CIPHER STRUCTURE

[glurk]

It's amazing that people are now thinking of ideas we already tried 10 years ago. That's cool, I guess. No harm in doing it all over again.

You never know until you try it for yourself.

-glurk

[doranchak]

One difference is that they are applying different algorithms to the already-explored ideas. I suppose that aspect is new.

[glurk]

It's true, at least in this thread. I surely do not want to discourage anyone, ever. I think I just have spent too much time on the ciphers and have gotten frustrated!

-glurk

EDIT: I come across as "Negative Nellie" or something a lot, and I do not mean to. Carry on. Someone may find a new thing.

[smokie treats]

My latest idea is that if wildcards and cycles can be identified, we can expand wildcards into individual symbols and merge cycles into single symbols, incrementally so that multiplicity is kept at a minimum, until we can use ZKD1.2 to find a solution.

So I decided to make my own message and cipher, apply wildcards one at a time to find out how ZKD solves, and find a point where the scoring and readability is similar ZKD 340 results (at 15 minutes, score of 32969 with default values).

Using the unoriginal "I like killing" first 340 of the 408, I made this cipher and coded message:

A 1 2 3 4 5
B 6
C 7 8
D 9 10 11
E 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
F 19
G 20
H 21 22 23 24
I 25 26 27 28
J
K 29
L 30 31 32
M 33 34
N 35 36 37 38
O 39 40 41 42 43
P 44
Q
R 45 46 47 48
S 49 50 51 52
T 53 54 55 56 57
U 58
V 59
W 60
X 61
Y 62
Z

25 30 26 29 12 29 27 31 32 28 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 6 15 7 1 58 49 16 25 53 26 50 51 40 33 58 8
21 19 58 36 27 54 28 52 34 41 45 17 19 58 37 55 22
2 38 29 25 31 32 26 35 20 60 27 30 9 20 3 33 18
28 36 56 23 12 19 42 46 47 13 49 57 6 14 7 4 58
50 15 34 5 37 25 51 53 24 16 33 43 52 54 10 1 38
20 17 48 39 58 49 2 35 26 34 3 31 40 19 4 32 30
55 41 29 27 31 32 50 42 33 18 56 21 28 36 20 20 25
59 12 51 34 13 57 22 14 33 43 52 53 54 23 45 26 30
31 27 37 20 15 61 44 16 46 17 38 8 18 28 49 12 59
13 35 6 14 55 56 15 47 57 24 5 36 20 16 53 54 25
37 20 62 39 58 48 45 40 7 29 50 41 19 19 60 26 55
21 1 20 27 46 32 56 22 17 6 18 51 57 44 2 47 53
42 19 28 54 25 52 55 23 3 56 60 24 12 38 26 60 27
30 31 6 13 48 14 6 43 45 35 28 36 44 4 46 5 11
25 8 15 1 37 9 2 32 30 57 21 16 26 22 3 59 17
29 27 31 32 18 10 60 28 30 31 6 12 7 39 34 13 33
62 49 32 4 59 14 50 25 60 26 30 31 38 40 53 20 27
59 15 62 41 58 34 62 35 5 33 16 6 17 8 1 58 51
18 62 42 58 60 28 32 30 54 47 62 55 43 52 31 39 60

Then I substituted 63 where 19 appears in the 340 (not shown here) and got a somewhat readable solution score 36840 in 15 minutes:

I L I D E D I D L I N G P E O P L
E B S C A U S E I T I S S O R U C
H F U N I S I U M O R E F U N T H
A N D I D L I N G W I L S S A R E
I N T S E F O R R E S T S E C A U
S E M A N I S T H E R O U T E A N
G E S O U S A N I M A D O F A L L
T O D I D L S O S E T H I S G G I
V E S S E S H E R O U T T H R I L
D I N G E S P E S E N C E I S E V
E S B E T T E R T H A N G E T T I
N G Y O U T R O C D S O F S W I T
H A G I R L S H E B E S T P A R T
O F I T I U T H A T W H E N I S S
L D B E T E B O R N I N P A R A S
I C E A N D A L L T H E I H A V E
D I D S E E W I L S B E C O M E R
S S L A V E S I W I L D N O T G I
V E Y O U M Y N A R E B E C A U S
E Y O U W I L L T R Y T O U D O S

Then I expanded the 63 into 24 individual symbols (not shown here) and got a good readable solution score 42203 in 15 minutes:

I L I K E K I L L I N G P E O P L
E R E C A U S E I T I S S O M U C
H F U N I T I S M O R E F U N T H
A N K I L L I N G W I L E S A M E
I N T H E F O R R E S T B E C A U
S E M A N I S T H E M O S T D A N
G E Y O U S A N I M A L O F A L L
T O K I L L S O N E T H I N G G I
V E S E E T H E M O S T T H R I L
L I N G E O P E R E N C E I S E V
E A R E T T E R T H A N G E T T I
N G Y O U P R O C K S O F F W I T
H A G I R L T H E R E S T P A R T
O F I T I S T H A T W H E N I W I
L L R E P E R O R N I N P A R A G
I C E A N D A L L T H E I H A V E
K I L I E D W I L D R E C O M E M
E A L A V E S I W I L L N O T G I
V E Y O U M Y N A M E R E C A U S
E Y O U W I L L T R Y T O S L O U

Then I added 63 where 19 appears and 64 where 5 appears in the 340 and still got a somewhat readable solution score 36015 in 15 minutes:

25 30 26 29 64 29 27 31 32 28 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 64 63 7 1 58 49 16 25 53 26 50 51 40 33 58 8
21 19 58 36 27 63 28 52 34 41 45 17 19 58 37 55 22
2 64 64 25 31 32 26 35 20 60 64 30 63 63 3 33 18
28 36 56 63 12 19 42 46 47 13 49 57 63 14 7 4 58
64 15 34 5 37 25 51 53 24 16 33 43 52 54 10 1 38
20 17 63 39 58 49 2 35 26 34 3 31 40 19 4 32 30
55 41 29 27 31 32 50 42 63 18 56 21 28 63 20 20 25
59 12 51 63 13 63 22 14 33 43 52 53 54 23 45 26 30
31 27 37 20 15 63 44 16 63 17 64 8 18 28 49 12 59
13 63 6 14 55 56 15 47 57 24 5 64 20 16 53 54 25
37 20 62 39 58 48 45 40 7 29 50 41 19 63 60 26 55
21 1 20 27 46 32 63 22 17 6 18 51 57 44 2 47 53
42 19 28 54 25 52 55 23 3 56 60 24 12 38 26 63 63
30 31 6 13 48 14 6 43 45 35 28 36 44 4 46 5 63
25 8 15 1 37 9 2 32 30 64 21 16 26 22 3 59 17
29 27 31 63 18 10 60 28 30 63 6 12 7 39 34 13 33
63 63 32 4 59 14 50 25 60 26 30 31 38 40 53 20 64
59 15 62 41 58 34 62 35 5 33 16 6 17 8 1 58 51
18 62 42 58 60 64 32 30 54 47 62 55 43 52 31 39 63

I L I T A T A L L I N G P E O P L
E A S C A U S E I T I S S E D U C
H F U N A S I N M O R E F U N T H
A A A I L L I N G W A L S S A D E
I N T S E F O U R E S T S E C O U
A E M I N I S T H E D O N T D A R
G E S O U S A N I M A L E F O L L
T O T A L L S O S E T H I S G G I
V E S S E S H E D O N T T H R I L
L A N G E S P E S E A C E I S E V
E S B E T T E R T H I A G E T T I
N G Y O U R R E C T S O F S W I T
H A G A U L S H E B E S T P A R T
O F I T I N T H A T W H E R I S S
L L B E R E B O R N I N P O U I S
I C E A N D A L L A H E I H A V E
T A L S E D W I L S B E C O M E D
S S L O V E S I W I L L R E T G A
V E Y O U M Y N I D E B E C A U S
E Y O U W A L L T R Y T O N L O S

Then I expanded both 63 and 64 into individual symbols and again got a somewhat readable solution with multiplicity 0.279 and score 42247:

25 30 26 29 101 29 27 31 32 28 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 102 121 7 1 58 49 16 25 53 26 50 51 40 33 58 8
21 19 58 36 27 122 28 52 34 41 45 17 19 58 37 55 22
2 103 104 25 31 32 26 35 20 60 105 30 123 124 3 33 18
28 36 56 125 12 19 42 46 47 13 49 57 126 14 7 4 58
106 15 34 5 37 25 51 53 24 16 33 43 52 54 10 1 38
20 17 127 39 58 49 2 35 26 34 3 31 40 19 4 32 30
55 41 29 27 31 32 50 42 128 18 56 21 28 129 20 20 25
59 12 51 130 13 131 22 14 33 43 52 53 54 23 45 26 30
31 27 37 20 15 132 44 16 133 17 107 8 18 28 49 12 59
13 134 6 14 55 56 15 47 57 24 5 108 20 16 53 54 25
37 20 62 39 58 48 45 40 7 29 50 41 19 135 60 26 55
21 1 20 27 46 32 136 22 17 6 18 51 57 44 2 47 53
42 19 28 54 25 52 55 23 3 56 60 24 12 38 26 137 138
30 31 6 13 48 14 6 43 45 35 28 36 44 4 46 5 139
25 8 15 1 37 9 2 32 30 109 21 16 26 22 3 59 17
29 27 31 140 18 10 60 28 30 141 6 12 7 39 34 13 33
142 143 32 4 59 14 50 25 60 26 30 31 38 40 53 20 110
59 15 62 41 58 34 62 35 5 33 16 6 17 8 1 58 51
18 62 42 58 60 111 32 30 54 47 62 55 43 52 31 39 144

I L I T A T A L L I N G P E O P L
E B E C A U S E I T I S S O M U C
H F U N A S I S M O R E F U N T H
A D F I L L I N G W I L E C A M E
I N T H E F O R R E S T H E C A U
S E M A N I S T H E M O S T D A N
G E Y O U S A N I M A L O F A L L
T O T A L L S O G E T H I N G G I
V E S E E T H E M O S T T H R I L
L A N G E O P E R E A C E I S E V
E R R E T T E R T H A N G E T T I
N G Y O U P R O C T S O F E W I T
H A G A R L E H E R E S T P A R T
O F I T I S T H A T W H E N I W I
L L R E P E R O R N I N P A R A D
I C E A N D A L L T H E I H A V E
T A L K E D W I L L R E C O M E M
O U L A V E S I W I L L N O T G I
V E Y O U M Y N A M E R E C A U S
E Y O U W I L L T R Y T O S L O U

So even with two wildcards, ZKD1.2 was able to find a solution with sentence fragments of several words, and expanding the wildcards worked!

[smokie treats]

When I add a third wildcard, 65 where 20 appears in the 340 and all wildcards not yet expanded, I get unreadable gibberish score 33253:

25 30 26 29 64 29 27 31 32 28 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 64 63 65 1 58 49 16 25 53 26 50 51 40 33 58 8
65 19 58 36 27 63 28 52 34 41 45 17 19 58 37 55 22
2 64 64 25 31 32 26 35 20 60 64 30 63 63 3 33 18
28 36 56 63 12 19 42 46 47 13 49 57 63 14 7 4 58
64 15 34 5 37 25 51 53 24 16 33 43 52 54 10 1 38
20 17 63 39 58 49 2 35 26 34 3 31 40 19 4 32 30
55 41 29 27 31 32 50 42 63 18 56 21 28 63 20 20 25
59 12 51 63 13 63 22 14 33 43 65 53 54 23 45 26 30
31 27 37 20 15 63 44 16 63 17 64 8 18 28 65 12 59
13 63 6 14 55 56 15 47 57 24 65 64 20 16 53 54 25
37 20 62 39 58 48 45 40 7 29 50 41 19 63 60 65 55
21 1 20 27 46 32 63 22 17 6 18 65 57 44 2 47 53
42 19 28 54 25 52 55 23 3 56 60 24 12 38 26 63 63
30 65 6 13 48 14 6 43 45 35 28 36 44 4 46 5 63
25 8 15 1 37 65 2 32 30 64 21 16 26 22 3 59 17
29 27 31 63 18 10 60 28 30 63 6 12 7 65 34 13 33
63 63 32 4 59 14 50 25 60 26 30 31 38 40 53 20 64
59 15 62 41 58 34 62 35 65 33 16 6 65 8 1 58 51
18 62 42 58 60 64 32 30 54 47 62 55 43 52 31 39 63

A I A M R M A N D H C H H E T H I
E R S E F O R E A D A L R E R O S
E T O O A S H I N G S E T O W N B
E R R A N D A C H T R I S S O R T
H O U S A T I N L E R D S E P O O
R I N E W A R D H E R T I L O F T
H E S T O R E C A N O N E T O D I
N G M A N D L I S T U S H S H H A
V A R S E S B E R T E D L Y S A I
N A W H I S H E S E R S T H E A V
E S C E N U I L D H E R H E D L A
W H A T O U S E P M L G T S T E N
S F H A N D S B E C T E D H E L D
I T H L A I N Y O U T H A T A S S
I E C E U E C T S C H O H O N E S
A S I F W E E D I R S E A B O V E
M A N S T O T H I S C A P E N E R
S S D O V E L A T A I N T E D H R
V I A G O N A C E R E C E S F O R
T A I O T R D I L L A N T I N T S

When I expand wildcards 63, 64 and 65 into individual symbols for multiplicity of 0.312, I get a higher score 39652, but unreadable message:

25 30 26 29 101 29 27 31 32 28 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 102 121 151 1 58 49 16 25 53 26 50 51 40 33 58 8
152 19 58 36 27 122 28 52 34 41 45 17 19 58 37 55 22
2 103 104 25 31 32 26 35 20 60 105 30 123 124 3 33 18
28 36 56 125 12 19 42 46 47 13 49 57 126 14 7 4 58
106 15 34 5 37 25 51 53 24 16 33 43 52 54 10 1 38
20 17 127 39 58 49 2 35 26 34 3 31 40 19 4 32 30
55 41 29 27 31 32 50 42 128 18 56 21 28 129 20 20 25
59 12 51 130 13 131 22 14 33 43 153 53 54 23 45 26 30
31 27 37 20 15 132 44 16 133 17 107 8 18 28 154 12 59
13 134 6 14 55 56 15 47 57 24 155 108 20 16 53 54 25
37 20 62 39 58 48 45 40 7 29 50 41 19 135 60 156 55
21 1 20 27 46 32 136 22 17 6 18 157 57 44 2 47 53
42 19 28 54 25 52 55 23 3 56 60 24 12 38 26 137 138
30 158 6 13 48 14 6 43 45 35 28 36 44 4 46 5 139
25 8 15 1 37 159 2 32 30 109 21 16 26 22 3 59 17
29 27 31 140 18 10 60 28 30 141 6 12 7 160 34 13 33
142 143 32 4 59 14 50 25 60 26 30 31 38 40 53 20 110
59 15 62 41 58 34 62 35 161 33 16 6 162 8 1 58 51
18 62 42 58 60 111 32 30 54 47 62 55 43 52 31 39 144

H D N C E C O M E N A T E R R E D
H E W A Y S O W H I N A P L E S T
H I S G O I N E D T O H I S S I T
M U C H M E N A T A N D I S H E A
N G L E S I N M O R O F T H E R S
O L D I S H P I Y W E R E T L Y A
T H E R S O M A N D H M L I R E D
I T C O M E A N D A L O N A T T H
E S P A R E T H E R S I T C O N D
M O S T L U E W T H A T A N D S E
R V E H I L L O F Y O U T W I T H
S T I R S T O L E C A T I N A T I
O Y T O M E S T H E A F F E M O I
N I N T H E I C H L A Y S A N D E
D B E R T H E R O A N G E R M I G
H T L Y S O M E D T O W N T H E H
C O M P A L A N D B E S E N D R E
S W E R E H A H A N D M A L I T H
E L I T S D I A R E W E N T Y S P
A I N S A R E D T O I I R E M R K

My conclusion is that if the 340 is anything like the model, then it must have more than two wildcards. The good thing to know is that we don't necessarily have to compensate for the high count of symbol 19, or "+", by merging a lot of cycles. Perhaps we can merge only enough cycles to compensate for some of the wildcards with lower counts, like 5 or 20 ("q" or "B").

[smokie treats]

Using the last experiment where 63, 64 and 65 were expanded, I merged the cycles with 2 to 4 symbols in them to see what would happen. I got the symbol count and multiplicity down to 87 and 0.256 for a fairly readable solution with score 43403:

25 30 25 29 101 29 25 30 30 25 35 20 44 13 39 44 30
14 102 121 151 1 58 49 16 25 53 25 49 49 40 33 58 7
152 19 58 35 25 122 25 49 33 41 45 17 19 58 35 55 21
2 103 104 25 30 30 25 35 20 60 105 30 123 124 3 33 18
25 35 56 125 12 19 42 45 45 13 49 57 126 14 7 4 58
106 15 33 5 35 25 49 53 21 16 33 43 49 54 9 1 35
20 17 127 39 58 49 2 35 25 33 3 30 40 19 4 30 30
55 41 29 25 30 30 49 42 128 18 56 21 25 129 20 20 25
59 12 49 130 13 131 21 14 33 43 153 53 54 21 45 25 30
30 25 35 20 15 132 44 16 133 17 107 7 18 25 154 12 59
13 134 6 14 55 56 15 45 57 21 155 108 20 16 53 54 25
35 20 62 39 58 45 45 40 7 29 49 41 19 135 60 156 55
21 1 20 25 45 30 136 21 17 6 18 157 57 44 2 45 53
42 19 25 54 25 49 55 21 3 56 60 21 12 35 25 137 138
30 158 6 13 45 14 6 43 45 35 25 35 44 4 45 5 139
25 7 15 1 35 159 2 30 30 109 21 16 25 21 3 59 17
29 25 30 140 18 9 60 25 30 141 6 12 7 160 33 13 33
142 143 30 4 59 14 49 25 60 25 30 30 35 40 53 20 110
59 15 62 41 58 33 62 35 161 33 16 6 162 7 1 58 49
18 62 42 58 60 111 30 30 54 45 62 55 43 49 30 39 144

I L I K E K I L L I N G P E O P L
E A S P A U S E I T I S S O M U C
H F U N I T I S M O R E F U N T H
A D W I L L I N G T O L E C A M E
I N T H E F O R R E S T H E C A U
S E M I N I S T H E M O S T R A N
G E R O U S A N I M A L O F A L L
T O K I L L S O M E T H I N G G I
V E S H E D H E M O U T T H R I L
L I N G E S P E R E N C E I N E V
E R B E T T E R T H I N G E T T I
N G Y O U R R O C K S O F I T I T
H A G I R L S H E B E S T P A R T
O F I T I S T H A T T H E N I N G
L Y B E R E B O R N I N P A R I F
I C E A N D A L L T H E I H A V E
K I L L E R T I L L B E C O M E M
E D L A V E S I T I L L N O T G I
V E Y O U M Y N A M E B E C A U S
E Y O U T A L L T R Y T O S L O W

So it could work. A combination of incremental expanding of wildcards and merging of cycles maybe could be used to find a solution...

Smokie

[Jarlve]

Hey smokie,

Your wildcard hypothesis is still on my mind also. Because, it may be a bit strange for a 63 symbol cipher to have possibly 4+ 1:1 substitutes. Ofcourse there are other alternatives. It's DARPA hard.

[smokie treats]

Jarlve,

It is hard, and probably beyond my abilities to do anything about it. But Quicktrader was right. The cycles are there and that's the best approach.

Let me ask you, don't the cycles prove that the message is left right top down? Or asked another way, is there any way to construct a ciphered message that isn't left right top down, but results in cycles with the same statistics?

I think that you were on the right track with the transposition idea also. Few of the cycles are perfect throughout.

Regarding your last comment about 4+ 1:1. See Quicktrader's first post.



In the 408, Zodiac used high count 1:1 for letters B, C, G, M, W and Y. And there is 1:1 for P and V also.

My last set of experiments show that ZKD1.2 can find a somewhat readable solution with two polyalphabetic symbols with total count 35. Add one more polyalphabetic symbol with count of 10, and you have an unsolvable message.

Smokie

[doranchak]

Let me ask you, don't the cycles prove that the message is left right top down? Or asked another way, is there any way to construct a ciphered message that isn't left right top down, but results in cycles with the same statistics?

I think all you would have to do is rewrite the plaintext in the different direction (let's say down-top-right-left), and then assign the symbols by reading the result in the normal order (left-right-top-down) and cycling through the symbols for high-frequency letters.

[smokie treats]

O.k., I see that. He could have written the message in any direction and assigned cycle symbols left to right, top to bottom. So I guess that's where we are. Wildcards or a different message route.

EDIT: Is there any other way to get the same cycle score distribution that you made?