Sitting In the Front Seat

[Chaucer]

Is there any definitive proof that Zodiac sat in the passenger seat in Stine's cab?

I had always pictured Zodiac sitting in the backseat and then leaning over the seat and shooting Stine behind the ear.

How would a man sitting in the passenger seat, using his right arm, shoot the driver behind the ear?

If there's any evidence one way or the other, I'd love to hear it.

[jacob]

All I can think of is Zodiac restrains Stine, turns him towards the driver's seat window and fires the shot pointblank.

Or Paul turned rightwards before the shot was fired. Zodiac could have tricked him to look out of his window.

[masootz]

there is no evidence that he sat in the front seat during the drive. i think this rumor started because of the eyewitness account of the three kids who saw him in the front seat while likely removing a piece of stine's shirt.

[TomVoigt]

Paul Stine's sister, Carol, is on record having stated that Inspector Armstrong of SFPD told her Zodiac rode in front.

Aside from that, there is no evidence Zodiac ever rode in the back, it's an assumption perpetuated by books and movies. Zodiac was never seen in the back of the cab, nothing about the crime was necessary for the Zodiac to be in the back, and according to Carol, who would have no reason to lie, the investigation proved Zodiac rode in front.

[Xcaliber]

The wildcard might be though that the witnesses had the killer wiping down the left passenger-compartment door. That could imply that he entered the cab in back and at some point moved up front.

[Chaucer]

Tom Voigt is on record saying that it is conclusive that he sat in the passenger seat. I believe Dave Toschi said this as well. However, the autopsy and logic seem to suggest otherwise. What is the evidence that compels two pretty reliable sources to say he sat in the passenger seat?

[Quicksilver]

The wildcard might be though that the witnesses had the killer wiping down the left passenger-compartment door. That could imply that he entered the cab in back and at some point moved up front.

Over the years, I have never resolved the entire Stine scenario in my head. Fisherman's Friend and Richard Grinell helped me to think it through a while back on the Washington and Maple thread. Xcaliber, I agree with what you said about wiping the passenger door. I have always thought it was because he / Zodiac initially touched the door handle on that side and kept it in mind after he shot Stine. However, if he picked up the cab on Geary and Mason, the cab pick up area is on the passenger side. Zodiac could have easily crossed the street and talked to Stine from the drivers side to explain that scenario. This is a good thread. Let's keep it going.

[Xcaliber]

Geary was one-way going west, so passengers entered cabs on Geary equally from the left and right sides.

It does seem significant that he took the time at the scene to wipe the left rear door.

Therefore my guess is:

a) He hailed the cab, opened the left rear door, asked Stine if could sit in the front seat, and did so.

b) He rode in the back and at some point along the way (or at Washington and Cherry before the witnesses looked out the window) exited the rear compartment and entered the driver's compartment.

c) He rode in the rear, and at the scene, without exiting the cab, climbed over into the front compartment.

Anything else, or am I way off?

[replaceablehead]

Paul Stine's sister, Carol, is on record having stated that Inspector Armstrong of SFPD told her Zodiac rode in front.

Aside from that, there is no evidence Zodiac ever rode in the back, it's an assumption perpetuated by books and movies. Zodiac was never seen in the back of the cab, nothing about the crime was necessary for the Zodiac to be in the back, and according to Carol, who would have no reason to lie, the investigation proved Zodiac rode in front.

It's hard to imagine that the police wouldn't have made a determination on which seat he was sitting in.

It's also reasonable to think they might have discussed that sort of detail with Carol.

Further I believe Carol has stated that she had fixed this piece of information in her mind as she was adamant that Paul only allowed friends to ride up front.

Having said that I think a lot of people have a strong reluctance to believe information that has passed by memory from Armstrong to Carol to Tom.

And it's not because anyone thinks they would lie.
The reason people are doubtful has more to do with observations most of us have made about the reliability of peoples memories.

If you've ever sat around the table at a family gathering and discussed old memories you may have observed the phenomenon of faulty memory.

At my own family gatherings my aunts and uncles argue incessantly over details from the past. Simple details that should stick in ones mind. The most basic detail cannot be established with any certainty, they can't seem to decide if the Holiday they took in in 2004 was to the local beach, or Bangkok, even if they've never set foot in Bangkok. And then each in term will cite reasons that this detail is etched in their memory. It usually goes something like this,

"it was definitely Bangkok, I know because I spent four weeks in the lead up learning Thai"
"NO. I know for a fact that it was the local beach, because I took surfing lessons!"
"Well then explain how it is I can speak Thai?!"
"Explain how it is I can surf!!"

... And so it goes back and forth.

Having said that not everyone is so unreliable and I still tend to believe that if Carol was indeed told by Armstrong that Zodiac sat in the front seat, it is likely that she would remember the detail correctly. So in short, I believe it, with the usual grain of salt that aught to accompany hearsay.

No reason to be too quick to believe, but no reason to be unreasonably skeptical.

[TomVoigt]

Zodiac claimed he wiped the cab down to leave fake clews. I believe he meant that he wiped the cab to give the impression he might have left fingerprints somewhere. AKA a ruse.

Also, according to Carol Stine, nobody rode in the front of Paul's cab unless Paul knew and trusted them.