End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valentino

End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valentino

Postby Susie » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:42 pm

I just came across this book and decided to purchase it. I can't find any info on either this or Tom's site, so I'm not sure how well known this book is. The author claims to have met Bruce Davis through a friend named Wayne and spent a weekend in Tahoe with them in which he ended up having to assist with burying a body. He claims that Bruce Davis his not the Zodiac but knows is identity and was somehow involved in the case. There were four guys involved in the Tahoe incident and it took place Labor Day weekend 1970 (Donna?). The guy telling this story was a police officer in a small town just south of San Fransisco and says the FBI is aware of all of this and have covered it up. Has anyone heard about this book or have more info on the author?

I tried to copy and paste the description but my phone isn't cooperating

http://www.amazon.com/End-Zodiac-Who-Wa ... 9693514677
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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Susie » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:19 pm

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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:03 pm

There is discussion somewhere about this Susie. I will see if I can find it. Might be at the old site.

I will try and move the thread (below) over in it's original form later on...
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Susie » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:36 pm

Thanks Tahoe- I wish the picture was still there. I tried to look it up on classmates.com, but it was taking way too long to load. After about 25 minutes of trying to search and have the pages load I had enough and logged off.
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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:17 pm

I'll get it...hang tight :)
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:30 pm

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bentley, Subject: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 2:20 pm

Remember Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni, the former Colma police chief who says he helped dispose of Donna Lass's body with the Messier father/son Zodiac team? Long gray haired guy, did Youtubers when his book "Two Zodiacs" came out.

Well he's put out another book, and it also talks about his alleged involvement with Z. You can read some of it in the intro.


http://books.google.com/books?id=2_JIg1 ... &q&f=false

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 2:25 pm

bentley wrote:Remember Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni, the former Colma police chief who says he helped dispose of Donna Lass's body with the Messier father/son Zodiac team? Long gray haired guy, did Youtubers when his book "Two Zodiacs" came out.

Well he's put out another book, and it also talks about his alleged involvement with Z. You can read some of it in the intro.


http://books.google.com/books?id=2_JIg1 ... &q&f=false


Was this the guy that claims that Z was an ambulance driver? If so, what was the alleged perp's name again? (You can post it here since the guy is dead). I posted a longtime back, a pic I think of the alleged perp loading a person in an ambulance.

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bentley, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 2:33 pm

Yep. I bought his first Ebook for 10 bucks, and actually there was some pretty interesting thoughts. Messier was also a road engineer or surveyor, and commuted between Sacramento and the SF iirc, so might have been familiar with the Vallejo area. And he was dying, died in 1972 I believe. And there's the rub, at least if you believe the 1974 Exorcist letter is real Ray claims Messier's father wrote it I think.

The ambulance driver, road engineer and short life expectancy would all be traits I would really go for in Z, unfortunately the story fell short in the all too common area: Despite knowing the guy was Z he never thought to get his prints or handwriting!!!! :evil:

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tahoe27, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 3:44 pm

I do remember this! There were things that made you think :suspect: , but in the end... :sleep:

Is that worth watching?

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Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 5:07 pm

The fact that he's writing a book about this stuff instead of turning himself in as an accessory to murder is enough to dismiss him as a crackpot.

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KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 5:56 pm

:affraid: Another book! It's like one ever month. :shock: [JUST A SECOND, THOSE bad bad Flying MONKEYS :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: R JUMPING ON MY BED] Have you seen Diablo :?: :arrow: The zodiac sign is there in the name. aLL OF THIS MAY NOT :no: BE GOOD. iT COULD MAKE A COPY :cat: He WILL PICK-UP his toys :suspect: and make it his own little sand box or garden of souls by the sea. :twisted: Dam those Flying Monkeys :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: their in my spa :affraid: drinking my A&W root beer and eatting my Garden Veggie Chips. Who let those flying monkeys :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: out :?: Was it you Great#1 :farao: {up to your old tricks again}

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 5:59 pm

Was the guy's name WAYNE T. MESSIER?

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Seagull, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 7:05 pm

Wayne Thomas Messier was the son and Wilfred Messier was the dad. This is what there is of Wayne Messier's death certificate pictured in Valentino's first book End of "Zodiac".

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bentley, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Tue May 15, 2012 11:01 pm

Nachtsider wrote:The fact that he's writing a book about this stuff instead of turning himself in as an accessory to murder is enough to dismiss him as a crackpot.


He says he attempted to do just that, a couple of times. Not interested.

Anyway, the Ebook is 4 bucks now, less than a cheeseburger. There's that much entertainment in it, imo.

http://www.amazon.com/End-Zodiac-Who-Zo ... 703&sr=1-1


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kirkham, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Wed May 16, 2012 12:55 am

KEY.SMITH697 wrote: :affraid: Another book! It's like one ever month. :shock: [JUST A SECOND, THOSE bad bad Flying MONKEYS :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: R JUMPING ON MY BED] Have you seen Diablo :?: :arrow: The zodiac sign is there in the name. aLL OF THIS MAY NOT :no: BE GOOD. iT COULD MAKE A COPY :cat: He WILL PICK-UP his toys :suspect: and make it his own little sand box or garden of souls by the sea. :twisted: Dam those Flying Monkeys :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: their in my spa :affraid: drinking my A&W root beer and eatting my Garden Veggie Chips. Who let those flying monkeys :monkey: :monkey: :monkey: out :?: Was it you Great#1 :farao: {up to your old tricks again}








I'll have what he's having,wait...make it a double I gotta work in the morning ;)

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zodio, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Sat May 19, 2012 8:55 pm

This guy needs to get together with Lafferty and do a two cops memoirs.

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Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Mon May 21, 2012 12:43 pm

Morf, the name is Wayne ..., however some pages are blocked - Wilfried Messier is mentioned as well so it may be assumed that the book is about Wayne T. Messier..however both names wouldn´t match the cipher. Some killings happened in the Sacramento area however, these must not be related to Z or Manson, even if Wayne seemed to hang around with Bruce Davis and grew up in Sacramento - wasn´t the Zodiac club there as well?

Interesting find on page 143 is that Wilfried Messier was skilled at tying knots, a quite challenging double clove hitch knot was found at the Patricia May 'Pat' Tan site.

Author mentions that one of the Messiers met Donna Lass at Letterman Hospital, where she worked, author further claims that Wilfried was a catalyst for Wayne, also relates to the church of satan - a reasonable approach for a multi-killer theory. Wilfried also seems to have been in the Vallejo and Santa Rosa area, however page 144 again is not available.

QT

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robinhood, Subject: Dark Star still needs discovery Thu May 24, 2012 4:38 pm

Quicktrader wrote:Morf, the name is Wayne ..., however some pages are blocked - Wilfried Messier is mentioned as well so it may be assumed that the book is about Wayne T. Messier..however both names wouldn´t match the cipher. Some killings happened in the Sacramento area however, these must not be related to Z or Manson, even if Wayne seemed to hang around with Bruce Davis and grew up in Sacramento - wasn´t the Zodiac club there as well?

Interesting find on page 143 is that Wilfried Messier was skilled at tying knots, a quite challenging double clove hitch knot was found at the Patricia May 'Pat' Tan site.

Author mentions that one of the Messiers met Donna Lass at Letterman Hospital, where she worked, author further claims that Wilfried was a catalyst for Wayne, also relates to the church of satan - a reasonable approach for a multi-killer theory. Wilfried also seems to have been in the Vallejo and Santa Rosa area, however page 144 again is not available.

QT



Youse guys are behind times - G.V. is eager to put a *third book out. Considering he's gotten about a nickle for every dollar spent so far, I say "Why?". Gino (Ray) doesn't fiddle n' fart around!
UNCLE seems afraid of *something from 40 years back.
TRUTH *is sometimes stranger than fiction. :star:

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bentley, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Thu May 24, 2012 4:55 pm

Robinhood, are you the one I sent the article on Messier Sr. (I think it was) getting busted at some house back east a long time ago for something odd that I also can't remember?

As I said a few posts up, there's a lot about WM that fits my idea of a Z persona, just too bad RO never got any hard evidence.

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robinhood, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Thu May 24, 2012 9:48 pm

bentley wrote:Robinhood, are you the one I sent the article on Messier Sr. (I think it was) getting busted at some house back east a long time ago for something odd that I also can't remember?

As I said a few posts up, there's a lot about WM that fits my idea of a Z persona, just too bad RO never got any hard evidence.


Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it was another guy. "Messier" is not that unusual in Hoser land. Gino said the father was living
I believe, with a relative in Sonoma area when the unsolved murders happened. He also told me, *he visited a family place in the same general area, then. :afraid:

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robinhood, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Thu May 24, 2012 10:14 pm

bentley wrote:Remember Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni, the former Colma police chief who says he helped dispose of Donna Lass's body with the Messier father/son Zodiac team? Long gray haired guy, did Youtubers when his book "Two Zodiacs" came out.

Well he's put out another book, and it also talks about his alleged involvement with Z. You can read some of it in the intro.


http://books.google.com/books?id=2_JIg1 ... &q&f=false


Gino has two videos; first lonnnng (Tried to get him to do much shorter version). For COWBOY (Title sucks) he did right length video. Problem is, YouTube is aimed at folks with attention span of a 14 year old.
Remember, he claims he met B.D. at shooting range *and Lake Tahoe 9\'70.
I still say that guy knows plenty about Zodiac, and he's buried deep along with his criminal records.

We were in Sacramento years ago, partly to check records on W.M. I noticed in old phone books, when W.M. was living in an apartment, a "Bruce Davis" was listed in Sacramento also. A couple years later, both were no longer listed.
About that time according to G.V. W.M. was allegedly arrested in SFO for making a "false" violent crime claim.
He was nabbed with another guy, then. According to detective Baxley, the charge was dropped and record "sealed".
Arresting SFO cop: Dave Toschi.

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Thu May 24, 2012 10:26 pm

This was a pic of Messier (side to the camera with glasses on):
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robinhood, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri May 25, 2012 12:58 pm

morf13 wrote:This was a pic of Messier (side to the camera with glasses on):
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I mentioned that pic to Gino, he said the only time he saw Wayne with glasses was when he was reading. He did *not claim the person in this third generation pic was Wayne.

p.s. We could not locate any good pic of W.M. Sacramento dicks asked for enormous search fee; Gino didn't know what High School Wayne went to. How if you locate family even after all this time, do you explain *why you need a pic of him?
All we had was a crude sketch of a face that Gino said looked vaguely like W.M.

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri May 25, 2012 1:09 pm

Wayne Thomas Messier was born 12/29/41 in Yolo County. Assuming he went to school and graduated when he was supposed to he would be calss of 58-60 depending on when he started school. You might want to check schools in that area.

By the way, he died in December,1972 3 months after he got married, so if you think he was the Zodiac, you have to assume that Zodiac did not write the 1974 communications.

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Seagull, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri May 25, 2012 1:28 pm

Here's a 1955 record for Wilfred that shows the family was living in Sacramento in 1955. I'd check high schools in the area of this address for a picture of Wayne.

U.S. City Directories, 1821-1989 (Beta) about Wilfred T Messier
Name: Wilfred T Messier
Gender: M (Male)
Residence Year: 1955
Street Address: 5401 Argo
Residence Place: Sacramento, California
Occupation: Formn
Spouse: Helen S Messier
Publication Title: Sacramento Directory Co.'s Sacramento (Sacramento County, Calif.) City Directory

Edited to add:

Hiram W Johnson High School was the public high school for that area at that time.


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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri May 25, 2012 1:50 pm

I found a photo of him in the 1958 Sacramento HS yearbook,his junior year in a photo with other classmates(not his senior portrait). In 1959, he is NOT in the yearbook, so either he quit school or transferred. I will post a pic later, he is on the smallish side, no glasses.

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri May 25, 2012 9:51 pm

Here's Wayne Messier in 1958. The only photo I can find-
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robinhood, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Sat May 26, 2012 3:49 pm

morf13 wrote:Here's Wayne Messier in 1958. The only photo I can find-
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Judas Priest! This could be the ambulance guy in the newspaper; what's the name of the High School? There's plenty of new schools in the last half century, and some that closed. Ray met him about 10-12 years later, boyish look was gone.
His face was more fleshy, and was feeling the effect of a fatal disease... Also family lived in a town for some time *near Sacramento.

p.s. Any chance to get a blowup of this school pic?

p.p.s. We think "ZODIAC" had at least one helper.

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morf13, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Sun May 27, 2012 7:04 am

robinhood wrote:
morf13 wrote:Here's Wayne Messier in 1958. The only photo I can find-
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Judas Priest! This could be the ambulance guy in the newspaper; what's the name of the High School? There's plenty of new schools in the last half century, and some that closed. Ray met him about 10-12 years later, boyish look was gone.
His face was more fleshy, and was feeling the effect of a fatal disease... Also family lived in a town for some time *near Sacramento.

p.s. Any chance to get a blowup of this school pic?

p.p.s. We think "ZODIAC" had at least one helper.


Unfortunately, when you enlarges these small pics, they get distorted, but I will try. This pic was from SACRAMENTO HIGH SCHOOL in 1958. I think this was Wayne's Junior year, and he would have likely graduated in 1959. He was NOT in the 1959 yearbook, so he either transferred to another school, or dropped out.

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bentley, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Sun May 27, 2012 10:26 am

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robinhood, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:43 am

bentley wrote:Image



Gino is working on a possible sketch of W.M. Will attempt to get an age progression from the photo with additions of how W.M. looked as fatal disease changed his appearance c.1970.
If it comes out good, will try to upload; though I'm a 20th century novice about these new fangled thig-a-ma-jigs.

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Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Cowboy- Gino Valentino aka Ray Ottoboni / Two Zodiacs Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:45 am


A little bit better enlargement:

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Wayne Thomas messier 1958
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: End of "Zodiac": Who was he? Two "Zodiacs" by Gino Valen

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:36 pm

And there was this....

***

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robinhood, Subject: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:33 pm

"Wayne", the killer of Donna lass from Tahoe '70 :shock:

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tahoe27, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:39 pm

robinhood wrote:"Wayne", the killer of Donna lass from Tahoe '70 :shock:


Where is the link? :)

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morf13, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:23 pm

robinhood wrote:"Wayne", the killer of Donna lass from Tahoe '70 :shock:


There's a real photo of Wayne someplace here on the forum

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morf13, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:26 pm

morf13 wrote:
robinhood wrote:"Wayne", the killer of Donna lass from Tahoe '70 :shock:


There's a real photo of Wayne someplace here on the forum


Here's a pic of him from the late 1950's-
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... wo-zodiacs

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doranchak, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:00 pm

The sketch from his Facebook page:

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His Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/gino.valentino.376

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tahoe27, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:27 pm

No comment.

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robinhood, Subject: Re: Gino Valentino's on Facebook - with sketch of... Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:14 pm

Valentino believes the sketch and the SFPD wanted poster ( glasses) could be same person. He *knows the sketch guy was in Tahoe area during Labor day weekend 1970. He knows more and claims Bruce Davis was also there, then.
Hope youse still aren't wondering about Grant and Allen - a waste of time (fiddle 'n fart).
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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