Planned or impulsive?

[entropy]

entropy, Subject: Planned or impulsive? Tue May 11, 2010 11:50 pm

I think most folks believe that Zodiac carefully planned out the murder of Paul Stine, perhaps not Stine specifically but that he planned to murder whatever cabbie he picked up that night en route to what most presume was an escape vehicle parked near Washington & Cherry Sts. I've always wondered why, if this was a planned murder, why Zodiac created such a risky and utterly complicated plan.

The Zodiac master plan goes something like this:

1. Zodiac parks his car a few blocks away from where he plans to direct a cabbie in order to murder him at a pre-planned location in Presidio Heights.

2. Zodiac takes some form of public transportation to the area near Mason & Geary.

3. Zodiac hails a cab at Mason & Geary and directs the driver (Stine) to his pre-planned location.

4. Zodiac walks from the crime scene to his vehicle and drives away to a destination unknown.

Here's the problems I have with the theory:

- This plan offers multiple chances for eyewitnesses to observe Zodiac (dropping off his car, taking public transportation to Mason & Geary, hailing the cab at Mason & Geary, at the crime scene itself, walking to his car and getting into his getaway car). He was, afterall, observed rather closely at two of these destinations and nearly stopped by police walking away on Jackson St.

- He chose a very busy location at a very busy time to hail the cab, increasing the chances of being observed. I took the time to walk to Mason & Geary on a recent trip on Saturday evening and it is crawling with pedestrians. He also happened to choose a time (according to Graysmith) when the broadway play, HAIR, was letting out from a theater yards from the intersection he chose. Why did Zodiac choose to pick up his victim around 9 p.m. on a Saturday night in the heart of a busy theater district?

- Despite Zodiac's claims of having left no fingerprints, he clearly DID leave fingerprints and felt the need to wipe down Stine's cab to eliminate evidence. One would think that bringing gloves along would be a prerequisite for his plans. Zodiac's claim of wearing airplane glue on his fingertips clearly doesn't fit the evidence of multiple fingerprints on the cab or his behavior of wiping away evidence that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

If the murder of Paul Stine was planned, it was clearly planned incredibly poorly and only a lucky break (Fouke & Zelms believing they were looking for a black subject) kept Zodiac from being caught that night. If Zodiac was intent on killing someone in Presidio Heights, why not park there and wait for the first pedestrian to walk by? Was there any need to target a cab driver specifically? Why the complicated plan?

I honestly think it is very possible that Zodiac never planned to kill that night but, for whatever reason, saw the opportunity once he was picked up. Perhaps he was pissed off after seeing HAIR? Who knows? I also don't at all rule out the possibility that Zodiac escaped from the Stine scene completely on foot ala Mr. X's proposed escape or even by public transportation. Being full of blood might have hindered an escape by public transportation but then again Fouke did not notice any blood on Z walking away from the crime scene.

Thoughts?



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:03 am

Entropy, great questions. He certainly missed being caught by seconds that night. If it was planned, or spontaneous, it didnt go well in my opinion. Police got a sketch out of it, and in my opinion, its the reason Zodiac said he would no longer write to police, as he realized how close he was to getting caught.

I think its quite possible that Z killed another Cabbie, and did everything right this time after learning from his mistakes with Stine. See my post in the Stine section called:
"ANOTHER CABBIE MURDER"



Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:23 am

What i keep thinking about this also is what is the motive to shoot a cabbie at this location?

could there have been 2 working as a pair; one being the voyour (Mr. X) who lives in the area the other being the trigger man who escapes a pre planned route or hides in a house in the area? It would lend to Z knowing about the police searches....the other murders had a female involved where Stine is more a "in your face" cops/fear spreading murder.

something else crossed my mind about the clean get away; was there a sewer system in this area with manholes that someone may be able to crawl down if pre-planned?

Love this forum and freedom to think out loud...i cant tell you how many times I read all the great theories and feel like that is the one! gullable and late here....gooooooooood bye!



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 3:00 am

I think he planned it, he probably didn't plan it to include the kids across the street to spy him and phone the cops so quickly. Twelve days before there was a similar scenario with the cabbie Paul Hom taken to that area and then asked to go further and driven into the Presidio. He may have been the same man or the Zodiac could have copycatted this crime with the conclusion to his attack being death.
Cabbies will take you anywhere, he could have driven out to the middle of nowhere with him but chose instead SF. But I'm sure there are more desolate areas of the city he could have went to. Why pick one of the most affluent? Along with cabbies probably a prostitute is one of the few that would also go with someone willingly so he was making it easy for himself to get victims.

I do think it was planned (the kids f***ed it up for him, hence his threatening letter two days later). The question is not so much why the cabbie as why Presidio Heights I think? It would be interesting actually if there were any attacks at this time on prostitutes by someone that fits his description.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 5:04 am

I am 100% sure I had a post here. :suspect:



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 6:56 am

I am 100% sure I had a post here. :suspect:

I can tell you this, it was not removed.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:24 am

If he wasn't intending to kill anybody that night, he wouldn't have had a gun on his person.

The only possible 'killing on impulse' scenario I can entertain is that he was after some other target that night, but ended up shooting Paul on the fly.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:06 pm

Graysmith says he killed simply to get the shirt (or keys, wallet) to mail in and prove writer was killer. Could be a bit of truth in that, never grabbed anything form the previous victims.

And, despite a being a degree or so off, the PH location is about one radian from either BRS or LH, don't remember, using Mt. Diablo as the center. Maybe it's just coincidental.

Good topic.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:27 pm

Tahoe I think you had a post there, not 100% but quite sure.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 12:37 pm

Yah SP...it was about "Hair" and how bad it must have sucked. It was right after Entropy posted. No big deal...



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 2:10 pm

Hey Tahoe, re post it for us! I like all your comments an ideas!!*



bayarea60s, Subject: Z Plan Wed May 12, 2010 3:26 pm

Hard call on how much of this crime Z truly planned. We know for sure he had murder on his mind that evening, just don't know if he cared who it was, where it was, or any details. I personally feel he was a little more into planning his crimes than just on a fly taking a cab ride. But I have nothing really to prove that feeling, just I've always felt he was a calculated murderer, to some degree. Did he know of victim's somewhat beforehand? He could have and perhaps they weren't as random as they appeared to be. Then again they could have been completely random. He could have gotten a certain feeling that set him off to murder. Maybe he took the ride with Stine, with no thought of killing him, and then the voices in his head started telling him to kill Stine.
If he had totally planned the Stine murder, he may have had a very good plan, but it went awry because police showed up so closely to the time of the crime. How often do cops show up within a couple minutes of a murder? I doubt very often. Even in the face of the police all over him, he was still able to get away. Luck, yeah to some degree he was very lucky. But his ability to consistently elude cops cannot be undermind.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Hey Tahoe, re post it for us! I like all your comments an ideas!!*

It was a silly comment ( :afro: ) and probably took away from the serious subject at hand. It's all good...and I don't think you deleted in Morf.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 6:38 pm

Let's not forget that Zodiac stated that he was in disguise that night. So why would he care if he was seen? He was disguised.

But even if he wasn't disguised, the area around Union Square is absolutely teeming with cabs, and individuals getting in and out of them. Especially on a weekend night. It is such a common occurance that nobody notices, or cares, or would even remember it the next day after reading about a cabbie murder.

Now, before anyone wants to argue what I've posted, please name me all of the witnesses from downtown who came forward the next day and had seen the Zodiac.

Oops, there weren't any. Because nobody noticed.

/discussion.





, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:16 pm

I have always believed that LE was getting close to Zodiac because all three previous crimes were fairly near in the Vallejo/LB area. I believe that Zodiac killed in San Francisco to get the investigation away from Vallejo and make it a Bay Area murder spree. The letters after Stine stayed away from mentioning Vallejo and trying to widen the search for him, I believe He "may" have taken credit for the other murders to widen the search for him away from Vallejo.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:21 pm

"I have always believed that LE was getting close to Zodiac because all three previous crimes were fairly near in the Vallejo/LB area. I believe that Zodiac killed in San Francisco to get the investigation away from Vallejo and make it a Bay Area murder spree. The letters after Stine stayed away from mentioning Vallejo and trying to widen the search for him, I believe He "may" have taken credit for the other murders to widen the search for him away from Vallejo."

San Francisco is closer to Vallejo than Lake Berryessa is, so that makes no sense.

Also, Zodiac never referred to Lake Berryessa in any letter, either.

So, using your reasoning, Zodiac was trying to draw attention from Lake Berryessa, and not Vallejo.





, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 7:33 pm

Igloo anybody who knows the area would consider the Napa/LB area to be Vallejo's backyard, a place you went up to have a picnic. If you asked Vallejo residents i believe 99% would believe LB was in their backyard while SF was a crowded highway and crowded bridge away. In 1969 you can just drive right from Vallejo into Napa and up the hill into the LB area, it was reasonably close. i bet zodiac proably went up their as a kid and teenager frequently. There is a ferry today that takes you from Vallejo to Fishermans Wharf in SF which is several blocks from the Presidio and i thought that that could have been an escape route for Zodiac but i was told that that ferry service wasnt there in 1969.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:17 pm

Igloo anybody who knows the area would consider the Napa/LB area to be Vallejo's backyard, a place you went up to have a picnic. If you asked Vallejo residents i believe 99% would believe LB was in their backyard while SF was a crowded highway and crowded bridge away. In 1969 you can just drive right from Vallejo into Napa and up the hill into the LB area, it was reasonably close. i bet zodiac proably went up their as a kid and teenager frequently. There is a ferry today that takes you from Vallejo to Fishermans Wharf in SF which is several blocks from the Presidio and i thought that that could have been an escape route for Zodiac but i was told that that ferry service wasnt there in 1969.

Wow, lots of errors to deal with here.



Lake Berryessa didn't even exist until the early 1960s, so the idea Zodiac visited there "as a kid" would mean he was barely a teenager when he started murdering people. And it's not "up the hill" from anywhere. The drive to the lake is incredibly winding and mostly flat. What hill are you talking about? Does it have a name?

From Vallejo, just as many would take Highway 37 and the Golden Gate Bridge to San Francisco as would take I-80 and the Bay Bridge. You made it seem as if there is only one way to get there. Either way you take it is a shorter drive than going all the way to Lake Berryessa from Vallejo. And there was much less traffic back then.

The Ferry Building at Fisherman's Wharf is where the Vallejo ferry arrives, and it is not "several blocks" from the Presidio. Rather, it is more than 3.5 miles away.



bayarea60s, Subject: Wood Wed May 12, 2010 8:19 pm

I have no argument with what you posted. I think it makes perfectly good sense.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 8:33 pm

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!



bayarea60s, Subject: Z Travels Wed May 12, 2010 8:34 pm

Salus...

Vallejo to LB is about 41 miles, 1 hr/7 mins. driving time....

Vallejo to SF is about 31 miles, 42 mins. driving time.....

In '69, Vallejo to SF was about 1/2 hour drive....On a Saturday night say 8pm, no problem driving right into the city, 1/2 hour tops. You can't speed up the Vallejo to LB drive very much. It's a 2 lane road with continuous bends.

That of course is assuming Z was from Vallejo and needed to make the drive.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:12 pm

You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:21 pm

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!

Sorry if correcting your many mistakes is considered "nasty."



Perhaps you could try a little harder to get things right.





, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:23 pm

You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time

I have never been stuck on the Bay Bridge. I have been stuck at the Maze, but not the Bay Bridge.

Nonetheless, you seem to have a great deal of trouble understanding there was MUCH less traffic four decades ago, therefore is was quicker getting from point A to point B compared to today.





Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 12, 2010 9:36 pm

Salus...

Vallejo to LB is about 41 miles, 1 hr/7 mins. driving time....

Vallejo to SF is about 31 miles, 42 mins. driving time.....

In '69, Vallejo to SF was about 1/2 hour drive....On a Saturday night say 8pm, no problem driving right into the city, 1/2 hour tops. You can't speed up the Vallejo to LB drive very much. It's a 2 lane road with continuous bends.

That of course is assuming Z was from Vallejo and needed to make the drive.

Thanks Bay, you beat me to making a similar post, showing the miles and minutes of driving. And it's true in the good
old days you could zip to SF in no time. Even now IF and the word is IF, you can get there semi fast IT there is no traffic.



bayarea60s, Subject: Salus Wed May 12, 2010 9:40 pm

Salus Asked:

"You try to get over the Bay Bridge in that time"....

Back in '69? Many many times. No problem making that. Bridge wasn't an issue. Again that is presuming Z needed to make that drive at all.



Boilermaker, Subject: Interesting frm Toschi intvw on Stine murder from TV site Thu May 13, 2010 12:27 am

Post subject:

My latest Q&A from a most generous Duffy Jennings and an equally generous Det.Toschi. I am very grateful for their help and I hope this helps everyone's understanding of the case.

Sorry it took awhile as they don''t get together every day and I have to cycle back and make requests,etc.!

Did Det.Toschi believe Z was seated in front or in the rear seat of the cab?
Det.Toschi says Z entered from the 'north side of Geary into the front passenger side' of the cab and that he was "never" in the rear seat. From his work he has 'always believed that Z was in the front seat the entire time.'

Comment.We do know that when the teens first saw Z and Stine they were in the front seat 'struggling' or 'fighting.' We know, of course, Z was cutting a portion of Stine's shirt for future letter/crime verification.

Then they saw Z, after wiping down the inside front area of the cab,get out and start wiping the cab down and he then went around to the driver's side doing the same thing.
We never find him wiping down the rear of the cab where he would have spent considerble time until they reached Washington/Maple/Cherry Sts.

No one saw Z in the rear seat,so until other evidence would prove otherwise it is safe as per Det.Toschi to place Z in the front seat the entire death trip.

Duffy says that in his account of the cab murder in "Great Crimes of San Francisco"he agreed with Det.Toschi by having Z entering the front passenger side and staying there the whole trip.

Did the Police Artist sit with Fouke and Zelms for the Z composite?

Det.Toschi said the artist did, "indeed talk with both officers for the sketch,and that he and Armstrong did file the inter-departmental memo you[HD] mention. Both officers were "extremely upset after reading the newspapers,"said Toschi."They felt they had very likely encountered our killer and they were very embarrassed about it."

Comment.The inter-departmental memo was filed after both Dets. received it from SFPD. This memo came from the interview of Officers Zelms and Fouke and then it was sent as the aforementioned memo to Dets.Toschi and Armstrong,and they, in turn, filed it. It was confidential.
It stated what the two Patrolmen had seen 10/11/69 ,etc.,and that both Officers were "shattered and filled with despair"as given by GS as per T. This initial interview was done 10/16/69 at 9AM,according to GS.

Det.confirms both Patrolmen actually sat with the SFPD Artist and helped produce their version of what the WMA looked like. Det.T is firm on this. He was closely connected to the case we were not.
The sitting session was not based just on Fouke's recall,but Zelms added to the description too. This goes along with what Officer Eric's widow told me and that was that Officer Zelms took a 'folded up' Z composite poster with him on each patrol or shift so that if he ever saw him "again" he 'might recognize him.' She still has this poster.

Det.Toschi read that confidential memo so he knew what was said during the private interview.

I know Officer Fouke has said he does not remember (T does!) speaking with Det.Toschi,but that is not the point. It was that memo that gave all the info as to what both men saw that night.

'Dave has said that the Artist has retired to Mexico.'Det.Toschi knew and worked with this Artist,of course!
This was the same man Sandy spoke to by phone some years ago. See her account of this conversation and his confirming he did the Z composite with both Officers as found on my site.

Of course,we know that Officer Fouke has said he did not sit with the Artist at any time.
He has also said he did know if Officer Zelms saw the WMA that night!

Did Det.Toschi see the Riverside desk?

Det.T said he and Sherwood Morrill, "...went to Riverside together to examine it [the desk-poem] personally. The writing was upside down as you [HD] noted. Dave said he was "very suprised that Morrill' was able to match the writing on the desk with Zodiac, given that it was on wood rather than on paper. "

"Upside down" meaning it was on the desk table's bottom surface- not on top of the desk's surface as I was told several times by the very photographer who took the original photos! I took heat for this,but the photographer who was a professional that took the pictures was there I was not.
He told me it was on the "unfinished" side or bottom. The top was varnished he said. He would not budge at all on this fact. He told me if I examined the photos I could see that the wood grains where the poem was written or etched did not stand out as did the top or varnished side.

He remembers being called to RCC and having to take shots at 'different angles' because the poem was on the 'bottom surface' of the desk top rather than the top itself.

Det.Toschi is not saying that he was "surprised" Morrill made a positive ID to Z's writing per se,but that he was able to do it from wood! Of course,the man was a very experienced Expert and world authority on Zodiac's writing;and that's part of their training as not everything is written on paper,of course.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 12:31 am

Someone sit all these cops down at the same table already. All these contradictory stories are maddening.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 12:33 am

Nacht, I found out from a very respected LE source that to this day, SFPD refuses to share the possible Zodiac DNA with anyone, even fellow law enforcement! They have to send it to SFPD. So the jurisdictional, ego and other BS issues continue!



tracers, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 1:51 am

Igloo dont get nasty im not your husband fight with him!!!

Salus, a totally inappropriate comment. We are looking for actual arguments here, not sexist retorts. Woodenigloo provided a rational response to your post, and you should have responded in kind.

And I agree with Nacht--all these differing accounts from different members of LE ARE maddening!



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 2:23 am

Post subject:

My latest Q&A from a most generous Duffy Jennings and an equally generous Det.Toschi. I am very grateful for their help and I hope this helps everyone's understanding of the case.

Sorry it took awhile as they don''t get together every day and I have to cycle back and make requests,etc.!

Did Det.Toschi believe Z was seated in front or in the rear seat of the cab?
Det.Toschi says Z entered from the 'north side of Geary into the front passenger side' of the cab and that he was "never" in the rear seat. From his work he has 'always believed that Z was in the front seat the entire time.'

Comment.We do know that when the teens first saw Z and Stine they were in the front seat 'struggling' or 'fighting.' We know, of course, Z was cutting a portion of Stine's shirt for future letter/crime verification.

Then they saw Z, after wiping down the inside front area of the cab,get out and start wiping the cab down and he then went around to the driver's side doing the same thing.
We never find him wiping down the rear of the cab where he would have spent considerble time until they reached Washington/Maple/Cherry Sts.

No one saw Z in the rear seat,so until other evidence would prove otherwise it is safe as per Det.Toschi to place Z in the front seat the entire death trip.

Duffy says that in his account of the cab murder in "Great Crimes of San Francisco"he agreed with Det.Toschi by having Z entering the front passenger side and staying there the whole trip.

Did the Police Artist sit with Fouke and Zelms for the Z composite?

Det.Toschi said the artist did, "indeed talk with both officers for the sketch,and that he and Armstrong did file the inter-departmental memo you[HD] mention. Both officers were "extremely upset after reading the newspapers,"said Toschi."They felt they had very likely encountered our killer and they were very embarrassed about it."

Comment.The inter-departmental memo was filed after both Dets. received it from SFPD. This memo came from the interview of Officers Zelms and Fouke and then it was sent as the aforementioned memo to Dets.Toschi and Armstrong,and they, in turn, filed it. It was confidential.
It stated what the two Patrolmen had seen 10/11/69 ,etc.,and that both Officers were "shattered and filled with despair"as given by GS as per T. This initial interview was done 10/16/69 at 9AM,according to GS.

Det.confirms both Patrolmen actually sat with the SFPD Artist and helped produce their version of what the WMA looked like. Det.T is firm on this. He was closely connected to the case we were not.
The sitting session was not based just on Fouke's recall,but Zelms added to the description too. This goes along with what Officer Eric's widow told me and that was that Officer Zelms took a 'folded up' Z composite poster with him on each patrol or shift so that if he ever saw him "again" he 'might recognize him.' She still has this poster.

Det.Toschi read that confidential memo so he knew what was said during the private interview.

I know Officer Fouke has said he does not remember (T does!) speaking with Det.Toschi,but that is not the point. It was that memo that gave all the info as to what both men saw that night.

'Dave has said that the Artist has retired to Mexico.'Det.Toschi knew and worked with this Artist,of course!
This was the same man Sandy spoke to by phone some years ago. See her account of this conversation and his confirming he did the Z composite with both Officers as found on my site.

Of course,we know that Officer Fouke has said he did not sit with the Artist at any time.
He has also said he did know if Officer Zelms saw the WMA that night!

Did Det.Toschi see the Riverside desk?

Det.T said he and Sherwood Morrill, "...went to Riverside together to examine it [the desk-poem] personally. The writing was upside down as you [HD] noted. Dave said he was "very suprised that Morrill' was able to match the writing on the desk with Zodiac, given that it was on wood rather than on paper. "

"Upside down" meaning it was on the desk table's bottom surface- not on top of the desk's surface as I was told several times by the very photographer who took the original photos! I took heat for this,but the photographer who was a professional that took the pictures was there I was not.
He told me it was on the "unfinished" side or bottom. The top was varnished he said. He would not budge at all on this fact. He told me if I examined the photos I could see that the wood grains where the poem was written or etched did not stand out as did the top or varnished side.

He remembers being called to RCC and having to take shots at 'different angles' because the poem was on the 'bottom surface' of the desk top rather than the top itself.

Det.Toschi is not saying that he was "surprised" Morrill made a positive ID to Z's writing per se,but that he was able to do it from wood! Of course,the man was a very experienced Expert and world authority on Zodiac's writing;and that's part of their training as not everything is written on paper,of course.

Thanks Boilermaker for posting this. Credit for this FINE research goes out to Howard aka Bruce here on our site! Also Credit for it being found on Tom's site!* This is very a great post on Howards part, and he found out some things we all wanted the answers to. Many Thanks to Howard aka Bruce!



MAZZY, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 2:27 am

Does anyone know if the cab that Stine drove had a # or medallion with the # on it with the keys. What color was the walllet? Or what style wallet?



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:36 am

It might not be relevant but I seem to remember the cab having a plate (license plate?) ending with the numbers 413.

This just caught my eye at the time because it's 314 backwards and PI (3.14) possibly seems to feature in some of Z's writings. Also, not forgetting that 3/14 is the birthdate of a popular POI too!



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:37 am

Thanks Boilermaker for posting this. Credit for this FINE research goes out to Howard aka Bruce here on our site! Also Credit for it being found on Tom's site!* This is very a great post on Howards part, and he found out some things we all wanted the answers to. Many Thanks to Howard aka Bruce!

Agreed. I'm with him on the first two points. So what does Z riding in the front seat mean? That Stine recognized him? I'm not all that familiar with basic cab etiquette. I've ridden in the front seats of cabs but only when the back seat was full.

I also feel certain F&Z helped with the amended wanted poster as I mentioned a few posts prior.

The last point, the desk handwriting, is the tough one for me. Yes, Morrill was an expert and I'm certainly not, however others who were experts disagreed with him. No three stroke K (being written on a surface not conducive to flowing movements, you would think a three stroke would be in order), no slanted double back d, one candy cane f and some low crossed ts. A huge factor too, as it would place Z at the campus.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu May 13, 2010 9:54 am

If Z was a Vallejo/Napa boy then I can still see why he could commit a crime in San Fran to complicate the investigation.

San Fran might be quicker to reach from Vallejo than LB is but the sheer quantity of inhabitants and the amount of visitors passing through San Fran would make it a nightmare for investigators looking for a nutjob. Chuck in a Southern CA connection later on and the investigation now becomes a state wide search for a guy who kills women, men and couples in daylight or at night rather than guy who shoots couples necking in lovers lanes out in the boonies.

All of a sudden, no person in California is safe and LE's investigation becomes colossal. Very shrewd of Z...



bayarea60s, Subject: Quag Thu May 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Quag....

Yes it was...It got him just what he wanted. When Stine happened it enveloped the entire Bay Area, and all knew they were at risk and that Z could show up anywhere.



Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:30 am

I thought it odd that Z would ride in the front seat also....I dont believe Stines log ever mentioned additional riders on this cab ride; could it be that the 2 knew eachother?
Also - shooting Stine in the back of the head would have involved Stine looking out his side window or Z forcing him to turn his head..just thinking out loud and find this another nuance to the case



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:34 am

As I understand it, Paul got shot in the right side of the head, not the back. In front of his right ear.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:49 am

As I understand it, Paul got shot in the right side of the head, not the back. In front of his right ear.

So that would mean the front passenger seat. Honestly there is no protocol of where to sit. Seated so close to the front of his right ear.



Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:54 am

Thanks Nacht - that makes logical sense then from him sitting in front passenger seat...probably wanted to be as close as possible + waste no time in getting his piece of shirt et al before taking off



bayarea60s, Subject: Nach.... Fri May 14, 2010 8:14 am

Thanks for the post on where Stine bullet entered. Says right there in medical report, "Anterial of right ear"..Been studying case for 41 years and just now figuring out where Stine wound was? Pretty sad of me. Read that report a thousand times and until you just brought it up, I just assumed I knew what it meant. I didn't. According to that terminology then Stine was shot below right temple.



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:40 am

You're welcome, folks! 'Anterior' means 'toward the front' or 'forward of' in medical jargon.



entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:44 am

Appreciate all of the good feedback. I'm not sure that I agree with the premise that because Zodiac was carrying a weapon that night, he must have been planning to kill someone. We know he owned several weapons and he was, afterall, already wanted on multiple counts of murder. He may have brought along his weapon only when he planned to attack someone or he may have carried it concealed at all times for self-protection or in case police tried to take him into custody. Who knows? Just saying it wouldn't be that uncommon for a wanted fugitive with a collection of multiple guns to be carrying one at any given time.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 8:52 am

I wholeheartedly agree with you there, Entropy. The Lake B event was obviously planned but this crime was not a couple and not in a lover's retreat so there's every chance that Z just lost the plot with Stine which is why he had to quickly rub out all his fingerprints and ended up being seen by just about everyone in the area. Very sloppy indeed.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 9:57 am

Yes, he could have been carrying the gun already, and he could have found his way back to his car where he hailed the cab (if that's the case). So, on an impulse, why the Washington and Maple address? Did he pick it out of thin air? Did he already know it was a quiet neighborhood with easy park access? Why not say Jackson? Did he live close enough to easily walk home?



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 11:35 am

If it wasn't a planned attack, this is my take on what could have happened:

Z was staying/living/etc somewhere around Washington/Cherry. On the way back for some reason or another (whether he got the urge or Stine said something that upset him) Z decides he is going to murder Stine. Obviously he wouldn't want to do it on his own block, outside his place, etc but he can't divert Stine too far away as he has to walk back to his place after the kill.

As they near Z's destination, he asks Stine to drive on just one more block to Washington/Maple and as he's pulling up, Z shoots him point blank. Z's thinking on his feet now so takes the wallet and keys (to make it look like a robbery?) and sticks on Stine's glasses as a makeshift getaway disguise. He knows he has to quickly wipe down parts of the cab as he wasn't really planning the murder and has no doubt touched the interior and the door outside where he hailed him. He hasn't brought anything with him so he grabs Stine, pulls him over towards him and tears off the back of his shirt. He wipes down everything he can remember touching and whilst outside he realises that there are lights on in the house opposite and people in the window.

He obviously now doesn't want to head off in the direction of his place as he thinks people could be watching him, so he heads in the other direction down Cherry Street to go make his way around the block unseen to his original destination. Of course, this would take him east along Jackson street, which is exactly where Foukes sees him at this very time. Thankfully, there's been the mother of all cock ups and LE are looking for a black guy so Z keeps cool and carries on to his place where he gets to observe the aftermath.

He can't believe his luck that he has eluded the police, got them checking out the Presidio thinking he had headed there and he also has some proof to send in to the paper to rub their noses in it. It's a great result for him but he's annoyed at being so impulsive and almost getting caught so we see an immediate end to his run of killings.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 14, 2010 12:51 pm

Planned. By why so soon after LB?



entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 3:11 am

Does anyone have any specific thoughts on the basic question: Why Mason & Geary? Whether or not Z planned to kill that night, this spot just seems to be a very strange spot to pick up a potential victim. Z could have hailed a cab anywhere, at any time, and directed it to his location yet he chose to do so from a busy location in the city at one of the busiest possible times. Was this just a random choice? Planned as an easy spot to find a cab? Was Z taking in a show or otherwise engaged somewhere nearby? Why expose himself to so many potential eyewitnesses? Why does entropy ask so many rhetrical questions?

Here's a good photo of the spot, FWIW, courtesy of Vallejo Dave at ZK.com:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/23/380.jpg



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 6:41 am

Maybe he had a hotel there or something, and just checked out. Maybe he did see a show. I definitely think he had a car stashed near the Stine scene, or a "safehouse" that he could hide in (apartment,hotel,etc). I definitely think he planned it all.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 6:47 am

The strange choice of pick-up point is partly why I don't think it was planned. Until this murder, Zodiac was a guy who liked to creep around secluded areas picking off couples. However, for the Stine killing he gets a cab from a busy downtown area on a weekend where anyone could have seen him getting in and then almost bungles everything by seemingly leaving prints everywhere, has to hack off the victim's clothing in a rush to clean the prints off and then gets seen by kids and police as he's escaping.

If it was planned, I think he'd have been a lot more careful and would have worn gloves throughout, called the cab from a quieter area with less passers by, picked a later murder time when there'd be less chance of witnesses looking out of their windows, etc

Of course, he could have been wearing a disguise, planted false fingerprints, etc as part of a planned misdirection but I don't believe this. I think he lost control on this one particular occasion which is why he seemed to imminently crawl back under his rock and stop killing people for at least a while as he realised he was getting sloppy and would be caught if he wasn't too careful.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 9:09 am

Just a guess Entropy, but isn't a busy place sometimes a good place to remain anonymous? At least that's what they do in the movies, the kidnapper exchanges the girl for the money in a crowded subway. Most likely no one will take notice of someone hopping in a cab at Mason and Geary, but if it happened in a quieter area one might.

Maybe the bus he hopped on after leaving his car near the Presideo went by M&G and it just looked like a good place to catch a cab.

That said, no reason he couldn't have planned the thing prior and also taken in a show waiting for dark.



Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon May 17, 2010 10:43 am

I don´t think Zodiac ever performed any kind of criminal activity unless VERY well planed.

I think the planing, creating ideas/consepts for the murders and correspondings ect. was a HUGE part of his "game".

I also think he was a very controled and perfectionistic individual.



bayarea60s, Subject: Foreginer Mon May 17, 2010 3:46 pm

Foreigner Stated....

"I don´t think Zodiac ever performed any kind of criminal activity unless VERY well planed.
I think the planing, creating ideas/consepts for the murders and correspondings ect. was a HUGE part of his "game".
I also think he was a very controled and perfectionistic individual."

I totally agree with you there Foreigner. He was good enough to win the game against LE. Many in LE devoted their life to this case and they weren't used to losing, yet they could never capture this guy. So we should never underestimate Z's inteliigence.
He knew exactly what he was doing. So when we debate like finger prints, it's kind of laughable to me. Really? Does anyone really think Z would be that stupid? I don't, and I think the record speaks to support that the prints were a bust. They lifted lots of prints in Napa and lots in SF, but LE never announces a match between the 2 sites. I have to assume cause there wasn't a match. And if there isn't a match then you have to throw out all of Napa Prints, or all of SF prints, or maybe both, and not waste your time.



entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 4:42 am

Let's not forget that Zodiac stated that he was in disguise that night. So why would he care if he was seen? He was disguised.

But even if he wasn't disguised, the area around Union Square is absolutely teeming with cabs, and individuals getting in and out of them. Especially on a weekend night. It is such a common occurance that nobody notices, or cares, or would even remember it the next day after reading about a cabbie murder.

Now, before anyone wants to argue what I've posted, please name me all of the witnesses from downtown who came forward the next day and had seen the Zodiac.

Oops, there weren't any. Because nobody noticed.

/discussion.

Igloo,

Agreed... perhaps the busy area around Union Square offered Z a sense of anonymity. SOMEONE almost certainly saw him hail Stine's cab that night but probably had no recollection of seeing it because it seemed utterly normal in the context of a busy Saturday night in San Francisco. Yes, Z claimed to have worn a disguise. He claimed to have worn airplane glue on his fingertips. He claimed to have left "false clews" at the Stine scene in which he was observed wiping down the cab. I think it's relevant to this thread to consider Z's own responses to the claims by police that they had a viable composite sketch and fingerprints and that Z's time as an UNSUB was numbered.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/BombLetter1.html

I've always viewed Z as a compulsive liar, or at least someone who would offer misdirection any time he felt threatened. The Bus Bomb letter, IMO, is pure misdirection offered because he knew he screwed up royally at the Stine scene and was very nearly caught. He was very nearly caught because of either incredibly poor planning or... perhaps a lack of planning, which is the rhetorical question offered by this thread.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 12:35 pm

Just a guess Entropy, but isn't a busy place sometimes a good place to remain anonymous?

Absolutely! Who gives a rats-ass about some guy getting into a cab in the middle of busy SF? If Zodiac "called in a pick-up", well...that's not good.

He needed to be somewhere where he could just hop in a cab and no one would be the wiser. imo..



bayarea60s, Subject: Entropy Wed May 19, 2010 2:34 pm

It could be that Z didn't even need to hail a cab, but just walk up to one parked in a cab zone in the area. And if in fact Z sat in the front seat, that to me would be a huge revelation. No one sits in the front seat of a cab, unless invited to do so by the cabbie and cabbies don't invite strangers to sit up front with them. Think of all the cabs you've ever seen in service. How many times have you ever seen 1 passenger in a cab riding in the front seat? I grew up in NYC, actually Brooklyn, but saw millions of cabs in my life there I'm sure, and I don't recall ever seeing one passenger in a cab in the front seat.



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 3:18 pm

How do we know that Z was riding in the front seat? I think I missed that. Why couldnt he have shot Stine, then moved up to the front seat, where he was then witnessed by the kids at the window?



bayarea60s, Subject: Morf, Z in Front Seat? Wed May 19, 2010 3:44 pm

Morf...

It has been reported on Tom's site recently that connection was made with Detective Toschi by Duffy Jennings (Paul Avery's replacement on the Chronicle) and he stated that Z shot Stine from the front seat.. I've always felt until now that Z was just sitting in back seat and shot Paul from there. I always thought (and incorrectly for some 40 years) that Paul was shot in the head behind his left ear. In fact the autopsy report states Paul was shot in the Anterior of the right ear. In laymen terms that says in front of the right ear, like 2" below the temple area. So that very much supports what Toschi has stated. If Z shoots Paul from the back seat Stine would have had to turn his head to the right, which could have happened. However, if Z is in front seat then Z simply shoots Paul in right side of his head.
I'm sure Toschi must have had even more forensic information than what is stated in report. I would think as the detective he would solely be basing his findings on forensic fact, and not just his feelings. That's what has recently been reported anyway.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 7:39 pm

Im surprised that zodiac took time to wipe things down , move over the body in the middle of a big city. Zodiac never showed in any of his killings fear or the need to get away as soon as possible. He was either soo sure of himself or a lunatic , i believe he had confidence. Also could Zodiac not gotten into a car or an apartment and just kept walking to other areas of town turning a block here and there.



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed May 19, 2010 7:46 pm

Morf...

It has been reported on Tom's site recently that connection was made with Detective Toschi by Duffy Jennings (Paul Avery's replacement on the Chronicle) and he stated that Z shot Stine from the front seat.. I've always felt until now that Z was just sitting in back seat and shot Paul from there. I always thought (and incorrectly for some 40 years) that Paul was shot in the head behind his left ear. In fact the autopsy report states Paul was shot in the Anterior of the right ear. In laymen terms that says in front of the right ear, like 2" below the temple area. So that very much supports what Toschi has stated. If Z shoots Paul from the back seat Stine would have had to turn his head to the right, which could have happened. However, if Z is in front seat then Z simply shoots Paul in right side of his head.
I'm sure Toschi must have had even more forensic information than what is stated in report. I would think as the detective he would solely be basing his findings on forensic fact, and not just his feelings. That's what has recently been reported anyway.

Certainly interesting. It doesnt prove Z knew Stine. He could have jumped in and said "this is a holdup, drive", or something along those lines.



bayarea60s, Subject: Morf13... Wed May 19, 2010 9:44 pm

Of course it doesn't prove that Stine knew Z. And I haven't heard enough from Toschi himself on this issue to determine that Z was in the front seat. In fact it has been 41 years, there have been books written, movies made where Toschi has given his input as to the Stine murder and I don't recall Toschi ever correcting the depictions of the crime. And to my knowledge all reports have always been shooter in rear seat. It could be as easy to explain as when Stine turns to tell passenger what the Fare is he gets shot. Again I'd like to hear more from Toschi on this.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Fri May 21, 2010 11:01 am

Wonder if the rear door handles yielded any clues. There should have been either the prints of the prior occupant, Z prints matching the front door area, prior prints smudged by Z's gloved or masked hand, handles wiped clean by Z, etc..

I don't see why Z could not have shot Stine in the temple from the back seat. Could have put the gun to his head at Maple and had him drive the extra block that way, or pulled it and shot just when Stine was shifting into park. Had the gun come from Z's pocket in the front seat, Stine would have more notice that it was headed for his temple than if coming from behind him, even if just a second more.

Guess it boils down to if a front seated Z knowing Stine, then there's the question of how he knew he'd be at the Mason and Geary location on what was supposed to be his night off. Graysmith says they figured out the M&G location based on the meter reading in the cab. Was there another source (dispatch) that definitely put him at that location?



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:26 pm

i believe that Paul Stines murder was a planned murder that went bad somehow. It would make sense if they were suppose to go to one address but really drove a block or two. Maybe there was a person walking down the street, and the Z didn't want witnesses (which he never has had before)



bayarea60s, Subject: Auntie... Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:35 am

I've always wondered if the infamous dog walker was coming down on Maple, south of Washington, Or coming right down on Washington towards Maple.

[traveller1st]

, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:01 am

Bay Area I've often wondered why the dog walker is so prominent. I could see Pellessetti asking him questions as a potential witness, but if he was paying particular attention to him, Why? Was he wearing similar clothing, did he have a crew cut, was he dishevelled, have spots of blood. Did he feel the man was too far away from his house to be meerly out with the dog (I'm in danger every day if that's the case). Did he actually have the dog there or was he out and about with the lead. Was he belligerent towards Armand? Something was amiss with him.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:26 am

Here is the full Fouke/Pelissetti interview transcript from the DVD so we have it here. AP says that being older and much thinner than the description, he simply asked him if he had seen anything. The Mr. X investigators have told us that AP actually went further and asked the dog walker for ID, and that it was that of Mr. X. Why would AP do this when he felt certain the guy was not Z? Perhaps just routine, or for later contact.

Graysmith thinks that the dog walker was the reason Stine was forced to go another block, in which case he would not be the perp, and of course AP knew none of this at the time.

____________________


Pelissetti — I was the first officer that responded to the scene. I was working with an officer who's since deceased, Frank Peda, an excellent police officer, and we responded to a radio call. Told us that a cab driver was being robbed, and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry and Washington streets, in Pacific Heights. We, fortunately, were very close and responded to that corner and we were able to do so, red light and siren, at 9:55 at night, and got there very quickly. I parked the car in the middle of the intersection, facing the yellow cab that was sitting a little back from the corner of Cherry Street, on Washington, facing west on Washington. There were three children that were heading over to that car. They weren't too far away, but I'd say a good 15 or 16 feet away. I made the assumption that they were coming from the home on the corner and I was correct, and I herded them immediately back to that alcove. I didn't know if the suspect was still there. The description that came out over the air was of an NMA, negro male adult, at the time. The only person that couldn't given that information would've been the child who called it in to police dispatch. Whether somebody wrote it incorrectly and the child actually said, "White guy," I don't know.

Fouke — My regular partner was off. I don't recall the reason why he was not working that night. However, Eric Zelms was assigned as my partner that night. We were patrolling the eastern side of the Richmond district, going northbound on Presidio Avenue. We had passed Washington Street when a broadcast came in of a shooting at Cherry and Washington Street.

Pelissetti — Went over to the cab, I would see Mr. Paul Stein, who was slumped over the front seat with his head into the well on the passenger side in the front. There was blood all over the cab, on him, and I was 99.9% certain he was dead. And it was at that point that I retook the description of the suspect. And that's when I was told it was a white male. I couldn't get to the radio fast enough at that point to let everybody else know. The kids had told me that whoever had done this crime left the cab, went out the door, seemed to be wiping the cab down, reaching into the cab and then ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction, kind of towards the Presidio. I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn't get my head blown off. Got down to the corner of Jackson Street, had to make a choice. I was on the east side of the street, so I turned right to the east, went up in that direction. I couldn't see anybody in either direction, nor could I see anybody scaling a wall into the Presidio. I got all the way down to the next corner which was Maple. Decision number two, which way to go? Looked to the left, toward the Presidio, saw absolutely nothing. It was much darker there. I figured the chance of finding somebody was almost nil. I turned to the right and I saw a man walking his dog. He was somewhat older than the description I had, a whole lot thinner, and he had absolutely no blood on his clothes. I asked that gentleman if he saw anybody walking in the area and he told me, "No."

Fouke — We turned West on Jackson Street. As we approached Maple Street, I noticed, on the North side of the street, a white male adult, dressed in a Derby, or three-quarter, waist-length jacket with elastic at the waist and on the cuffs, and regular flap-down collars. He had a crew cut, he was wearing rust-colored, pleated trousers, which were unusual for the time. He had on engineering-type boots, low-cut shoe, three-quarters of the way in length, tan in color. The initial radio description of the suspect was that of a black male, 5'10" or something like that. Seeing that it was a white male in an affluent neighborhood, walking along the street, we didn't think it was a suspect. So we proceeded to the next block, which was Jackson and Cherry. Turned southbound on Cherry Street, saw Armond Pelissetti, one of the officers who had responded directly to the scene.

Pelissetti — At that point, Officer Donald Fouke, who was accompanied by what I believe was a rookie officer, Eric Zelms, at the time, pulled up very quickly in their police car, called out to me, did I see anybody? Did I know anything about where the suspect could be? I told him, "No."

Fouke — He stopped us and said that he was looking for the white male that had just gone down the street. There was a little conversation about what the initial description was, and he said, "No, he was a white male." I then used a slang term and said, "Oh! That was the suspect."

Pelissetti — He did not mention to me that he had seen anybody at that point, or had stopped anybody.

Fouke — We turned around to get to the Presidio. And our reasoning, my reasoning, on that, was because turning down Maple would lead through the Presidio wall, directly into Julius Kahn playground, which had a lot of foliage. So we turned and went down looking for the alleged suspect, in the area of Julius Kahn playground. Nothing was observed.

Pelissetti — I got back to the scene, and it was some time shortly thereafter, that the ambulance crew, the coroner, a fire truck, Inspector Walt Kracke of the homicide detail, and then about three or four minutes, five minutes thereafter, Inspector Dave Toschi and Bill Armstrong, two of the best, arrived at the scene. I briefed Inspector Toschi, who seemed to be taking the lead on the investigation, as we walked over to the car. I assured him nobody had contaminated the scene, and then I went about uniform business and let him take care of his detective work.

Fouke — Well, until I saw him, probably about 35 or 40 miles an hour on a 25-mile-an-hour street. Slowed down as we passed him. I don't know, still rolling. Saw that it's a white male, step on the gas. Five, ten, fifteen seconds tops from first spotting him till passing him.

Pelissetti — I spoke to Officer Fouke later that evening and I was unaware that he had stopped anybody. Black, white or any other color. However, in subsequent conversations with him, he told me that he did stop somebody.

Fouke — We never stopped the man. We never talked to him. That is an emphatic statement by me. I wouldn't make the denial.

Pelissetti — He told me he saw a man walking by and that he asked him, "Did you see anybody go by?" The person said, "No."

Fouke — One month later, when the composite drawing came out at Richmond station, and was posted on the wall, he looked similar to the man that I had seen on October 11th. I then wrote a scratch, in a departmental memorandum, to my lieutenant to forward to homicide division, so that they would have the additional information, about the appearance of the suspect.

Pelissetti — I believe that Fouke would have been honest, but that scratch and what he told me do not coincide. It seemed Officer Fouke, in that amount of time, felt that he had stopped the Zodiac.

Fouke — We did not stop the Zodiac. We didn't stop anyone. I wish Eric Zelms were alive today to tell you so.

Pelissetti — Well, it's very hard to say whether he did nor not. It would be a point of conjecture at this point, and he seemed quite upset.

Fouke — It is purported in the work of Zodiac Unmasked, that I tearfully told Inspector Toschi, "You know, Dave, we could have been killed that night." I never spoke to Toschi, that I personally know of or remember. He may have been the inspector who came out and asked me about the composite drawing, and I told him the suspect was older and heavier. Beyond that, I had no further contact with the investigation.

Pelissetti — Well, it just so happens that area is extremely well-lit, and I cannot imagine his not seeing the shine of blood on the clothing if it had been Zodiac. I feel bad for him, if he believes that was the Zodiac. I don't think it was.

Fouke — I would like to say he made, the Zodiac made eye contact with us, but I can't picture it. I remember seeing his eyes. I couldn't tell you what color they were. It was dark enough that his eyes were concealed. But you could say he sort of looked down. Perhaps this lumbering gait, sort of stumbling along, like a semi-limp, might have come up in my mind, because he was putting his head down when he spotted the police car, and turned into the entranceway of a house. By entranceway I mean stairs leadingup that are concrete to a path that leads to a front door. Never saw him get to the top of the stairs. You want the address of that residence? . . . Jackson Street. I never put it in the report and I don't think that I have told anyone. I didn't think about it in the report, because I assumed that he didn't live in the neighborhood, an upper middle-class neighborhood. I don't know if he lived there or he didn't live there. Let the inspectors follow through. I thought that's what I wrote in the scratch all these years.



bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:18 pm

Pel. said that this was the only person he saw on his search from Wash/Cherry to Jackson/Maple. So he was simply asking this guy, who he said was much older than kids description, if he'd seen anybody. He never stated he asked for ID. And I've often wondered what the term "much older" meant. Did it mean 70 or 40?
We know that Pel was on Z's heals, we know that Pel. travelled on south side of Jackson to Maple and didn't see anyone, he gets to maple and looks south and there's a man walking his dog. He stops him asks if he has seen anybody, dogwalker says no. He doesn't spend any more time with dogwalker and heads back up Jackson (heading west towards Cherry). About the time Pel. gets to Cherry Foulkes and Zelms roll up (they've just seen Z on N. side of Jackson heading east).

Let's say dogwalker is Z. That would mean he would have made it to somewhere, changed, picked up a dog, got to Maple and far enough up Maple to be heading back to Jackson when Pel. sees him. Then Pel. heads up to Cherry. Dogwalker ditches dog, changes his clothes again, heads back up Jackson on North side, turns around and comes walking down Jackson for Foulkes to see. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me why Z would do this? Just wants to be seen? Let alone timewise how is it even possible?

Another scenario could be as Z is heading down Cherry, Pel. rolls up overhead lights on, Z sees Pel. he gets to Jackson turns right and sees a flashlight shining down Cherry and hides himself on N. side of Jackson. He watches as Pel. passes on south side of Jackson, goes to Maple, comes back on up Jackson, again on south side, Z still in hiding, after Pel. passes him Z comes out of hiding heads down Jackson, heading east, and here comes Foulkes and Zelms heading west on Jackson.

The 2nd scenario makes a lot more sense to me. Inputs?



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:42 pm

Fouke — It is purported in the work of Zodiac Unmasked, that I tearfully told Inspector Toschi, "You know, Dave, we could have been killed that night." I never spoke to Toschi, that I personally know of or remember. He may have been the inspector who came out and asked me about the composite drawing, and I told him the suspect was older and heavier.

Well there you have it! He probably did contribute to the revised version.

But that would mean he did tell LE about his encounter, so why the wait for the detailed scratch? And why wasn't his input considered for the first composite?



bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe27 Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:57 pm

I recall picking up on an attitude from both Foulkes and Pel. that it was the detectives jobs to figure it out. So if Foulkes did speak with the detectives, which I'm sure they would have spoken with him, Foukes probably figured, "I did my job, I answered the detectives questions". Then come Nov. the heat had escalated and someone told Foukes to write the scratch.
I would think in generaL cops would write their scratch ASAP. What if perp was caught 6 months, 6 years later, Foulkes wouldbe totally going off memory with no notes to support his actions.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:04 pm

Bay--I guess I am wondering why then wasn't Fouke a part of the original composite? If he told them, wouldn't it make sense for his contribution? So if they say he wasn't--it's bad police work. Not that it would have made a difference.

Oh--scenerio 2 is better.



bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe27 Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:17 pm

"Bay--I guess I am wondering why then wasn't Fouke a part of the original composite? If he told them, wouldn't it make sense for his contribution? So if they say he wasn't--it's bad police work. Not that it would have made a difference."

I agree totally Tahoe in what you're saying. You would think Armstrong and Toschi would have been all over Foulkes, getting his input, and I'm sure they would have. If Foulkes let everyone or anyone know that he saw perp, you would think folks would be interested in speaking with him. Maybe Fouke's only told Pel., maybe he didn't even do that. Those 2 seem to have different recollections there. In this case to me, the evidence kinds of leans to what Pel. stated, that "Foulkes didn't tell him he saw anybody". It would seem if Foukes tells Pel., then Pel. is sure to relay that info to someone. But maybe not. Again, "leave it to the detectives to figure it out". How can detectives follow up on something that they don't have knowledge of?



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:51 pm

Graysmith wen on to say that SFPD was put into a very embarrassing position with the Negro suspect description and the F&Z encounter. Had it become public that Z would have been arrested (as is likely) had Fouke and Zelms gotten the correct description there wouldn't have been enough eggs in all of San Francisco to cover their faces.

I think a possible scenario was that the NMA and F&Z encounter were kept on the QT, and when the Chron published Z's letter telling the world he had been stopped by SFPD, Fouke for one reason or another wrote the scratch (dated same day), may have been told to so by the powers that be. Again just a possibility. In the yellow book (1987), GS says that even by then SFPD had not come up with an explanation of why they released a second composite.



entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:39 am

Fouke — It is purported in the work of Zodiac Unmasked, that I tearfully told Inspector Toschi, "You know, Dave, we could have been killed that night." I never spoke to Toschi, that I personally know of or remember. He may have been the inspector who came out and asked me about the composite drawing, and I told him the suspect was older and heavier.

Well there you have it! He probably did contribute to the revised version.

But that would mean he did tell LE about his encounter, so why the wait for the detailed scratch? And why wasn't his input considered for the first composite?

Good questions, Tahoe. I've also wondered whether Fouke's observations weren't the basis for the revised sketch but the revised sketch doesn't appear to be any older or heavier than the original sketch, does it? There are subtle changes to the lips, chin, eyes and hairline but none seem to represent input from Fouke. Or perhaps the sketch artist just failed to represent Fouke's input very well? Who knows? Then again, Fouke's age approximation (35-45 years) was repeated verbatim while his height estimate of 5' 10" seems to have been ignored.

I honestly never understood why a second composite sketch would be made based on a second meeting with the Presidio Heights teens. It would seem to me that the initial observations would tend to be much more accurate. Would they really be able to clarify their initial physical descriptions for the better several days after the fact? All things considered, I think it is very possible that Fouke's observations were considered for the revised sketch but perhaps Fouke wasn't even aware of this? The revised sketch may just comprise a combination of input from the Presidio Heights teens and Fouke.



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:30 am

My feeling is that the 1st sketch was from info supplied by the kids. This was then revised after more input by the kids and just possibly Foukes saw it and agreed it resembled the guy he saw.

I then feel that after info supplied from Foukes, the written description was adjusted to match more closely to Foukes' description - ie. heavyset and 35-45. I don't think that the artists wanted to start all over again with the sketch so possibly just added a few facial wrinkles and upped the age in the description. So in summary we end up with 2 sketches based on the kids with some extra detail and revised description chucked in as an afterthought due to Foukes' input which is why the composite doesn't necessarily match the description.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:37 am

Remember as well there is an FBI memo wherein they relay the info that an 8 year old witness identified someone as the possible killer of Stine. Presuming they contacted the kids in the following days and weeks, the 8 year old obviously picked someone from a photo line up. There could be a possibility that they utilized features from that photograph, eye shape, what have you. Not saying they did as there is no way of knowing but it could have been a possibility.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:05 pm

maybe he wanted to get caught in a way? without surrendering. and leaving fingerprints at a crime scene was the only way he could think of doing so. without being too obvious then it would be up to the "pigs" to stop him from killing.



bentley, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:38 pm

Well that's not a bad thought auntie. With the phone calls to the police a couple blocks from the police stations (at BRS and LB), the letter to Belli, possibly including his identity in ciphers, etc., you have to wonder if there wasn't just a little bit of that mixed in with the taunting. An arrest and trail would have given him more of the media attention he seemed to crave.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:41 pm

yea i believe he wanted to get caught in a way but wanted the police to do it, not him turning himself in, or him getting caught shooting them, i believe he wanted to have the police find a way to catch him without having him on the crime scene or him surrendering.

thanks bentley



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:05 am

I've often thought Zodiac may have liked (for lack of a better word) being hunted. Maybe it gave him some sort of rush...always looking over his shoulder.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:08 am

I've often thought Zodiac may have liked (for lack of a better word) being hunted. Maybe it gave him some sort of rush...always looking over his shoulder.

im sure that it did give him a rush always looking over his shoulder, and im sure it also gave him a rush that he was being hunted,
almost envied that HE was the one that the police and others couldn't find, but had enough clues to do so



bayarea60s, Subject: Tahoe Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:35 am

"I've often thought Zodiac may have liked (for lack of a better word) being hunted. Maybe it gave him some sort of rush...always looking over his shoulder."

Kind of like the thrill of "the game." Since he set the rules he must have loved it, at least for a while.

I don't agree with the notion that Z wanted to get caught, cause he enjoyed his game too much.



sandy betts, Subject: get caught ? Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:04 am

"I've often thought Zodiac may have liked (for lack of a better word) being hunted. Maybe it gave him some sort of rush...always looking over his shoulder."

Kind of like the thrill of "the game." Since he set the rules he must have loved it, at least for a while.

I don't agree with the notion that Z wanted to get caught, cause he enjoyed his game too much.

I have to agree with you bayarea60's, he loves the game way too much to want it to stop by getting caught.
If that were true it would have happened sometime durring the past 40 + yrs. He would have given us more clues to the key to solve his ciphers for starters.
He enjoys the attention he gets with each kill, even the ones we haven't figured out . I think that he could be responsible for some unsolved high profiled murders, in other states as well as in Calif. He may have written notes claiming some of them , but these notes were thought to be copy cat letters by LE.
Even the Christmas card that was sent to the S.F. Chron in 1990, was thought to be a fake, and shoved into a drawer until yrs later. Everyone has their own ideas why the Zodiac tried to re surface in 1990 . I have my own, that makes sense to only he and I, and perhaps you and a few others bayarea60s. That happens to be the yr that I went after my poi and took a picture of him, as did the person who was with me. Which infuriated him enough ,that he made his first recorded threat to me and the other person with me that day.
It made no sense to LE because the message was: X2 X2 X2 Ha ha ha. ( He and I knew what he meant.) It was shortly after that, that I was shot at through my bedroom window, missing my head by 2 inches. He wasn't playing a game that day ! Thank goodness his hands are very shaky now that he is older.



bayarea60s, Subject: Sandy Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:30 pm

I've always felt Z is responsible for much more than we know.

And I think the shot he fired at you, just another part of the game. A message just for you, directly at you, not intended to kill you, cause that would end the game with you. Do you recall the date of the shooting? Not that it's important, but it may be.

Who knows truly how this guy's wheels worked, obviously off-balanced and not the norm. But he said he selected people to be with him in the afterlife. Now what this selection process entailed again who knows. Did he really mean he thought of who was going to be with him in the afterlife and then set out to kill them specifically, I'm not so sure. Was he totally random? I'm not convinced of that either. But with you Sandy he has purposefully kept in contact, let you know he's around (when He wanted to), and selected to not include you in his afterlife selection process. Just my take on it of course.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:30 am

Z was most definitely not an impulsive killer. His actions showed signs that he thought everything out long and hard through fantasizing and probably traversed the areas that he committed killings in well. I know in the case for Gaik as a suspect, it was reported that Paul Stine knew him and the theory was that Stine became suspicious of Richard's connections to the case.



morf13, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:54 am

Z was most definitely not an impulsive killer. His actions showed signs that he thought everything out long and hard through fantasizing and probably traversed the areas that he committed killings in well. I know in the case for Gaik as a suspect, it was reported that Paul Stine knew him and the theory was that Stine became suspicious of Richard's connections to the case.

I agree...this guy kept a flashlight & gun with him in his car, so when he would find these victims parked in lovers lanes, he would be ready



entropy, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:32 am

Z was most definitely not an impulsive killer. His actions showed signs that he thought everything out long and hard through fantasizing and probably traversed the areas that he committed killings in well. I know in the case for Gaik as a suspect, it was reported that Paul Stine knew him and the theory was that Stine became suspicious of Richard's connections to the case.

I agree...this guy kept a flashlight & gun with him in his car, so when he would find these victims parked in lovers lanes, he would be ready

I suppose the title of this thread might actually offer a false dichotomy. You're right, of course, morf and FF, that Z seemed plenty prepared when he came across potential victims so in that respect he certainly planned for opportunities that arose. We have no idea, however, how many hunting trips Z might have gone on before he found suitable victims in a relatively isolated location. BTK, for instance, stalked hundreds of potential victims but only acted when he felt pretty sure he could get away with acting on his impulses. I can certainly picture Z doing the same although he seemed much less personally connected to his victims. Not once (with the possible exception of CJB) did Z ever refer to a victim by name. It was always "that girl", "the coupple", "the cabbie" etc. He seemed to have little consideration, IMO, for WHO he killed.

In regards to Gaik (or anyone else targeting Stine specifically), I'm not sure I understand how Z would have pre-planned having Stine pick him up in his cab at a specific location. If Z killed Stine because of some personal connection, it would seem to me that he would indeed have killed on impulse (recognizing Stine once he was picked up and deciding to kill him once he was in the cab).

Good points on all sides though. Thanks for all of the input on the topic.



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:30 am

I think that while Z WAS out to kill a cabbie that night, he did NOT know Stine, or probably any of the other cabbies either...



bayarea60s, Subject: Gaik and Stine Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:43 am

No evidence to date they knew each other. Since Stine lived so close to the work switchboard where Gaik worked it's reasonable to suggest they met at some point. Paul's sister has (supposedely) stated that Gaik was at Paul's funeral. If so that still doesn't prove a murder connection.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:57 am

To clarify - the "switchboard" for the haight advertised in the Good Times paper was NOT where Gaik or anyone at GT worked. These so called "switchboards" were NOT telephone switchboards or offices, they were a sort of hippie alternative economy thrift shop, where you could bring in an old jacket and trade it for a lamp.



sandy betts, Subject: Pauls sister Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:14 pm

No evidence to date they knew each other. Since Stine lived so close to the work switchboard where Gaik worked it's reasonable to suggest they met at some point. Paul's sister has (supposedely) stated that Gaik was at Paul's funeral. If so that still doesn't prove a murder connection.

I find it very hard to believe that Paul's sister remembered a person she believed was Gaik, at Pauls funeral. I could believe it if she knew Gaik herself, and saw him there.
I was at a funeral in 1969, and I don't remember who stood next to me, or any others for that matter ? I am with bayarea60's on this.

The reporter who wrote that the suspect looked to be 40 yrs old , I think was guessing the age by the report of between 35 and 45. He just took the middle of the road so to speak.
I have wondered over the yrs, about the person who said that they saw the killer go into Julius Khan playground ? Could that have been the Z himself directing the police there, so he could watch them from the window where he was staying ? Other phone calls from the Zodiac, were close enough so he could watch the police, why not this one ?



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:29 pm

I agree Sandy! Consider the source; there is only ONE individual who said he spoke with Paul's sister and obtained that information, and that person is neither a friend of the Stine's or his widow, or a family member/relative.

We do not even know if that individual even spoke with Paul's sister in the first place, let alone having any firsthand knowledge of what was discussed.

This is the same individual who stated on his site that Paul's widow was institutionalized for a number of years after Paul's murder when, in fact that was patently NOT true.

You may very well be onto something with your Julius Kahn playground scenario...



Quagmire, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:10 am

Not wanting to stray off topic but when Gaik was first proposed as a red hot suspect, one of the biggest and most interesting links to the case was that he supposedly knew Darlene and was known to have had an altercation with her which she had filed a complaint about. After waiting for proof for this for some years, it seems that it was a load of old codswallop. As a result, I certainly won't be getting excited about the possible sighting of Gaik at Stine's funeral until it is conclusively proved - until then it is just an urban myth and could be categorised with the tabloid style sensationalism that Graysmith used to further his case against Allen.

I like the idea of Z possibly ringing in to report the Stine suspect. Having said that, he had a chance to get away from the scene unobserved in the other murders and find a telephone box to call in the murders. As he almost got caught after this murder, I feel that he would have been chancing it too much to make a call if he was staying in the immediate vicinity and there is no record of any phone trace that night, etc and I'm sure this would be in the police reports. He did immediately write a letter however (which he didn't do previously) so perhaps this was to make up for the fact that he wasn't able to ring in and boast?



, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:26 am

Just a thought, if you didn't know the Presidio or that general area. What would a map show? Does he know the hight of the Presidio fence? He's using a taxi, is his car unavailable/out of commission? Were there areas in the Presidio where couples might "get together"? Is there anywhere near the presidio that had waiting taxis or a (taxi rank)? The kids don't hear a gunshot, lends itself to the theory he used a silencer (tentative I know). Has gloves but leaves prints, forcing him to rip off some of Stine's shirt to wipe down the cab? Takes the wallet in case he gets caught and needs to show motive, in order to hide his real identity? I know it's out there. I think he's on his way to attack a couple in the Presidio, but something forces his hand?........really just wanted to say, I think this attack was unplanned :confused: Sort of



sandy betts, Subject: Paul Stne Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:29 am

I don't think its that hard to find a particular cab driver in the theater district. The cabs have numbers written on them. If Stine was a preplanned hit , like I have suggested before. All the killer had to do, was look in the area for the number cab ,that Paul was known to drive. Or he could look into a few cabs until he found Paul.
I still think that he had seen Paul before, noticed how much they looked alike. Knew if he had Paul's drivers license, he could use it for many other things.
The other thought I have had, is that Z was in the car that was hit a few days before by Paul. This killer has a short temper and it wouldn't take much to set him off.
As far as him waring gloves, and then leaving a print in the cab.
I think he took them off ,when he reached into Stine's pockets looking for the drivers license. He had a reason to take the time to get that license, and take part of the shirt. He could have been in Paul's cab a few times before ?
The wanted poster told of other rides to that area weeks before. I think the z did at least one trial run, before he did his thing. Perhaps in conversation with Paul, he found out that Paul was going to go to work at the S.F. Chronicle ?
We know how the Z loved that paper ?



StitchMallone, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:53 am

To bad the Zodiac didn't get in the Cash Cab car by accident then we would have seen how smart he really is.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Planned or impulsive? Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:18 pm

I don't think its that hard to find a particular cab driver in the theater district. The cabs have numbers written on them. If Stine was a preplanned hit , like I have suggested before. All the killer had to do, was look in the area for the number cab ,that Paul was known to drive. Or he could look into a few cabs until he found Paul.
I still think that he had seen Paul before, noticed how much they looked alike. Knew if he had Paul's drivers license, he could use it for many other things.
The other thought I have had, is that Z was in the car that was hit a few days before by Paul. This killer has a short temper and it wouldn't take much to set him off.
As far as him waring gloves, and then leaving a print in the cab.
I think he took them off ,when he reached into Stine's pockets looking for the drivers license. He had a reason to take the time to get that license, and take part of the shirt. He could have been in Paul's cab a few times before ?
The wanted poster told of other rides to that area weeks before. I think the z did at least one trial run, before he did his thing. Perhaps in conversation with Paul, he found out that Paul was going to go to work at the S.F. Chronicle ?
We know how the Z loved that paper ?

Since Paul wasn't supposed to work that evening, it would have to be someone who had hung out with him earlier to know he decided to go to work. Or..he was REALLY lucky. imo



sandy betts, Subject: Paul Stine Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:58 pm

Very true Tahoe, I do believe that the Zodiac had more luck than brains.

[mike_r]

Hi-

Definitely planned to the extent that the corner Z picked as the original destination was probably chosen very carefully for its unique characteristics and sight lines.

Mike

[Welsh Chappie]

Hi-

Definitely planned to the extent that the corner Z picked as the original destination was probably chosen very carefully for its unique characteristics and sight lines.

Mike

I think he chose Washington & Maple for it's quick and easy escape access into Julius Kahn. The wall leading into the Presidio is right there at the intersection a few yards away.

[mike_r]

Hi-

If all he wanted was quick access to the park, why didn't he kill along Jackson?

Mike

[TomVoigt]

Here's the problems I have with the theory: This plan offers multiple chances for eyewitnesses to observe Zodiac

Zodiac clearly didn't care if he left witnesses, surviving victims, fingerprints, etc. And in fact he did indeed leave witnesses at the Stine scene, so I don't understand what you could be confused about. Zodiac was brazen. If he was out to commit the perfect crime he would have behaved differently.

[Dag MacLugh]

Others have noted that Z had a penchant for college/university students. Perhaps Stine sealed his fate by mentioning that he was a student at SF (State? University?). Perhaps this broke the ice, so to speak, and Stine stopped the cab to allow Z to get in the front seat so they could chat comfortably.

[Coloradoan]

Here's the problems I have with the theory: This plan offers multiple chances for eyewitnesses to observe Zodiac

Zodiac clearly didn't care if he left witnesses, surviving victims, fingerprints, etc. And in fact he did indeed leave witnesses at the Stine scene, so I don't understand what you could be confused about. Zodiac was brazen. If he was out to commit the perfect crime he would have behaved differently.

Surely he was somewhat concerned with having left fingerprints hence his efforts to at least try and wipe down the Stine ones.

[TomVoigt]

Here's the problems I have with the theory: This plan offers multiple chances for eyewitnesses to observe Zodiac

Zodiac clearly didn't care if he left witnesses, surviving victims, fingerprints, etc. And in fact he did indeed leave witnesses at the Stine scene, so I don't understand what you could be confused about. Zodiac was brazen. If he was out to commit the perfect crime he would have behaved differently.

Surely he was somewhat concerned with having left fingerprints hence his efforts to at least try and wipe down the Stine ones.

Or he was leaving fake clues so the police would chase deadends, as he wrote. He knew he didn't leave prints but wanted to give the illusion he did.