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Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:36 pm
by snooter
at this point I can see the point of if X=Z you almost have to believe in multiple Z theory..still X interests me..

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:39 am
by Norse
KQ as the "Grand Chingon"?

Is there anything to this 4pi business? Sounds very flimsy to me, hardly based on rock solid facts. But the leader of this cult was supposedly a "wealthy California businessman of middle years".

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:44 pm
by joedetective
Another pro is Z's use of the phrase "road races." KQ would be more than familiar with this term seeing as how he took part in them, including, if I'm not mistaken, the Riverside road races.

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:56 am
by themysterymachine
joedetective wrote:I've been compiling a rundown in my head of all the circumstantial evidence againt KQ for themysterymachine and I decided I might as well just start a thread. For the sake of fairness I also thought I should be both prosecutor and defense. I hope Mike Rodelli can add more because I'm sure I am going to miss a few things or get something f'ed up. Also, I should acknowledge Mike for most, if not all, of this information.

Pros:

1. KQ's letter to the editor published in The Chronicle before Z's campaign began. Out of all the letters Mike and his buddy went through only one stood out as Z-like. When I read that letter I couldn't believe how much it resembled Z's ---- especially the Red Phanthom and Badlands letters.

2. Then in 2006 Mike discovers that not only does KQ live a few blocks from the Stine crime scene, he was outside, walking his dog, in close proximity, just after the police arrived. Anyone else see the astronomical odds of this? Many argue that that's a reason to think he wasn't Z, because he was so close to home, but that brings me to number 3.

3. His autobiography is story after story of Kjell putting himself in harms way for no reason other than the thrill of it. He also comes across as boastful and egomaniacal. Sure he is a war hero, but other than that he was a glorified car salesman.

4. He is a WW2 vet. He has a military background. He would be familiar with arms.

5. His horse's name was Skystalker.

6. He claimed to have been abducted, or have seen ufos. Can't remember which one.

7. He sold cars. Z had a thing about cars.. there's the Volkswagen thing that comes up in 2 crime scenes. Most importantly, KQ used to sign his cars with a black felt pen. Z signed the door of Hartnell's car, a car KQ sold.

8. KQ's headquarters had the crosshair symbol in front of it.

9. The crosshair symbol could be the celtic cross, or Odin's cross. Oden is a Norse god. KQ was Norwegian.

10. Z fits the profile of a power assertive killer. KQ was power- assertive. Also, He had the means, the time and money, to pull it off with little effort.

11. He used Monarch sized paper

12. He resembles the Stine killer sketch. Face is dead ringer.

13. The sla letter. Again, KQ was Norwegian.

That's all I can think of for now. I will do cons in the next post. Sorry for it being so sketchy.

SOrry Joe, I am just now seeing this! Thank you for starting this thread!
SO far the most compelling bit, honestly, is the fact that he was a salesman- and a good one. Recently I read about a study that showed that of all the professions, sales and banking have the most sociopaths. -
BUT- the whole tone of Z's letters does not bespeak a man who is successful, at all. I always think of BTK's letters. BTK never really boasted the way Z did. He would get all goofy and poetic and terribly creepy and even threatening, but there wasn't that incessant "needling the blue pigs" number that Z would do. Now, Rader was a successful guy. He had a wife, a family, was a deacon, vp of his church, well respected. He didn't have to prove anything to anyone. He got his kicks somewhere else, Z got his kicks a whole different place, but still both were motivated to reach out to the media- but they had very different messages. I think its makes complete sense- and the literature bears it out- that Z in real life was probably a total loser. KQ seems more like the type if, he were a killer, to do something in secret. Z wanted to be KNOWN.
But I am still reading all these threads- just my take on it so far. But it has to make sense on a psychological level for me. Its the main reason why, despite my still liking ALA as a suspect, I don't feel entirely there with it. Because he was a molester and I just don't think a guy like that would kill the way Z did. Things have to be of a piece.

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:35 am
by joedetective
No worries, MM, hope you keep reading. I have problems with KQ too, but the fact that he was rich and successful isn't oone of them. As Mike Rodelli has pointed out, your thinking that Z was "a loser" is old-school profiling. Nowadays Z would be considered power-assertive, which means, a person who already has lots of power, who gets off on his power so much that he takes it beyond the business world, to get his kicks and thrills in darker, more disturbing ways. In other words, he's power-mad. I don't put a whole lot of stock in criminal profilers, but a lot of that fits for me in regards to Z.

I've let go of most of the POIs on here to some degree, but I can't seem to shake KQ. On the other hand, the evidence doesn't seem to point to him being the actual killer, but there's insurmountable evidence that points to his involvement.

I am still keeping an open mind, and looking into other suspects and scenarios. A part of me thinks it is probably a painter or janitor, or maybe college dropout, especially when I focus on Cheri Jo Bates.

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:53 am
by glurk
joedetective wrote:I've let go of most of the POIs on here to some degree, but I can't seem to shake KQ. On the other hand, the evidence doesn't seem to point to him being the actual killer, but there's insurmountable evidence that points to his involvement.

I've never seen any of this insurmountable evidence. In fact, I don't think I've even seen any convincing evidence. Just IMO, of course. We can agree to disagree.

-glurk

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:49 pm
by Coffee Time
joedetective wrote:Nowadays Z would be considered power-assertive, which means, a person who already has lots of power, who gets off on his power so much that he takes it beyond the business world, to get his kicks and thrills in darker, more disturbing ways.


That doesn't have to apply to only wealthy businessmen -- the notion that Zodiac might be a cop has been kicking around forever.

Also, KQ isn't the only businessman to come under suspicion. According to an article from the 5/4/1981 SF Chronicle (original article found here: http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=190 ), there was such a compelling circumstantial case against a bank executive that SFPD had to investigate him:

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:40 am
by ophion1031
Rich and successful could also mean police protection. This was a time where there were a lot of crooked cops in S.F. I still think Qvale hid Zodiac at his house after the murder, but I'm still not sure what the motive could be for this particular murder.

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:53 pm
by joedetective
glurk wrote:
joedetective wrote:I've let go of most of the POIs on here to some degree, but I can't seem to shake KQ. On the other hand, the evidence doesn't seem to point to him being the actual killer, but there's insurmountable evidence that points to his involvement.

I've never seen any of this insurmountable evidence. In fact, I don't think I've even seen any convincing evidence. Just IMO, of course. We can agree to disagree.

-glurk


I guess different things about this case stand out to us. Z's preoccupation with cars stands out to me to the point where I could easily see Z having an occupation like a car salesman. I could see him being a mechanic too. Even when you take Bates and Johns into account, cars play a part in it.

Re: X=Z? Pros and Cons

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:45 am
by Norse
I mentioned KQ's property in the Napa area above. It seems that he had a ranch not too far from Lake Berryessa. An idea which has been touched on before is that Z may have made a pit stop at this ranch on his way from LB to the car wash where he phoned the police: Drives to the ranch, cleans up/changes clothes, switches cars, drives to Napa and makes the call. According to some the timeline for LB suggests that it took Z unnaturally long to get from the attack site to the phone booth. A pit stop would account for this discrepancy.

Disclaimer: Lots of people owned property in the area. And the timeline for LB isn't written in stone. We know when Z made the call but we don't know precisely when he attacked CS/BH. We might speculate, though, that IF the killer was KQ it seems plausible that his strategy would have involved the ranch in one way or another.