Grew up in the Wash-Cherry neighborhood thanks for the forum

[CuriousCat]

All interesting points! - Can you work with tracking dogs on the leash? (Unlikely they would turn them loose in the Presidio, for the safety of the dogs.)

Yeah, you can work them on a leash. I'm no expert or even very knowledgeable though. I think they usually unleash them when they're hot on a trail though. The Sheriff in the county I live has a bloodhound team and I know they put out warnings to stay inside if you are in the area they are working. They're pretty vicious, but usually won't bother anyone other than who's scent their tracking. I've never known them turning them loose in a populated area though.

[Xcaliber]

Interesting - also I wasn't clear on whether the dogs were from the military or SFPD?

[Xcaliber]

Also Tahoe posted an excellent photo of the Presidio side of Maple.

This got me thinking that yes, it's obviously easy enough to cut through there and hop the wall.

But when you look into Maple from Jackson, you have a horseshoe shaped private-feeling road that only extends halfway to the wall.

My point being, especially at night, that wouldn't be the optimum choice. Obviously with adrenaline (not to mention insanity) raging, all bets are off.

But what I'm getting to is: what are the odds (and/or evidence) that Zodiac had spent time in the neighborhood, and was thus familiar with the Maple St escape route?

[CuriousCat]

Interesting - also I wasn't clear on whether the dogs were from the military or SFPD?

Yeah, I don't think it's clear. I've always assumed they were MP's with guard dogs, at least some of them. The police report say the Presidio MP's were notified and an "intense search of the Julius Kahn area was made by seven dog units". That doesn't tell if they were SFPD or MP dogs though. The report also says "other Richmond and C.P. units". I'm assuming C.P. means "canine patrol", so maybe there was a combined force.

Here's a story from one of the first reporters on the scene that night. It's from 2013, so his memory might not be so good, but he says when he arrived at Stine's cab there were "a half dozen police dogs and their handlers".

http://www.weeklystandard.com/signs-of- ... le/751404#!

He says 6, maybe one MP unit joined in. I have never been able to determine if the MP's had any involvement with the search at all but assume they did. Regardless, military and police dogs are trained virtually the same, they're highly disciplined and obey orders. Much more so than bloodhounds, who have one job, track someone down and hold them at bay.

[CuriousCat]

But what I'm getting to is: what are the odds (and/or evidence) that Zodiac had spent time in the neighborhood, and was thus familiar with the Maple St escape route?

I think he always scouted out the areas he committed his attacks, knowing the lay of the land so to speak, escape routes and such. There's the school of thought that him stating in the letter he was responsible for the shooting at "Maple and Washington" when it was actually Cherry and Washington that he knew Maple because it was his original destination, but didn't know the name of Cherry street. Some also think that since he said the "San Francisco PD", instead of just "the police" that shows he's not from San Fran.

Either way, he seemed to be at least somewhat familiar with the area.

[marie]

Had originally posted in the Welcome feed, and was asked to repost here, no time right now to read whole thread but hope I didn't repeat too much:

I found it interesting, if you watched the recent documentary series, one of the main investigators actually said he was going to Washington and Laurel. But an unconfirmed report from someone who saw Paul Stine's log book says it was Maple. Its been suggested due to other cabbie incidents (robberies) in the general area, the investigator got it wrong. I find it interesting that anyone would confuse information from one of the most important cases they ever worked, but until I see the log book, it is JMHO. Laurel is also on one of the first bulletins that went out with the composite sketch, or at least that general area. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=402&start=10

The only place Maple and Washington is confirmed is in a Zodiac letter. There is supposition that perhaps where Z wanted to stop and kill Stine, there was something going on, like a person was out walking or something else that lead him to change his location.

EDIT: I don't believe there is any confirmation he entered JK, just his own claims. No one really knows what happened to him after he claims he spoke to the police officers driving by, something they deny- claiming they only saw him. The call had gone out for a black suspect initially.

-marie

[Xcaliber]

Great article, thanks for posting it.

I would only nitpick a couple things - that he has Stine living in the Mission, where I could be wrong but I thought he lived on Fell Street?

Also depicting (I'm assuming) Lindsey Robbins as a little kid, when apparently he was 16.

Surprising that the police canine units met at the scene and not up the hill in the Presidio - also I never remember ever seeing an MP outside the Presidio, but of course this was an unusual circumstance.

[Xcaliber]

Marie, for what it's worth I believe there's a section in Graysmith's book where detectives heard from neighbors that say they saw a stocky figure hustling into JK.

[Xcaliber]

I took the time to read Richard's timeline - incredible piece of work!

The one issue I'd have is with Dave Toschi's apparent contention that Zodiac didn't exit the Presidio until he reached the north end near Richardson Blvd and the approach to the Golden Gate Bridge.

In addition to the added distance it would require to get there, at that time, and at the height of Vietnam, the Presidio was a very active base, and the action was on the north side. It was full of people, buildings, and open areas. You also had a major VA hospital, Letterman, which I'm pretty sure Zodiac would have had to pass to exit the north gate.

In that area, and at that time, a civilian walking around at 10:30 at night would attract attention PERIOD - not to mention under this circumstance.

By contrast, the southeast part of the base, coming up out of the woods from JK, was completely quiet - no people, no buildings, no lights, no activity other than the traffic on Presidio Boulevard.

You'd have to dart across Presidio Blvd and then maybe an eight of a mile up the little hill and you're out, onto Broadway. Much more logical than the Toschi theory, though obviously he had his reasons.

One correction to an earlier post - the Golden Gate Bridge eliminated the northbound toll in 1968, so if Zodiac did leave the city that way, he would not have had to contend with a human toll booth collector.

[CuriousCat]

EDIT: I don't believe there is any confirmation he entered JK, just his own claims.

Agreed, I've always had doubts that he hid in the woods there, I think the dogs would have found him. However, there were several people who said someone fitting his description went into the park. He might have just exited through the park to his car.