Washington & Maple

[Quicktrader]

That would have been easy if Z was on probation with Mrs. Bloch being his probation officer. He could have had watched the motorcycles and escaped the dogs at the same time. It also fits well to his initial destination he had given to Paul Stine.

QT

[CuriousCat]

CuriousCat said;
"Fouke denies ever having spoke to him."

Zelm's widow is reported as having said that her husband told her that
they did stop that guy and talk to him.

Yes, I was just responding to what xcaliber was saying noting that Fouke has never acknowledged publicaly that he spoke with anyone that night. Personally, I don't believe anything Fouke says.

The times never matched up for me, assuming both Pelissetti and Fouke got the radio call at the same time and responded accordingly. Pelesetti had time to get to the scene, talk to the kids, get on the radio to inform them it was a white male, walk, according to Pelessetti very carefully, to Jackson and on to the corner of Maple, talk to the dog walker, then walk back to Cherry street before encountering Fouke.

Fouke was on Presidio just past Washington when he heard the radio call, then turned onto Jackson, had his encounter with the suspect, then drove on to Cherry where he met up with Pelissetti.

Seems if he turned onto Jackson right after the initial call, he would have encountered Pelessetti before Pelissetti made it to Maple , especially if he drove on past the suspect he spotted.

[buyerninety]

Thankyou for enunciating it plainly, CuriousCat.
CuriousCat said;
..."assuming both Pelissetti and Fouke got the radio call at the same time and
responded accordingly. Pelesetti had time to get to the scene, talk to the kids,
get on the radio to inform them it was a white male, walk, according to Pelessetti
very carefully, to Jackson and on to the corner of Maple, talk to the dog walker,
then walk back to Cherry street before encountering Fouke."

That's apparently how quite a few people here believe the sequence of events
occurred.
However, there's another way to understand this, and that is that this is
one - unfortunate - misunderstanding.

'According to Pelissetti', means, of course, according to what we hear Pelissetti say
in the 2007 documentary 'This is The Zodiac Speaking', onwards from about 1:16:50 .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys

Pelissetti is a careful speaker.
Therefore, I allow, when I hear Pelissetti talking, that the documentary makers
edited the interview, such that some interview footage was removed and reinserted
later in the video.
A BIT AFTER THE TIME IN THE INTERVIEW where Pelissetti states "down Cherry Street
in a northerly direction", somewhere close to after that they cut out Pelissetti's
mention of Fouke's arrival and talking with Fouke (near the corner of Cherry and
Jackson St.) and moved that section of the footage to a bit later in the documentary.
The reasons why they would do this are that they knew there was some disagreement/
controversy as to whether Zodiac was stopped/talked to, and the editors wanted to
contrast what Pelissetti/Fouke said happened, and present that as a more compact
discussion a bit later in the documentary. So, they outline all Pelissetti's actions
excepting the meeting with Fouke near Cherry/Jackson, and they then have Fouke
outline his actions, then the documentary editors move on to the mention of the
Pelissetti/Fouke meeting near Cherry/Jackson as a part of the 'Pelissetti said/Fouke
said' disagreement.

To be quite clear, here is what I believe happened;
... assuming both Pelissetti and Fouke got the radio call at the same time and
responded accordingly. Pelesetti had time to get to the scene, talk to the kids,
got on the radio to inform Despatch it was a white male, walk very carefully north
along Cherry towards Jackson St, meet/talk to Fouke somewhere in Cherry St after
Fouke "pulled up very quickly in their police car", and according to Pelissetti,
Pelissetti lets Fouke know it was a White Male, Fouke does not not mention to
Pelissetti that Fouke "had seen anybody at that point or had stopped anybody",
then after Pelissetti finished talking to Fouke, Pelissetti continued north on Cherry
and "Got down to the corner of Jackson Street" and "Had to make a choice" where
to go, Pelissetti then went east on Jackson, south on Maple, talked to Kjell Qvale
walking his dog, then Pelissetti went west on Washington and returned to the
intersection of Cherry/Washington St.

[I'll add, that Fouke, (after his encounter with Zodiac,) and after talking to
Pelissetti, "turned around to get to the Presidio" (Note; either by driving south
on Cherry, west on Washington and then north on Arguello Blvd - OR - by reversing
shortly north up Cherry, then driving west on Jackson and then north on Arguello
Blvd), because either Fouke/Zelm had seen the Zodiac turn/go north on
Maple - OR - because Foukes' "reasoning on that was that" (the Zodiac by)...
"turning down Maple would lead through the Presidio wall directly to the Julius Kahn
Playground". (Note; Fouke's reasoning is slightly faulty, as it is Spruce St that
leads directly to Julius Kahn Playground, not Maple St)!]

I believe Pelissetti, who is still alive, about 76 and apparently currently living
in Petaluma, would confirm the sequence of his actions I have asserted above.

[Richard Grinell]

That sequence of events is not possible for this reason. If we start with the assertion that Fouke and Pelissetti received the initial call at, let's say 9:58 pm for arguments sake. Then Fouke traveling at the speed he quoted (allowing for intersections along Jackson St) from his quoted starting point, would take no longer than 90 seconds to reach the top of Cherry.

Pelissetti needs 1 minute at normal walking pace to travel up Cherry. But he stated he used all his police training, checking the alcoves, parked cars etc, "so he didn't get his head blown off". We can safely add 30 seconds for this cautious approach. Pelissetti now needs 90 seconds to negotiate Cherry. The same 90 seconds Donald Fouke requires to reach Cherry.

But what about the time Pelissetti took to reach the crime scene, exit his vehicle, chat with the Robbins kids, escort them back to their house, retake the description, check on Paul Stine, get to the radio to update everybody, tell Peda to secure the crime scene, then begin his journey up Cherry. You would have to attribute zero seconds to all this, to allow Pelisseti to meet Fouke at the top of Cherry in 90 seconds. Even if Fouke spoke to Zodiac (which he denied), this wouldn't delay his journey long enough for him to directly meet Pelissetti at the top of Cherry.

The answer is in the 1989 'Crimes of the Century' documentary, when Donald Fouke wasn't playing up to the camera as he was in the prelude to the Hollywood blockbuster, Zodiac.

[sandy betts]

As always Richard, You have cleared up the confusion! Thank you for all the hard work you have put into this case.

[CuriousCat]

Therefore, I allow, when I hear Pelissetti talking, that the documentary makers
edited the interview, such that some interview footage was removed and reinserted
later in the video.

Yes, I considered that possibility, but they would have had to move Pelissseti's mention of his meeting with Fouke out of sequence.

I know that documentary well by the way and have it saved so you don't have to link it. But in it, it seems Pelissetti's account of walking up Cherry to Jackson, down to Maple where he spoke with the dog walker is one continuous scene with no cuts, meaning they did not cut out his encounter with Fouke. If that is true, Pelissetti did not meet up with Fouke until after he spoke to the dog walker and was proceeding back to Cherry and Washington. It's interesting Pelissetti doesn't say where he met Fouke, it was Fouke who said Pelissetti was on Cherry when they met.

After Pelissetti speaks of his encounter with the dog walker, the scene is cut back to Fouke. Next we see Pelissetti he says "at that point" and talks about encountering Fouke. It's not clear, but I think it's possible Pelissetti was near Maple and Jackson when he encountered Fouke, not back on Cherry street as Fouke claims. That would be an important point to clarify because if Fouke was still at Maple and Jackson, he would have seen the same suspect walking and saw Fouke's squad car approaching. He would have also saw Fouke stop and talk to the suspect, which I believe Fouke did.

As Richard points out, even in the 1989 documentary Fouke's story is different. Nothing about meeting Pelissetti, Fouke says he was on Arguello when the description changed. In "This is the Zodiac speaking", Fouke says he learned from Pelissetti the description change.

So I don't believe what Fouke says. I believe he did stop and talk to the guy he saw, who probably was Zodiac, Zodiac then sent them on a wild goose chase, which direction is not clear. Whatever direction Fouke went after speaking with Zodiac, I believe they circled the area for a short time before encountering Pelissetti, which gave time for Pelissetti to do all the things he described and make it to Jackson and Maple.

I think Fouke has been lying all these years and he did stop and talk to someone, most likely the Zodiac, and he has never wanted to admit it. However, since I do believe he stopped the guy, there is some value in his description of him. Other than that, I take very little from what Fouke says. I do believe Pelissetti however.

[buyerninety]

"The answer is in the 1989 'Crimes of the Century' documentary"...

Is that online anywhere?

[Richard Grinell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3kD-j ... u.be&t=57s

[Richard Grinell]

As you alluded, Donald Fouke clearly stated in the 1989 documentary ""We proceeded on Jackson Street towards Arguello continuing our search, as we arrived at Arguello Street the description of the suspect was changed to a white male adult".
This is the updated version radioed in by Pelissetti. So Fouke was by Arguello Boulevard while Pelissetti was still likely at the crime scene. Donald Fouke should have been heading to the crime scene, but was actually heading away from the crime scene. Why? Because Zodiac sent him on a wild goose chase.

When Fouke received the updated white description, he thought "Cor blimey guvnor, that white guy just duped me." He last saw this white guy entering Maple. Believing he had now likely been thrown a yarn, and knowing the man may have entered the Presidio through Maple, he screeched his vehicle into West Pacific Avenue to look for the man who just duped him. Failing to find him, he returned back to Cherry. This probably took 90 secs to 2 minutes, by which time his old chum Pelissetti had instructed Peda to secure the crime scene and had reached the top of Cherry. This is when they first met that night.

[buyerninety]

Pelissetti received the incident call at 09:55PM, if I am
understanding his Police Incident Report correctly.
Fouke said in the 2007 documentary that he was "going
northbound on Presidio Avenue" and "we had passed Washington
St when a broadcast came in" about the shooting, time unstated.

The time taken by Fouke to get from that location (if that time
was 09:55PM) along to Cherry St does not appear to be consistent
with the apparent time it was that Pelissetti arrived at the
incident site (09:58PM if I am understanding his police Incident
Report correctly) and the apparent time it would take to perform
the actions Pelissetti performed at the incident site before he
walked north on Cherry St.

Fouke, to get from on Presidio Av, between Washington and Jackson
St, to the encounter with Zodiac in Jackson, to the encounter with
Pelissetti in Cherry St, I tally to be around a minute and a half
to up to 2 minutes. 09:55 plus up to 2 minutes gives 09:57, which
is obviously inconsistent with my scenario if Pelissetti arrived
at the incident site at 09:58PM.

Possible reasons for the discrepancy are e.g.;
Fouke received his information about the incident at a time other
than the 09:55 incident call due to being on a different radio
channel than Pelissetti, or,
Fouke did not respond to the 09:55 incident call but rather
received a later timed call from Despatch requesting he respond
to the incident, or,
Fouke drove a lot slower than he said he did after he received
the 09:55 incident call, or,
Fouke has simply incorrectly remembered or incorrectly stated
where he was when he received the 09:55 incident call.

Any of the above events could have occurred - as I pointed out
in my previous post, the best way to determine if Pelissetti
encountered Fouke on Cherry before Pelissetti walked along
Jackson St, or to determine if Pelissetti met Fouke after
Pelissetti walked along Jackson St, is to contact Pelissetti.
If you know of anyone with a beenverified account, that would
enable us to contact Pelissetti.

(I haven't referred to the 1989 Documentary, because I didn't
hear any statements in it made by Fouke, which were inconsistent
with the statements Fouke made in the 2007 documentary.)
Cheers