glurk's challenge to bmichelle

[bmichelle]

Posted by glurk

Postby glurk » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:10 am
bmichelle-

Here is a 17x20 block of text - you might recognize it - can you search this one for Zodiac related words? It may be a revealing experiment.

HITHEREMYNAMEISMI
CHELLEIHAVEENJOYE
DALLTHELINKSTHATA
LWAYSLEADMEBACKTO
THISSITESOITHOUGH
TISHOULDJOINUPAND
READUPONALLTHEINT
ERSTINGTHINGSTHAT
AREPOSTEDIENJOYRE
ADINGPOSTSBUTTOBE
HONESTIHAVENOTPOS
TEDINMANYFORUMSIA
MNEWATTHISSOPLEAS
EEXCUSEANYERRORSI
MAYMAKEATFIRSTREG
ARDINGWHATIDOALSO
IMUSTCONFESSICOUL
DYOUASPELLCHECKCO
NNECTEDTOMYTYPING
HANDSBUTNOSUCHLUC


glurk-

I decided to take up your challenge and it was most definitely a revealing experiment.

What did I discover----

In the first image I worked it the same way that I always do. I discovered that with the words providing by you, it did not convince me that I nor Penn is the zodiac.

Unlike the first image--- the second image (I created) shows Penn inside and out as the Zodiac.

Am I enlightened? Yes. Thank you! I am on the right track.

bmichelle

glurks attempt to enlighten me.png

Garth Penn Word S.png

[Jarlve]

glurk=Gareth Penn? That is indeed revealing!

Btw, your method is grid-based omnidirectional anagramming, not word search.

[AK Wilks]

Well I don't think you took Glurk's challenge very seriously. He asked you to look for Zodiac related words, not just Penn. You only found one Penn. I found three PENN's, and a GARET. I also found two clues to my POI, who is TED. Maybe Z was a woman, and a MAID or a NUN. Maybe AIDS was involved. Maybe Z was a TERRORIST. Certainly after the Stine murder his shirt might have been SOAK with blood. I found a TELL, and with letters right near it you could create Penn's middle name SEWELL.

That is what I found after about 6 minutes of looking.

With a computer program glurk or doranchak could probably find dozens maybe even hundreds more words in this grid or your grid.

I think by going omnidirectional and using anagrams you create too many possibilities, so it impossible to tell which if any were intended and which of the dozens are just chance. I can tell you from experience that glurk is actually trying to help you. I can also tell you from experience that the FBI and police will not consider any proposed code solutions that involve multidirectional word finds and wide anagrams. If you want to ignore advice from people like glurk and myself who have spent years and years on the codes, that is your right.

At one time I thought I might have discovered a code in the Tylenol case. I sent my material to the FBI, the codes along with some good fact based geographical and other info. And it got thrown in the garbage. No response. Criticism from glurk and doranchak convinced me that my code work had too wide parameters and too wide anagrams. I dropped it. When I resent my info to the FBI without the code work and wide anagrams, they called me on the phone, asked good questions about my other research, and the end result was the FBI approached my POI for a DNA sample. At first I was angry about the criticisms. But ultimately the criticism helped me sharpen my approach and advanced the case.

At one time I also thought there were word finds in the 340 and 408. I still think there may be actual vertical words put into the 408 and 340 solutions, but they are vertical or diagonal, straight, correct spelling, no anagrams, no shifties, no twisties. I still look at some of these ideas, but within those strict parameters. Even in those strict parameters, it is very hard to say if these were intentionally put there by Zodiac or are just white noise you get from any grid. Let me know if you want to see my 408 grid, if you do i will post it here.

I used to spend a LOT of time on possible wide anagram solutions, but glurk and doranchak showed me the hundreds of possible wide anagrams that can be created, and I determined that further pursuit of wide anagrams was wasting my time and hurting the credibility of my other fact based research. To each his own. By wide anagrams I mean were the letters are very scrambled. So LASTB is an example of a tight anagram - shift one letter and you have a word. I disagree with glurk in that I think tight anagrams may have been used by Z. But TABLS is a wide anagram. TAMLHBSF is an even wider anagram. I now reject wide anagrams, thanks to thoughtful criticisms and analysis of them by people like glurk and doranchak. What you are doing combines omnidirectional word finds with wide anagrams.

Glurk Puzzle New Small.jpg

So I offer this criticism as a friendly way to say just think about it. Ultimately if you feel it is valid, you will pursue it. I can tell you my experience that by listening to the criticisms about wide anagrams, it made my work much sharper, more focused and better. The thoughtful criticisms prevented me from wasting time going down blind alleys. Also, Penn was not Zodiac! Too tall and he had long hair and a beard in the 68-69 time period. No evidence shows he was Zodiac. At the time of the Bates murder he was in the Army in Oklahoma. But we could discuss that on the Penn section in our suspects section.

Gareth Penn.jpg

[Zamantha]

Well I don't think you took Glurk's challenge very seriously. He asked you to look for Zodiac related words, not just Penn. You only found one Penn. I found three PENN's, and a GARET. I also found two clues to my POI, who is TED. Maybe Z was a woman, and a MAID or a NUN. Maybe AIDS was involved. Maybe Z was a TERRORIST. Certainly after the Stine murder his shirt might have been SOAK with blood. I found a TELL, and with letters right near it you could create Penn's middle name SEWELL.

That is what I found after about 6 minutes of looking.

With a computer program glurk or doranchak could probably find dozens maybe even hundreds more words in this grid or your grid.

I think by going omnidirectional and using anagrams you create too many possibilities, so it impossible to tell which if any were intended and which of the dozens are just chance. I can tell you from experience that glurk is actually trying to help you. I can also tell you from experience that the FBI and police will not consider any proposed code solutions that involve multidirectional word finds and wide anagrams. If you want to ignore advice from people like glurk and myself who have spent years and years on the codes, that is your right.

At one time I also thought there were word finds in the 340 and 408. I still think there may be actual vertical words put into the 408 and 340 solutions, but they are vertical or diagonal, straight, correct spelling, no anagrams, no shifties, no twisties. I still look at some of these ideas, but within those strict parameters. Even in those strict parameters, it is very hard to say if these were intentionally put there by Zodiac or are just white noise you get from any grid. Let me know if you want to see my 408 grid, if you do i will post it here.

I used to spend a LOT of time on possible anagram solutions, but glurk and doranchak showed me the hundreds of possible wide anagrams that can be created, and I determined that further pursuit of wide anagrams was wasting my time and hurting the credibility of my other fact based research. To each his own. By wide anagrams I mean were the letters are very scrambled. So LASTB is an example of a tight anagram - shift one letter and you have a word. TABLS is a wide anagram. TAMLHBSF is an even wider anagram. What you are doing combines omnidirectional word finds with wide anagrams.

Glurk Puzzle New Small.jpg

Great post AK! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Zam*

[AK Wilks]

Thanks Zam! That is my two cents, and I will let glurk take it from here, if he wants to. Bmichelle has some interesting ideas and I welcome her to the forum. It might seems funny, after some of the epic arguments, er discussions, that I have had with glurk and doranchak, to be taking this point of view. But thoughtful, respectful, intelligent criticism can be very helpful! I know it helped me a lot!

[doranchak]

Great post AK! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Zam*

Ditto!

[doranchak]

bmichelle, you did not make an honest attempt to find Penn and Zodiac related words. There are numerous words in your own post if you take the time to look.

Gareth

Amateur detective

Looking into the crimes

Wrote in the Ecphorizor

In San Fran

Member of Mensa

Wrote an article called "Gottfried von Strassburg and the Invisible Art"


Which was about the legend of Tristan

In Celtic folklore

Father is Hugh Scott Penn

Who was a cryptographer

Gareth wrote "The Second Power"

And "Portrait of the Artist as a Mass Murderer"


Accuses Michael Henry O'Hare



Zodiac victim Paul Stine

Penn believes Zodiac killed Joan Lucinda Webster


Zodiac victim Bryan Hartnell


Darlene Ferrin


Betty Lou Jensen


Donna Lass


Cheri Jo Bates


Penn's wife Sandy Scott

They lived in Germany

In Berlin

Had a daughter, Christiane

Mentions Kafka's "The Castle" in his description of the military

Penn was also in the Army

Trained on the rifle

Trained in Fort Sill

On artillery

And as a surveyor

After divorcing Penn, Sandra Scott married Patrick Hiyashi


Who worked at Goldman school (where O'Hare once worked)

Penn wrote a paper with Frederic Tubach


Published in Monatshefte

Later became interested in geodesic dome houses


Published under the pen name "George Oakes"

Lived in Napa

Married second wife, Mary Ann

Who worked in Solano

Daughter named Amanda

Penn discovered "Radian Theory"


Using protractor to measure angle linking crimes


Mt Diablo

Washington Street


Presidio Heights


Lake Herman Road


Robert Graysmith



How did all those Penn and Zodiac words appear in that small amount of text glurk sampled from your post? Answer: Completely by chance. Just like the Penn-related words you've highlighted in the Melvin letter.

[doranchak]

Oh and here's his middle name, Sewell:

[bmichelle]

Well I don't think you took Glurk's challenge very seriously. He asked you to look for Zodiac related words, not just Penn. You only found one Penn. I found three PENN's, and a GARET. I also found two clues to my POI, who is TED. Maybe Z was a woman, and a MAID or a NUN. Maybe AIDS was involved. Maybe Z was a TERRORIST. Certainly after the Stine murder his shirt might have been SOAK with blood. I found a TELL, and with letters right near it you could create Penn's middle name SEWELL.

That is what I found after about 6 minutes of looking.

With a computer program glurk or doranchak could probably find dozens maybe even hundreds more words in this grid or your grid.

I think by going omnidirectional and using anagrams you create too many possibilities, so it impossible to tell which if any were intended and which of the dozens are just chance. I can tell you from experience that glurk is actually trying to help you. I can also tell you from experience that the FBI and police will not consider any proposed code solutions that involve multidirectional word finds and wide anagrams. If you want to ignore advice from people like glurk and myself who have spent years and years on the codes, that is your right.

At one time I thought I might have discovered a code in the Tylenol case. I sent my material to the FBI, the codes along with some good fact based geographical and other info. And it got thrown in the garbage. No response. Criticism from glurk and doranchak convinced me that my code work had too wide parameters and too wide anagrams. I dropped it. When I resent my info to the FBI without the code work and wide anagrams, they called me on the phone, asked good questions about my other research, and the end result was the FBI approached my POI for a DNA sample. At first I was angry about the criticisms. But ultimately the criticism helped me sharpen my approach and advanced the case.

At one time I also thought there were word finds in the 340 and 408. I still think there may be actual vertical words put into the 408 and 340 solutions, but they are vertical or diagonal, straight, correct spelling, no anagrams, no shifties, no twisties. I still look at some of these ideas, but within those strict parameters. Even in those strict parameters, it is very hard to say if these were intentionally put there by Zodiac or are just white noise you get from any grid. Let me know if you want to see my 408 grid, if you do i will post it here


I used to spend a LOT of time on possible wide anagram solutions, but glurk and doranchak showed me the hundreds of possible wide anagrams that can be created, and I determined that further pursuit of wide anagrams was wasting my time and hurting the credibility of my other fact based research. To each his own. By wide anagrams I mean were the letters are very scrambled. So LASTB is an example of a tight anagram - shift one letter and you have a word. I disagree with glurk in that I think tight anagrams may have been used by Z. But TABLS is a wide anagram. TAMLHBSF is an even wider anagram. I now reject wide anagrams, thanks to thoughtful criticisms and analysis of them by people like glurk and doranchak. What you are doing combines omnidirectional word finds with wide anagrams.

Glurk Puzzle New Small.jpg

So I offer this criticism as a friendly way to say just think about it. Ultimately if you feel it is valid, you will pursue it. I can tell you my experience that by listening to the criticisms about wide anagrams, it made my work much sharper, more focused and better. The thoughtful criticisms prevented me from wasting time going down blind alleys. Also, Penn was not Zodiac! Too tall and he had long hair and a beard in the 68-69 time period. No evidence shows he was Zodiac. At the time of the Bates murder he was in the Army in Oklahoma. But we could discuss that on the Penn section in our suspects section.

Gareth Penn.jpg

I did take Glurk's challenge seriously. I approached it the same way I did all the other things I posted. I only found one "full name" Penn. I did not count "pen" as Penn.And I did not skip blocks to make words. I only used full words Penn and Gareth.

For Glurk to suggest I search for for zodiac words, to me was "very politely condescending". Yes, I do realize he could have been a bit TOUGHER and HARSHER with his comment to me. This is very much appreciated by me---that he was not. As I stated before. ..I am not an idiot. I was already aware that zodiac words can appear in many texts and subjects.So his challenge was a littlt redundant to me.

Thing things I am posting are things I am finding to be a curiosity. My process may be misleading. The things I am posting are not factual and they will not lead to the arrest of the Zodiac. I am not naive---just curious. I do not consider it a waste of time to show some of obvious things I find.I use this process to rule things out, too. But...yes...I do post them.

It is curious to me that in "my image" Penn's name is intertwined with the "This is the Zodiac" statement. It is just interesting to....me.

I was being flippant when stating that Gareth Penn was the Zodiac..inside and out. I do apapologize for this and it was careless of me. Sometimes my sense of humor can be quite dry and and I may say something that sometimes people will take seriously. This is something I need to be careful of.

I do not have a real person of interest. I do attempt to search for all tge main POI's...etc in all that I do but sometimes a particular name does stand out so I work with it. Doing this, I can rule things out or in but it is just my observations. Nothing more. At this stage I am just trying to keep it simple.

I can be a bit prickly at times but foremost I am very open minded and not set in my ways.

I may still keep on the path I have been posting along and maybe "to some" it is not showing facts------but hmmmmmm just "possibilities and things I observe. And I do realize this may be a lost cause but I still need to work through it......so that I can move on to other ideas.

Ak Wilks---I would love to see your grids, you can post them here. I respect your work on Ted K. Some of the handwriting samples are so close. This is something else I want to explore. Thank You for taking the time to write your lenthy post, I do appreciate the time it takes "out of our busy days" to do so.

If anyone wants to give me "biginners" information on web sites and books on ciphering, please do so. I have enjoyed the "Cipher Exchange". I would would love a class on this topic or a thread here that shows the basics on how to approach finding a solution. I too would like to participate in the cipher games Jarlve and Glurk post but I am limited by my lack of knowledge as how to begin.

A man with long hair and weight can disguise himself to appear different.Even I with long hair managed to do this at Halloween with great results.

Thank You Everyone!

bmichelle

I am posting this with my phone so excuse mistakes, it is not easy typing on this little keypad.

[AK Wilks]

Bmichelle - Thanks for your comments. I do appreciate experimentation. It is good to experiment and try new things. But I have found that sometimes intelligent criticism can be very helpful. I told you my experience. Sometimes we all have to forge our own path and learn from our mistakes. I can only repeat that while I was angry at the time, the criticisms of glurk and doranchak about wide anagram use were very helpful to me. I saw that with the hundreds of possibilities created by wide anagram use, there was no way to tell which were intended and which were chance. When I dropped wide anagram use, my work got sharper. The FBI and police started responding to my factual research in the Tylenol, Zodiac and EAR/ONS cases. Police and the FBI actually did some things based on my research, when before they just ignored it.

I think with omnidirectional twisty word finds and wide anagrams, too many words are created, so we cannot know which were intended and which were noise. I have seen some of your other work, and it is interesting. My advice would be to seriously look at what glurk, doranchak and I are saying. But that is up to you. Did you see the many examples doranchak posted?

Doranchak could recommend some good introductory books on codes. You might also check out his website http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com . He has a lot of good material on Z codes and other codes. Also check out his webtoy, which allows you to try to solve the Zodiac 340.

This is the 408 which you asked to see. Done on the webtoy. Credit goes to Doug Oswell and Kite for working on this, which I picked up on and expanded. It is based on vertical word finds in the 408 solution. At one time I was pretty sure we had discovered something important. Now I am not so sure. Notice that I do not use omnidirectional twisties. Also I only use correct spelling and no anagrams. Also a key series of words occur in the same part of the code, and several have a nautical theme. WAVE, TIDE, BELL, HEAL, EARN, ROCKS are all key parts of a nautical story involving stormy seas, unrequited love and suicide by Frederick Marryat that we have reason to think Ted K had read and liked. Oswell made that very intriguing discovery. And TED happens in the part about being REBORN. Of course Z said he would be reborn and Ted talked about bursting from the ashes like a Phoenix, a type of rebirth. Kite made that interesting discovery.

Now I still kick around some work on this over at unazod, because it is interesting and fun to explore. To a degree. But I mostly put work on this on the backburner. Glurk and doranchak showed me how, even using my stricter rules of vertical only, no anagrams, ANY grid creates numerous words. It just doesn't hold up as a likely method, because there is no good way to determine intended words from accidental words. I realized it was not the most profitable use of my time. I still think it is interesting, but these results don't rise to the level of proof. These things are interesting and fun to explore. But I mostly put them on the back burner. They become a maze in which you can literally spend months or even years of your life getting lost in. And in the end, you do not have anything that the FBI, police, newspapers, academics, veteran amateur code breakers or the larger Zodiac research community will respect, because there are just way too many variables.

So you can consider what we are saying or ignore it. Your time is your own. I can only say that for me, the omnidirectional word finds and wide anagrams are a puzzle with no one clear solution, and I am glad that I have mostly moved on to other things, and when I do look at them, I only consider verticals with no twists and no wide anagrams. Even with those important limits and restrictions, there is still too much white noise created to have it ever be reliable evidence.

In other words, have fun, explore, but IMO don't spend too much time on it, when there are other more solid areas too explore.

NEW Zodiac 408 Word Finds Ted Reborn CROPPED.jpg