Unigram distance curiosity

[Largo]

Convert the cipher to numbered by appearance. You have 63 symbols numbered from 1 to 63, numerically add 63 to the symbols of the middle 8 rows to make these distinct from the other rows/key. Then transpose. You can do it with AZdecrypt, under functions, manipulation, raise periodic, from: 103, to: 238. 6-grams should do the job.

I didn't think of that! Clever!
Do you think it is possible to extend the solver for encryptions with two keys? The solver splits the numerical version of the encryption into several parts (rectangles) and increases the numbers within one of the rectangles. Basically the same as you do for region-based transpositions.

Again, the font is so awesome and thanks Largo.

You're welcome! I'm glad it's useful to you.

[Jarlve]

It is plausible the center piece is using one encoding, and the top+bottom uses another.

This would definitably be a solvable hypothesis, something that we can check. Though, the question is, how many different arrangements/combinations are we looking at or do we want to consider.

I am working on this and wrote a hill climber that should solve a 2 keyed cipher among any distribution of rows. Example, key 1 occupies rows 1 to 6 and 15 to 20 and key 2 occupies rows 7 to 14. Another example, key 1 occupies the even rows and key 2 occupies the uneven rows (such as smokie5). It worked very well on smokie5 and and the 340 is running now. I would be happy if someone could make a few more test ciphers that are in line with borkky's hypothesis:

He splits the clear text in two parts, and encodes them separately.
First half with one cipher, the other half with the other cipher, adding filler symbols at the end to produce a neat rectangle.
Then he makes two horizontal cuts, and rearranges the pieces.

[smokie treats]

Smokie 66ABC are all P20. I just used a +/-53 symbol key for the middle rows, and the same key but about 10 extra symbols for the top and bottom rows. That's so I could get a high count of P20 repeats. Cycling is 25% random. There is no homophone, or + symbol, so RAW IOC will be a bit lower than the 340.

A

20 42 49 8 1 6 2 28 51 10 43 9 44 3 29 57 19
11 53 19 57 12 56 24 8 39 21 4 18 36 28 19 25 22
45 61 47 7 42 6 18 38 14 28 11 43 8 15 1 2 16
7 61 31 61 3 32 17 55 48 33 14 53 39 41 54 58 13
16 20 29 60 39 46 19 47 30 32 11 21 32 25 40 22 18
44 19 30 39 33 21 12 5 40 8 21 47 38 24 52 42 3
9 39 36 43 20 15 21 8 18 10 11 12 25 13 32 10 4
39 23 11 20 1 16 25 33 44 12 43 6 40 34 4 19 28
12 9 2 29 37 45 12 30 11 42 20 5 51 21 41 31 3
44 32 14 13 23 12 41 16 18 22 10 38 28 29 5 33 1
23 30 28 17 10 41 7 26 12 16 42 38 15 2 17 3 9
47 24 13 10 16 52 25 20 37 31 29 21 32 1 14 10 33
6 12 41 7 47 39 20 23 6 43 13 50 20 15 28 32 32
19 7 40 19 10 37 11 28 12 33 36 6 49 9 26 29 31
39 13 44 13 11 39 30 13 8 2 14 35 21 3 32 28 37
31 20 59 10 32 36 60 21 33 50 11 16 33 53 7 36 24
53 12 7 44 13 15 16 14 39 46 15 31 38 59 61 14 1
34 54 40 42 10 3 35 52 30 32 40 16 33 25 58 31 26
32 57 16 18 54 12 18 36 3 4 22 13 43 57 9 13 27
56 10 13 12 29 44 60 8 61 45 15 30 24 57 55 53 17

EDIT: B

20 21 23 22 33 6 57 14 38 20 1 10 20 39 43 22 25
40 44 50 26 11 27 12 13 45 18 33 24 16 38 30 56 26
17 57 20 10 15 37 23 25 37 4 21 7 28 31 8 39 2
17 26 17 38 62 16 14 62 19 22 17 11 12 46 41 3 27
35 28 32 55 59 18 22 30 60 42 51 39 32 58 61 28 20
19 21 15 12 1 15 21 44 56 2 40 10 45 56 57 36 47
34 44 45 50 10 42 9 33 19 43 6 19 24 5 1 4 8
21 2 40 22 30 16 18 46 44 27 45 41 31 43 7 11 19
25 3 12 51 42 32 47 30 44 1 40 2 13 33 10 38 34
18 45 26 39 18 9 29 47 15 20 31 6 35 28 29 28 38
10 39 43 41 21 3 44 12 13 50 10 27 21 11 28 20 33
12 13 43 38 25 20 51 37 26 27 28 22 20 25 10 5 11
32 41 18 36 43 47 39 44 21 30 26 27 34 40 17 53 29
45 18 1 25 43 52 12 35 22 20 13 21 2 22 7 10 44
29 56 41 45 42 58 10 11 4 54 16 14 22 31 8 23 12
48 60 46 5 13 61 46 57 29 17 32 16 3 34 9 38 59
56 4 55 30 35 10 40 50 35 24 41 31 11 32 18 43 20
35 1 49 25 26 27 53 29 46 47 58 34 12 21 49 22 44
39 31 5 13 2 25 42 26 56 55 55 60 27 39 49 58 10
45 57 1 11 12 6 18 20 54 21 48 32 6 53 22 62 54

C

9 6 22 37 40 38 10 10 17 30 39 12 27 13 56 28 25
53 33 1 2 34 9 63 10 24 17 37 26 3 31 55 18 35
11 62 23 33 65 59 16 54 1 17 45 38 32 39 23 41 53
7 54 63 19 29 47 37 37 60 2 56 45 16 32 24 3 53
43 14 28 44 11 47 31 42 32 2 40 8 50 20 15 25 38
39 21 28 37 30 38 13 36 9 38 24 43 9 27 43 11 18
46 3 9 35 47 10 19 31 12 11 22 32 54 17 16 9 43
53 21 20 54 19 33 30 28 45 25 19 8 34 26 48 14 43
17 21 5 10 8 49 48 46 24 11 20 39 7 28 25 38 1
18 41 51 2 39 5 3 1 2 41 3 37 29 1 44 2 3
1 9 22 45 10 11 9 38 53 26 10 40 39 31 47 43 37
41 52 54 16 53 39 23 8 53 32 4 39 44 37 11 26 26
28 30 28 9 49 10 21 31 12 42 2 15 45 3 40 1 14
39 26 11 35 32 39 3 17 27 33 19 20 22 28 37 29 30
13 31 2 1 39 35 35 30 9 43 32 33 38 9 34 18 46
31 23 32 24 47 7 11 46 2 12 16 40 44 47 37 15 9
21 17 35 41 40 63 41 19 13 42 56 44 11 45 46 64 10
2 16 23 14 2 20 40 1 11 41 16 42 50 60 16 37 5
38 62 59 65 2 27 56 39 31 23 63 43 44 33 45 9 43
32 37 61 19 3 30 12 18 51 31 58 58 63 22 28 10 23

Let's see if anyone can determine how many rows in the top and bottom, which are the same, have the key with extra symbols.

[Largo]

I would be happy if someone could make a few more test ciphers that are in line with borkky's hypothesis

Here you are:

Largo_Sing_Along

Code: Select all

8z0Oap:sI7n;WGkRN
2XvArxKhPlzMS8QVO
nL9:sJ4t3iZNabfBo
uVUx;AF38isL14qyN
lwuMk2erx8o07sVLd
:=r2vpy8e+aCGxTY0
a5K-p7:qPaRdw0PHM
Vit1o3ZGyTFmSIsji
RmbX=uYvZwBp+T;Lj
Ohn:cNS3;yPFQWfA-
0EkZJWUePFxF9T34J
b;z+Q:VA0LFwCyNBP
0UhtDUePFOMonXlaa
zq2U0pmvaeuuVKDx9
awSVgLiucj:37QyCP
L0rd5pmGw8iVHFtp=
Fox3G1jvMWq9SLPY4
FbI+QwCh57OZVpR0:
VRveZTxkuV;3rIXz5
EB=SoF4WfYb1uuOmw


[smokie treats]

Smokie 66ABC are all P20. I just used a +/-53 symbol key for the middle rows, and the same key but about 10 extra symbols for the top and bottom rows. That's so I could get a high count of P20 repeats. Cycling is 25% random. There is no homophone, or + symbol, so RAW IOC will be a bit lower than the 340.

A

20 42 49 8 1 6 2 28 51 10 43 9 44 3 29 57 19
11 53 19 57 12 56 24 8 39 21 4 18 36 28 19 25 22
45 61 47 7 42 6 18 38 14 28 11 43 8 15 1 2 16
7 61 31 61 3 32 17 55 48 33 14 53 39 41 54 58 13
16 20 29 60 39 46 19 47 30 32 11 21 32 25 40 22 18
44 19 30 39 33 21 12 5 40 8 21 47 38 24 52 42 3
9 39 36 43 20 15 21 8 18 10 11 12 25 13 32 10 4
39 23 11 20 1 16 25 33 44 12 43 6 40 34 4 19 28
12 9 2 29 37 45 12 30 11 42 20 5 51 21 41 31 3
44 32 14 13 23 12 41 16 18 22 10 38 28 29 5 33 1
23 30 28 17 10 41 7 26 12 16 42 38 15 2 17 3 9
47 24 13 10 16 52 25 20 37 31 29 21 32 1 14 10 33
6 12 41 7 47 39 20 23 6 43 13 50 20 15 28 32 32
19 7 40 19 10 37 11 28 12 33 36 6 49 9 26 29 31
39 13 44 13 11 39 30 13 8 2 14 35 21 3 32 28 37
31 20 59 10 32 36 60 21 33 50 11 16 33 53 7 36 24
53 12 7 44 13 15 16 14 39 46 15 31 38 59 61 14 1
34 54 40 42 10 3 35 52 30 32 40 16 33 25 58 31 26
32 57 16 18 54 12 18 36 3 4 22 13 43 57 9 13 27
56 10 13 12 29 44 60 8 61 45 15 30 24 57 55 53 17

EDIT: B

20 21 23 22 33 6 57 14 38 20 1 10 20 39 43 22 25
40 44 50 26 11 27 12 13 45 18 33 24 16 38 30 56 26
17 57 20 10 15 37 23 25 37 4 21 7 28 31 8 39 2
17 26 17 38 62 16 14 62 19 22 17 11 12 46 41 3 27
35 28 32 55 59 18 22 30 60 42 51 39 32 58 61 28 20
19 21 15 12 1 15 21 44 56 2 40 10 45 56 57 36 47
34 44 45 50 10 42 9 33 19 43 6 19 24 5 1 4 8
21 2 40 22 30 16 18 46 44 27 45 41 31 43 7 11 19
25 3 12 51 42 32 47 30 44 1 40 2 13 33 10 38 34
18 45 26 39 18 9 29 47 15 20 31 6 35 28 29 28 38
10 39 43 41 21 3 44 12 13 50 10 27 21 11 28 20 33
12 13 43 38 25 20 51 37 26 27 28 22 20 25 10 5 11
32 41 18 36 43 47 39 44 21 30 26 27 34 40 17 53 29
45 18 1 25 43 52 12 35 22 20 13 21 2 22 7 10 44
29 56 41 45 42 58 10 11 4 54 16 14 22 31 8 23 12
48 60 46 5 13 61 46 57 29 17 32 16 3 34 9 38 59
56 4 55 30 35 10 40 50 35 24 41 31 11 32 18 43 20
35 1 49 25 26 27 53 29 46 47 58 34 12 21 49 22 44
39 31 5 13 2 25 42 26 56 55 55 60 27 39 49 58 10
45 57 1 11 12 6 18 20 54 21 48 32 6 53 22 62 54

C

9 6 22 37 40 38 10 10 17 30 39 12 27 13 56 28 25
53 33 1 2 34 9 63 10 24 17 37 26 3 31 55 18 35
11 62 23 33 65 59 16 54 1 17 45 38 32 39 23 41 53
7 54 63 19 29 47 37 37 60 2 56 45 16 32 24 3 53
43 14 28 44 11 47 31 42 32 2 40 8 50 20 15 25 38
39 21 28 37 30 38 13 36 9 38 24 43 9 27 43 11 18
46 3 9 35 47 10 19 31 12 11 22 32 54 17 16 9 43
53 21 20 54 19 33 30 28 45 25 19 8 34 26 48 14 43
17 21 5 10 8 49 48 46 24 11 20 39 7 28 25 38 1
18 41 51 2 39 5 3 1 2 41 3 37 29 1 44 2 3
1 9 22 45 10 11 9 38 53 26 10 40 39 31 47 43 37
41 52 54 16 53 39 23 8 53 32 4 39 44 37 11 26 26
28 30 28 9 49 10 21 31 12 42 2 15 45 3 40 1 14
39 26 11 35 32 39 3 17 27 33 19 20 22 28 37 29 30
13 31 2 1 39 35 35 30 9 43 32 33 38 9 34 18 46
31 23 32 24 47 7 11 46 2 12 16 40 44 47 37 15 9
21 17 35 41 40 63 41 19 13 42 56 44 11 45 46 64 10
2 16 23 14 2 20 40 1 11 41 16 42 50 60 16 37 5
38 62 59 65 2 27 56 39 31 23 63 43 44 33 45 9 43
32 37 61 19 3 30 12 18 51 31 58 58 63 22 28 10 23

Let's see if anyone can determine how many rows in the top and bottom, which are the same, have the key with extra symbols.

Please forgive me, I made a mistake and use the wrong transposition matrix.

[smokie treats]

Here are the new smokie66ABC messages. The irony is that if I untranspose at period 20 they will solve easily because I only added some symbols to the keys for the top and bottom rows to get the regional biases and high P20 repeats. If you use different keys, then no P20 repeats as we have determined.

A

47 33 38 43 30 19 35 1 59 53 3 27 31 6 20 3 43
49 32 25 17 36 39 20 13 40 21 48 47 37 57 52 14 11
18 29 20 29 4 5 1 56 21 30 55 59 27 21 31 35 16
38 41 38 32 21 56 32 46 12 42 33 28 29 2 17 7 30
44 31 10 1 18 40 23 28 29 26 21 19 11 12 16 41 42
10 21 25 24 37 15 27 11 32 8 38 2 12 30 28 46 35
21 17 45 14 33 31 8 43 11 50 19 28 20 41 27 3 45
16 11 26 42 1 36 44 23 13 49 32 28 10 29 43 41 2
9 27 39 42 37 32 43 41 10 28 11 21 12 31 10 48 9
18 42 29 19 40 22 17 5 8 18 43 20 9 30 27 42 13
35 34 44 11 30 6 28 31 21 12 12 11 12 17 40 3 36
8 5 14 1 24 7 6 4 10 9 14 29 14 43 32 33 10
45 25 15 44 12 10 24 1 43 32 11 31 45 41 8 19 18
13 36 7 27 12 10 6 3 35 20 28 19 29 19 14 7 17
13 36 11 12 32 30 20 27 28 42 16 43 51 1 46 41 42
21 43 10 2 39 26 48 34 44 14 41 11 19 37 18 1 42
10 57 58 29 20 25 36 42 31 33 32 36 56 52 37 30 11
20 43 54 34 52 12 9 31 32 13 19 38 57 39 40 37 24
2 55 52 58 20 56 36 37 24 45 27 38 57 28 59 12 21
10 26 33 24 54 41 23 56 29 31 50 14 6 5 41 32 9

B

44 17 18 39 50 1 2 28 30 57 3 15 19 33 54 20 10
45 6 1 22 2 57 46 20 7 36 37 16 39 53 3 11 59
23 63 34 55 54 41 28 49 42 34 44 56 45 1 45 25 55
26 51 11 55 17 63 40 44 43 33 21 42 13 19 2 3 32
19 12 38 41 20 34 41 56 17 55 57 48 25 59 60 44 57
36 20 21 12 1 41 33 31 14 45 10 11 8 32 39 10 15
25 17 46 26 32 10 11 9 44 45 16 50 38 38 40 1 15
2 34 46 8 10 28 11 42 42 52 11 18 51 44 19 48 45
3 27 4 31 32 17 22 37 3 46 2 3 1 39 10 35 33
22 6 2 41 34 34 7 44 47 10 1 9 13 30 25 29 45
31 11 50 6 24 26 42 48 26 12 18 43 38 39 11 21 9
25 36 19 33 1 2 17 45 34 18 9 8 3 11 5 41 43
19 40 44 14 26 12 4 16 38 5 17 32 11 7 30 45 39
11 46 27 21 43 18 35 11 43 41 27 9 33 40 43 13 38
10 34 11 41 35 12 28 46 12 26 34 34 11 12 42 39 35
2 27 53 41 31 14 37 34 53 42 17 57 58 14 34 39 43
45 11 47 32 12 20 62 6 35 34 23 2 12 21 40 34 46
63 49 35 17 3 15 8 50 59 1 10 61 23 36 30 25 41
7 50 19 56 20 31 11 42 17 45 48 9 32 62 12 55 2
8 14 7 60 22 11 43 59 45 29 30 51 18 46 20 9 19

C

48 4 9 41 35 10 13 1 6 36 2 1 6 23 30 19 38
31 24 29 20 11 37 17 54 32 12 7 56 58 39 37 30 5
50 55 42 8 9 31 28 46 26 10 23 14 35 7 7 43 61
60 29 32 56 43 37 44 60 49 11 12 55 36 6 15 26 19
38 18 6 20 46 17 7 21 1 6 30 57 56 59 28 13 18
36 9 42 11 11 30 28 12 31 55 12 20 10 13 46 39 2
41 35 10 1 27 19 28 36 29 42 37 24 8 38 27 7 48
2 3 16 11 45 25 33 42 32 53 28 39 17 41 1 20 32
40 21 19 37 29 12 8 20 21 9 49 27 51 44 45 10 38
29 13 14 30 13 29 21 3 26 15 42 5 40 20 31 25 43
26 15 41 7 14 15 13 13 12 3 23 2 35 40 2 24 42
13 12 37 9 35 18 6 10 36 52 11 43 41 6 8 1 42
24 12 17 38 39 19 40 1 9 2 37 3 10 35 18 19 32
11 34 17 4 43 30 44 48 12 41 33 25 36 9 34 1 9
55 30 18 14 9 10 54 60 45 16 1 57 17 11 56 4 27
9 40 28 49 27 30 35 39 57 24 61 41 54 42 43 55 40
27 32 61 60 41 42 9 38 23 30 30 3 54 18 43 36 9
39 40 1 61 28 47 1 60 38 23 37 19 26 59 41 29 11
17 39 35 51 44 57 31 7 3 27 33 42 23 12 6 14 31
45 5 26 55 54 58 10 16 8 1 20 36 7 37 52 22 40

[borkky]

Tonight I extended a little on the widget, added a info box about the "center" area.

https://martinlindhe.github.io/zodiac-widget/

[Jarlve]

Tonight I extended a little on the widget, added a info box about the "center" area.

https://martinlindhe.github.io/zodiac-widget/

This widget investigates the observation that an unusual number of symbols are missing from the middle rows, as noted by smokie treats

Sorry to bring this up borkky, I can be a little pedantic. If memory serves well then I believe it was me who first made this observation. At the main post of this thread and almost a year earlier in the Route Transposition and Phenomenon thread:

by Jarlve » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:02 am

Thanks doranchak,

I've been looking at the distances between symbols and that these may be related to the encoding. While I was trying to distinguish between palindromic and randomization I stumbled upon another weird thing in the 340. If you square all the distances between the symbols and total it you will find that the 340 scores very highly compared to other ciphers. Here is why.



On average, less frequent symbols will show a greater distance between each other than more frequent occurring symbols, but why is this such a default thing in the 340 with top-bottom symmetry to boot?

[Jarlve]

I would be happy if someone could make a few more test ciphers that are in line with borkky's hypothesis

Here you are:

Largo_Sing_Along

Code: Select all

8z0Oap:sI7n;WGkRN
2XvArxKhPlzMS8QVO
nL9:sJ4t3iZNabfBo
uVUx;AF38isL14qyN
lwuMk2erx8o07sVLd
:=r2vpy8e+aCGxTY0
a5K-p7:qPaRdw0PHM
Vit1o3ZGyTFmSIsji
RmbX=uYvZwBp+T;Lj
Ohn:cNS3;yPFQWfA-
0EkZJWUePFxF9T34J
b;z+Q:VA0LFwCyNBP
0UhtDUePFOMonXlaa
zq2U0pmvaeuuVKDx9
awSVgLiucj:37QyCP
L0rd5pmGw8iVHFtp=
Fox3G1jvMWq9SLPY4
FbI+QwCh57OZVpR0:
VRveZTxkuV;3rIXz5
EB=SoF4WfYb1uuOmw


Thank you, no periodic transposition right? It is running now and may take a while.

[borkky]

Sorry to bring this up borkky, I can be a little pedantic. If memory serves well then I believe it was me who first made this observation. At the main post of this thread and almost a year earlier in the Route Transposition and Phenomenon thread:

by Jarlve » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:02 am

Thanks doranchak,

I've been looking at the distances between symbols and that these may be related to the encoding. While I was trying to distinguish between palindromic and randomization I stumbled upon another weird thing in the 340. If you square all the distances between the symbols and total it you will find that the 340 scores very highly compared to other ciphers. Here is why.



On average, less frequent symbols will show a greater distance between each other than more frequent occurring symbols, but why is this such a default thing in the 340 with top-bottom symmetry to boot?

Of course credit should be right!

As I'm new here, I found the info from the wiki http://zodiackillerciphers.com/wiki/ind ... tions#Z340 under "Unigrams":

Some symbols are exclusive to the first 6 and last 6 rows. An unusual number of symbols are missing from the middle 8 rows. (Source: smokie treats)

I won't judge who was first with the idea. Are you ok if i write "credit Jarlve & smokie treats"?, since he detailed the separation more?