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glurk wrote:I've never seen any of this insurmountable evidence. In fact, I don't think I've even seen any convincing evidence. Just IMO, of course. We can agree to disagree.

-glurk

You're right, of course. There's nothing which could be called evidence in any meaningful sense. And it's best to keep this in mind.

The circumstances which connect KQ to the Z case are factual, though - they aren't dreamed up. The question is whether they actually mean anything. Most coincidences in this world are, in fact, coincidences and nothing more.

Norse wrote:I mentioned KQ's property in the Napa area above. It seems that he had a ranch not too far from Lake Berryessa. An idea which has been touched on before is that Z may have made a pit stop at this ranch on his way from LB to the car wash where he phoned the police: Drives to the ranch, cleans up/changes clothes, switches cars, drives to Napa and makes the call. According to some the timeline for LB suggests that it took Z unnaturally long to get from the attack site to the phone booth. A pit stop would account for this discrepancy.

Disclaimer: Lots of people owned property in the area. And the timeline for LB isn't written in stone. We know when Z made the call but we don't know precisely when he attacked CS/BH. We might speculate, though, that IF the killer was KQ it seems plausible that his strategy would have involved the ranch in one way or another.

Thanks for reiterating that, Norse. I had almost forgotten that he owned real estate near yet another Z crime scene. Conventional widom would say that a serial killer wouldn't kill that close to home, but that goes out the window with KQ. Mt. Diablo was a very important landmark to him too, as events for the MG Car Club took place there.

Norse, in regards to your comment about KQ willingly submitting his DNA, I have to abmit, that is the hardest part to reconcile -not the fact it didn't match, but that he was confident enough to provide it. That is a lot of the reason why I can only go as far as to surmise he was involved in the murders, but stopping short at accusing him of them.

Norse wrote:

glurk wrote:I've never seen any of this insurmountable evidence. In fact, I don't think I've even seen any convincing evidence. Just IMO, of course. We can agree to disagree.

-glurk

You're right, of course. There's nothing which could be called evidence in any meaningful sense. And it's best to keep this in mind.

The circumstances which connect KQ to the Z case are factual, though - they aren't dreamed up. The question is whether they actually mean anything. Most coincidences in this world are, in fact, coincidences and nothing more.

I'm not going to get into an argument over semantics, but in a general, if not in a purely legal sense, what I've been stating is indeed evidence. I appreciate that a few, even a handful, of coincidences are just that, coincidences; however I've listed off about 20 facts that connect KQ to Z. Granted, some of these facts are weaker than others, but in a court of law I could see everything I've mentioned being admissible to corroborate KQ's involvement. Unfortunately there's no smoking gun, and a few big facts that could be argued in his defense.

Joe:

I guess we can define evidence in different ways. One way of looking at it would be to determine which circumstances might be deemed relevant in a hypothetical trial: He can be placed a stone's throw from the Stine scene minutes after the murder. This looks very relevant. The fact that certain Z dates correspond to dates that were significant to KQ, or that he owned a building with a symbol on it which resembles a certain other symbol, or that he was in the habit of signing cars with a felt pen...and so forth, would probably be less relevant. If one presupposes that KQ is Z, then all this carries weight. If one doesn't, it looks tenuous.

Anyway, none of it matters without the proverbial smoking gun - that much is clear.

As for DNA, well...it's a con, there's no doubt about that. There's reason to believe that KQ knew about saliva testing back in the late 60s/early 70s. And there's reason to believe that Z knew about this too - or at least that he for some reason or other refrained from licking his stamps/envelopes. One story I've read goes like this: NONE of the Z letters showed any traces of saliva. And this was used as a means to identify fakes. The infamous '78 letter had plenty of saliva on it - as had one other, earlier letter which is generally accepted as genuine (my guess would be this is the Exorcist letter, but that's speculation on my part).* If KQ was Z and he KNEW that he had never licked any stamps or envelopes, used gloves and so forth - would he be confident enough to submit a DNA sample? Seems a bit risky all things considered. A tiny hair would be enough.

Another possibility - and this as a matter of PURE speculation - is that KQ somehow knew that the DNA held by LE was no good. Others have entertained the same idea over the years. Still, the simplest explanation is that KQ was confident for the obvious reason that he wasn't Z.

Lastly, KQ's ranch: This was a stud farm in the Napa valley. Should be possible to pinpoint its location but it can't have been too far from LB. Question is whether it would have been a natural place to swing by en route from the attack site to the car wash.

* I don't know this to be true - it's never been confirmed as such, as far as I know. I believe Mike Rodelli talked to a crime lab technician at one point - and that this man provided him (MR) with the information. The lab guy didn't remember which of the "confirmed" letters had saliva on it, but stated that it was just ONE plus the '78 letter.

That's an interesting thought Norse, and you are most likely correct... but I don't know how much you can really read into it.

Z could very well have known that he didn't lick the envelope, but he couldn't have known if he left behind some physical evidence that he would never have even thought about like touch DNA. If someone was told by police that they had a DNA sample, if they were actually the killer and had contact with the evidence, I would say that they would most likely believe it to be true.

On the other hand, for X it certainly seems keeping with his character, and the PA profile put for Z, that he might volunteer information about himself, no matter how incriminating it might be because he liked "the thrill" and if he was the 30+ year uncaught killer, didn't really believe he could ever get caught.

Norse wrote:Joe:

I guess we can define evidence in different ways. One way of looking at it would be to determine which circumstances might be deemed relevant in a hypothetical trial: He can be placed a stone's throw from the Stine scene minutes after the murder. This looks very relevant. The fact that certain Z dates correspond to dates that were significant to KQ, or that he owned a building with a symbol on it which resembles a certain other symbol, or that he was in the habit of signing cars with a felt pen...and so forth, would probably be less relevant. If one presupposes that KQ is Z, then all this carries weight. If one doesn't, it looks tenuous.

Anyway, none of it matters without the proverbial smoking gun - that much is clear.

As for DNA, well...it's a con, there's no doubt about that. There's reason to believe that KQ knew about saliva testing back in the late 60s/early 70s. And there's reason to believe that Z knew about this too - or at least that he for some reason or other refrained from licking his stamps/envelopes. One story I've read goes like this: NONE of the Z letters showed any traces of saliva. And this was used as a means to identify fakes. The infamous '78 letter had plenty of saliva on it - as had one other, earlier letter which is generally accepted as genuine (my guess would be this is the Exorcist letter, but that's speculation on my part).* If KQ was Z and he KNEW that he had never licked any stamps or envelopes, used gloves and so forth - would he be confident enough to submit a DNA sample? Seems a bit risky all things considered. A tiny hair would be enough.

Another possibility - and this as a matter of PURE speculation - is that KQ somehow knew that the DNA held by LE was no good. Others have entertained the same idea over the years. Still, the simplest explanation is that KQ was confident for the obvious reason that he wasn't Z.

Lastly, KQ's ranch: This was a stud farm in the Napa valley. Should be possible to pinpoint its location but it can't have been too far from LB. Question is whether it would have been a natural place to swing by en route from the attack site to the car wash.

* I don't know this to be true - it's never been confirmed as such, as far as I know. I believe Mike Rodelli talked to a crime lab technician at one point - and that this man provided him (MR) with the information. The lab guy didn't remember which of the "confirmed" letters had saliva on it, but stated that it was just ONE plus the '78 letter.

Thanks, I didn't know that about the 78 letter. Still, I hope that saliva was matched against suspects all the same. And yes, I agree that some of these tidbits, that he autographed his cars with a felt pen, for example, on their own do not stand up. I would have dropped KQ long ago if it were for a few of the more tenuous facts. To be honest, I had dropped KQ years ago as a suspect, but a couple of things got me wondering about him recently. Reading that letter KQ sent to The Chronicle was a big one, that and learning how unreliable the DNA on Z is.

It might be a shock to some of you who read my posts, but I'm an editor. The one thing I think I have become good at over the years is discerning who wrote what, not only based on style and diction, but what a particular writer's preoccupations are, and I see a lot of similarities between the letter KQ wrote The Chronicle and Z's.

Anyway, all I was trying to say was that while much of the evidence against KQ is tenuous on it's own, there are too many coincidences.

if that foreign sports car observed on LHR can ever be proven to be an Allard it would point in some sense to X...at that time the team Z theory would have to be looked at as i do not think X did the murders but he may have been otherwise involved in the game

If we're talking about the same sports car I think it's known who it belonged to (some guy was doing a test drive in his girlfriend's car - I think it's mentioned either in the LHR report or in the FBI material), but not what make and model it was.

I personally can't see KQ as Z trolling for victims in an easily recognizable car. But, yes, in a Team Z setting of some kind I suppose it's possibly a clew. It would certainly be an interesting zynchronicity if the car turned out to be one of KQ's imports.

Joe: I get a certain "vibe" from that letter myself. Can't put my finger on it exactly, but it's something. Then again I find it hard to judge it objectively - it's a bit like being told that a man in an old photo was suspected of being Jack The Ripper, it gets creepy even though he may have been the nicest guy in the world and you know that very well, rationally.

Norse wrote:Joe: I get a certain "vibe" from that letter myself. Can't put my finger on it exactly, but it's something. Then again I find it hard to judge it objectively - it's a bit like being told that a man in an old photo was suspected of being Jack The Ripper, it gets creepy even though he may have been the nicest guy in the world and you know that very well, rationally.

Yes, I see your point. I'm sure if I looked at that photo, I'd project all kinds of evil that wasnt there. On the other hand, I have little doubt that if I were sifting through all those Chronicle letters, that particular one would stand out.

joedetective wrote:

Norse wrote:I mentioned KQ's property in the Napa area above. It seems that he had a ranch not too far from Lake Berryessa. An idea which has been touched on before is that Z may have made a pit stop at this ranch on his way from LB to the car wash where he phoned the police: Drives to the ranch, cleans up/changes clothes, switches cars, drives to Napa and makes the call. According to some the timeline for LB suggests that it took Z unnaturally long to get from the attack site to the phone booth. A pit stop would account for this discrepancy.

Disclaimer: Lots of people owned property in the area. And the timeline for LB isn't written in stone. We know when Z made the call but we don't know precisely when he attacked CS/BH. We might speculate, though, that IF the killer was KQ it seems plausible that his strategy would have involved the ranch in one way or another.

Thanks for reiterating that, Norse. I had almost forgotten that he owned real estate near yet another Z crime scene. Conventional widom would say that a serial killer wouldn't kill that close to home, but that goes out the window with KQ. Mt. Diablo was a very important landmark to him too, as events for the MG Car Club took place there.

Norse, in regards to your comment about KQ willingly submitting his DNA, I have to abmit, that is the hardest part to reconcile -not the fact it didn't match, but that he was confident enough to provide it. That is a lot of the reason why I can only go as far as to surmise he was involved in the murders, but stopping short at accusing him of them.

That isn't always true, I was reading about the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker, many of the police believed he was familiar with where he struck. In fact some of the cops believe he could have lived as close as a block away from some of his victims. So having real estate close to the scene pf the crime isn't that far fetched. It's an extremely risky proposition, but sociopaths/psychopaths aren't that hesitant to take dumb and self destructive risks.