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Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:16 pm
by morf13
Mike, a question for you, since your suspect is now dead, do you plan to contact the FBI to see if they will release any files they have on him?

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:56 pm
by Welsh Chappie
mike_r wrote:Well, they had a very different response to my request. I am confident that you will find that it is not X. The date box is all wrong. Should have been quite short.

Mike


Mike, when you say "The FBI said it would not do "research" and un-redact the name of any individual on a form", was this a response they gave you to a FOIA request, or did you contact them another way? If it was a FOIA request, what specifically did you ask for?

And I am not saying I know for sure it is Qvale named in that Doc. But, if he is one of the redacted names then now he has passed away they will release his Name if it appears in the Document.

And yes, the DOB box is extremely long which is unusual, but the date box length isn't really what I was looking for in terms of what fits, it's the last line where it says an eight year old witness names someone as possibly being the man he saw. Whoever's DOB that is it's way too long, Qvale or any other suspects. Here's what I mean below, I've added Qvale in to show how QVALE fits...

FBI FOIA Doc Qvale added.png

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:22 am
by mike_r
Hi-

Sure his name can fit. So can others. The date box appears wrong to me but who knows? I'd never imply that it is his name on the form until someone proves it to me. That is not how I do research.

I sent the obit and asked them if that was the name on the form would they unredact it. They said something to the effect that that constitutes "research" and they refused to do so.

They said, "The FOIA does not require federal agencies to answer inquiries, create records, conduct research or draw conclusions concerning queried data. Rather the FOIA requires agencies to provide access to reasonably described, nonexempt records. The questions posed in this reference are not FOIA requests because they do not comply with FOIA and its regulations."

I asked if "the name of the deceased resident of SF appears in the attached redacted FBI document..."

Mike

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:20 pm
by morf13
I suggest you word a FOIA request to the FBI as follows:

I am requesting any files or reports that are releasable under FOIA guidelines for Qvale....A deceased individual-proof of death as follows(obituary,deacth cert,etc,provide date of death,ss#,etc as much as you can). I am specifically interested in any FBI fles connected to Qvale n regards to the FBI's Zodiac Killer investigation.



When it comes to the FBI requests,its all about exact details,specific inquiry,and also include a date range,say 1968-1980,etc,etc


I have been able to get various levels of success. Also,I am sure you already have this,but request his military files via FOIA military request

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:34 pm
by Welsh Chappie
morf13 wrote:I suggest you word a FOIA request to the FBI as follows:

I am requesting any files or reports that are releasable under FOIA guidelines for Qvale....A deceased individual-proof of death as follows(obituary,deacth cert,etc,provide date of death,ss#,etc as much as you can). I am specifically interested in any FBI fles connected to Qvale n regards to the FBI's Zodiac Killer investigation.



When it comes to the FBI requests,its all about exact details,specific inquiry,and also include a date range,say 1968-1980,etc,etc


I have been able to get various levels of success. Also,I am sure you already have this,but request his military files via FOIA military request


Could do it that way Morf, but if it isn't Qvale in that Doc, or any other Doc's relating to Zodiac, then they'll reply "Our main file system did not find any files responsive to your request" or words to that effect. I havn't asked for Qvale specifically, I'm asking for any and all names that are redacted in Document A to be released under the FOIA act if the privacy laws are no longer applicable." That way, whether it is Qvale or anyone else that is deceased, they will release whatever that persons name is/was.

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:10 pm
by mike_r
Hi-

" I havn't asked for Qvale specifically, I'm asking for any and all names that are redacted in Document A to be released under the FOIA act if the privacy laws are no longer applicable." That way, whether it is Qvale or anyone else that is deceased, they will release whatever that persons name is/was."

Well, this will test their statement about "not doing research." They will have to look at the name and then determine if the info can be released under FOIA. Sounds like the type of work they refuse to do but we'll see how they respond.

I wonder if the FBI had a huge file on Dennis Rader as BTK before that case was solved.

Mike

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:02 am
by entropy
Does the FBI ever "unredact" information at the public's request? Dunno but I think morf's suggestion is a good one. It might seem like a simple request but there is probably a bureaucratic process involved. It would certainly be interesting for you to find out what they have on Qvale.

To my knowledge, Rader never made the FBI's or anyone else's radar until he was dumb enough to mail in a floppy disk. I know they attempted to match various databases of Wichita State students and other suspected connections but I don't think anyone ever suspected him before he practically indicted himself.

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:11 am
by morf13
The FBI will give you information about a deceased person if they do in fact have it. It happened with Rick Marshall,or rather, they wrote me stating that they had a file on him and it had been destroyed after he was cleared of the Z crime, or something along those lines

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:41 pm
by Welsh Chappie
mike_r wrote:Hi-

" I havn't asked for Qvale specifically, I'm asking for any and all names that are redacted in Document A to be released under the FOIA act if the privacy laws are no longer applicable." That way, whether it is Qvale or anyone else that is deceased, they will release whatever that persons name is/was."

Well, this will test their statement about "not doing research." They will have to look at the name and then determine if the info can be released under FOIA. Sounds like the type of work they refuse to do but we'll see how they respond.

I wonder if the FBI had a huge file on Dennis Rader as BTK before that case was solved.

Mike


Mike I've already tested it with my last FOIA request and they sent me a copy of the document with a suspect name unredacted so there is no question whether they will or will not do it because they already have.

Re: Mr. X passes away

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:19 pm
by Norse
I have a special interest in Mr X, hailing from his neck of the woods. I'm not convinced at all that he was the Zodiac, be it said, but I've read Mike Rodelli's posts on several forums with great interest - he strikes me as an honest researcher and I think he's done a great job, whether or not he has actually succeeded in identifying the Zodiac.

Some time ago I messed around a little with a screenshot - and came up with this. It's nothing revolutionary - it was mainly for my own benefit, trying to get a clearer picture of what might have transpired that night:

Image

The red line marks Z's route from the crime scene to 3712 Jackson St (the red dot), where Fouke observed him. The green line marks Fouke's route, driving west on Jackson, turning south on Cherry St, where he met up with Pelissetti. The blue line marks the route Fouke assumed Z took, turning north on Maple, disappearing into the park area. Finally, the pink line marks a possible route from 3712 to 3636 Jackson St, where Mr X resided.

Now, the trouble here is the timeline, which nobody has been able to establish fully and finally. Who did what and in what order?

According to some sources Pelissetti claims that he encountered the infamous "dog walker" BEFORE he met up with Fouke, which makes no sense whatsoever to me, unless Fouke arrived remarkably late. Pelissetti arrived on the scene, met the kids, ushered them back into the house, talked to them, went back outside, checked on Stine, concluded he was dead, then called it in, reporting that a murder had taken place. In the meantime Z proceeded up Cherry St, headed east on Jackson and ran into Fouke outside No 3712. He pretended to go up the stairs to the entrance. Fouke passed him and proceeded to the crime scene.

Right, to me it seems obvious that Z could have - now - made it to 3636 Jackson with little difficulty. He could have even waited on the stairs a little while, making sure Fouke was out of sight, before proceeding. If nobody was around he could - for the sake of argument - have bolted down the street to No 3636 once Fouke was out of the way.

So, what I am saying? Well, it seems possible to me that Z could have made it to 3636, gone inside, changed his clothes, fetched his dog, and been outside at the time when Pelissetti appeared and accosted his "dog walker". Which is what Rodelli suggests he did. I'm not saying I agree - I'm not convinced at all - but I'm saying that If the timeline here is about right (Pelissetti arrives, deals with the kids, checks on Stine, calls it in, meets Fouke, then goes out searching, eventually meeting this dog walker somewhere near 3636 Jackson St) I can't see why such a scenario shouldn't be possible. Is it likely, all things said and done? Now, that is another question altogether.

EDIT Just to clarify something: I can't make sense of Pelissetti's account, as it appears here:

Went over to the cab, I would see Mr. Paul Stein, who was slumped over the front seat with his head into the well on the passenger side in the front. There was blood all over the cab, on him, and I was 99.9% certain he was dead. And it was at that point that I retook the description of the suspect. And that's when I was told it was a white male. I couldn't get to the radio fast enough at that point to let everybody else know. The kids had told me that whoever had done this crime left the cab, went out the door, seemed to be wiping the cab down, reaching into the cab and then ambling or walking down Cherry Street in a northerly direction, kind of towards the Presidio. I walked that way myself, I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn't get my head blown off. Got down to the corner of Jackson Street, had to make a choice. I was on the east side of the street, so I turned right to the east, went up in that direction. I couldn't see anybody in either direction, nor could I see anybody scaling a wall into the Presidio. I got all the way down to the next corner which was Maple. Decision number two, which way to go? Looked to the left, toward the Presidio, saw absolutely nothing. It was much darker there. I figured the chance of finding somebody was almost nil. I turned to the right and I saw a man walking his dog. He was somewhat older than the description I had, a whole lot thinner, and he had absolutely no blood on his clothes. I asked that gentleman if he saw anybody walking in the area and he told me, "No."


All this happens, one must assume, before this:

At that point, Officer Donald Fouke, who was accompanied by what I believe was a rookie officer, Eric Zelms, at the time, pulled up very quickly in their police car, called out to me, did I see anybody? Did I know anything about where the suspect could be? I told him, "No."


Now THAT happened on Cherry St according to Fouke (and nothing else makes sense). So, Pelissetti - after having dealt with the kids, talked to them, checked out Stine, etc. - makes his way up Cherry St, cautiously (one may add, he didn't run after the suspect, he followed procedure and made sure he wasn't ambushed), turns east and proceeds down Jackson St (all of this on foot, naturally, still cautiously) to Maple St - and at some point further down the street he meets the dog walker*. He must then, necessarily, make his way back to Cherry St, where he meets up with Fouke.

There is something about this sequence which doesn't make sense. Unless I'm just reading all this the wrong way - and the time which passes between a) Pelissetti's arrival at the scene and b) Fouke's arrival at the scene is much longer than I imagine. But if the latter is the case, where does this leave Z and his encounter with Fouke? I can't quite get my head around this one.

* Exactly where this meeting takes place is uncertain. There are several versions of this, from Pelissetti's own mouth. According to one version the dog walker wasn't on the street, but in his own driveway. Pelissetti also mentions, in one version at least, that he went back to speak further with the dog walker after he accosted him the first time. But it's unclear when this happened, i.e. how much time passed between the first and the second conversation (and for that matter from where Pelissetti went back to speak further with the man).