, Subject: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 3:26 am
With the Gyke news the other day I had posted that JP worked for the Albany Times Union, I found it strange that out of all the papers in the US they should receive a letter purporting to be from the Zodiac. There are several pages about it starting File 4, page 119 of the FBI files. There could be another possible link.
Gaul and Sharp were killed on November 21st 1969, the Albany Times Union staffers provided the LA police with details to assist in the identification of Gaul. In 73 the letter was sent. The interesting thing about the letter was that it included a cipher which read "(First part blanked out)Albany Medical Center, This only the beginning." We know that a letter was found amongst items belonging to Gaul supposedly coming from the Zodiac killer. Here is a map of the Albany Medical Centre and Stratton VA Medical Centre.
The interesting part is that the street that runs along the top Myrtle Avenue is where Doreen Gaul and her family lived, http://img94.imageshack.us/i/snapshot20 ... 02737.png/ the red A marks their house. Could Doreen really have known her killer and did she meet him as he visited the Medical Centre. Why the Zodiac letter left in her room and four years later the note to the Albany Times mentioning the Medical Centre within spitting distance of her house.
File 4,page 122 states that the FBI could not eliminate the possibility that the person that had written the Times Union note was the same as the person who had written the Zodiac letters.
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 7:38 am
I have always been interested in the GAUL/SHARP case. I also have been surprised that the GYKE supporters never looked more at this case.
The letter in her room was typed- all caps, like the Confession letter.
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 7:40 am
morf13 wrote:I have always been interested in the GAUL/SHARP case. I also have been surprised that the GYKE supporters never looked more at this case.
The letter in her room was typed- all caps, like the Confession letter.
By the way, and maybe I am wrong, but didnt Zodiac say something to Hartnell at Berryessa that the "time is getting short" ?
, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 10:48 am
Shall need to look up Hartnells interview, also Doreen had been involved with some kind of local free press in Albany before moving to LA. I would love to know what the blacked out part is just before Albany Medical Centre, it could be a name. Why did she move to LA?, did someone recommend it?, then there is the Scientologists and the manner of her and James Sharps death (there was also another unknown person who died with them).
Been looking up Scientology all day, John Mcmasters a major scientologist and the first 'clear' wrote a letter to Hubbard appalled at what was happening within Scientology he announced that he was leaving Hubbard's ships to spread Scientology in Africa, because of his "horror at what such people on the Sea Org could do to mankind."
Quote from Clambake :He criticized Hubbard and Scientology for their "savage and vicious ethics" and seemed particularly perturbed over the death of the three Los Angeles teen-agers. Their deaths may have partially precipitated McMasters' decision to dissociate himself from certain aspects of Scientology. "Somehow we are violating our basic ethics for such things to happen to us," he wrote. "These last two ghastly murders of our students, one of whom is a clear, need never have happened if we hadn't been mocking up [making] enemies so solidly."
The Sea Org (One of Hubbards ships) that Hubbard was domiciled on had originally been called The Royal Scotsman but was changed in August 1968 to 'Apollo'.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 1:10 pm
morf13 wrote:morf13 wrote:I have always been interested in the GAUL/SHARP case. I also have been surprised that the GYKE supporters never looked more at this case.
The letter in her room was typed- all caps, like the Confession letter.
By the way, and maybe I am wrong, but didnt Zodiac say something to Hartnell at Berryessa that the "time is getting short" ?
Interesting observation!
And, according to the Cheri Jo Bates killer, in his "Confession" letter, he stated that this conversation had taken place:
killer: "it is about time"
CJB: "about time for what?"
killer: "it is about time for you to die"
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 1:22 pm
Someone else was thinking the same thing as me.
Here is a 2001 post on ZK.com
"Howard -- for the benefit of our readers, Pat Tan was a young traveler found dead in mid-April 1970 near the Trailside Killer's turf on Mt. Tamalpais. She had been asphixiated by a rope and an extension cord tied to a tree branch on a steep hill. The cops weren't even sure if she had been murdered, and the only evidence that she hadn't simply tied off and thrown herself down the hill was the relative complexity of the knots used. Aside from speculation that the Zodiac was a sailor (hence the knots) and the "By rope" reference in the Halloween Card, what exactly leads you to believe this might have been Z's work?
The Gaul letter reads like something out of a Columbine High diary -- "SO YOU THINK YOU CAN FOOL THE OLD KILLER HA HA I KNOW ALL YOUR MOVEMENTS AND THE TIME THEY ARE MADE..." There is a "Z" typed near the closing, but the letter is signed "THE ZODIAC KILLER," which is what the newspapers called our guy. As we all know, the true Zodiac referred to himself simply and uniformly as "The Zodiac," and used his moniker at the beginning, not the end, of his missives. The strange symbols doodled on the Gaul letter look kind of like deflated balloons falling to earth in neat rows, and do not resemble anything out of any of the cryptograms. The one possible link to Z is the phrase "TIME IS SHORT," which is similar to something uttered by Z at Lake Berryessa; here, it is followed by the advice "ENJOY LIFE WHILE YOU CAN." "
, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 4:07 pm
Yes...A time to die.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 5:22 pm
morf13 wrote:I have always been interested in the GAUL/SHARP case. I also have been surprised that the GYKE supporters never looked more at this case.
The letter in her room was typed- all caps, like the Confession letter.
In this "Zodiac note" there is written:
"HA HA"
and
"YOU ARE TO BEAUTIFUL TO LIVE AND I MUST KILL YOU"
I Googled : "you are too beautiful to live"
And found this play by Tennessee Williams : "The Milk Train Doesn’t Stop Here Anymore"
http://wwwelib.komazawa-u.ac.jp/cgi-bin ... 1_1-03.pdf
Tennessee Williams
"The Milk Train Doesn’t Stop Here Anymore"
Tennessee Williams 1911-1983 The Milk Train Doesn’t Stop Here Anymore
1964, New York, Brooks Atkinson Theatre
Quote from the play:
BLACKIE: Did he keep the sword on him at breakfast?
MRS. GOFIRTH: Yes he did and sometimes he’d draw it out of the scabbard and poke
me with it. Ho ho. Tickle me with the point of it, ho ho ho ho!
BLACKIE: You weren’t afraid he’d-accidentally?
MRS. GOFORTH: Sure, and it was exciting. I had me a little revolver. I’d draw a bead
on him sometimes and I’d say, you are too beautiful to live, and so you have to die, now,
tonight-tomorrow-
Here is info on the play and Tennessee Williams:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Milk_T ... re_Anymore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Williams
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 6:37 pm
Good Find FOREIGNER! If that note was from Z, it wouldnt surprise me that he would use a movie or play reference
Boilermaker, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 7:22 pm
the little symbols that are drawn on the ending of the typed letter - looks like there are 2 faces on the top left possibly....wondered also if the number of bubbles, nooses, or whatever they are rep the # of killings?
I know that scalps were taken and hung from belts and spears w/native americans + cowboys; some soldiers in Viet Nam cut off ears and put them on necklaces when they killed someone
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu May 27, 2010 7:44 pm
NAVOJO, native indians, "TIME" symbol:
http://www.cuentoseningles.com.ar/artic ... dwill.html
This Navajo symbol represents "Days, and Nights". It stands for "Time".
Interesting is that the person "Chris" aka "Angel Of Death" in the "Tennessee Williams: The Milk Train Doesn′t Stop Here Anymore" play: "has translated a ,,Swami" book (the book of an Indian philosopher)"
http://www.hausarbeiten.de/faecher/vorschau/100906.html
Christopher ,,Chris" Flanders, ,,Angel of Death": 34 years old (160b), has translated a ,,Swami" book (the book of an Indian philosopher) (160m, 194t), designs mobiles (160t). His vocation is to visit rich old Ladies that are about to die and help them through it (220m). He is an ambiguous character (183m).
Seagull, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Fri May 28, 2010 1:21 am
TF the Navajo are American Indians and I think that Swami book is refering to Indians from India, two different continients.
The idea of the Tennessee Williams play is very interesting. The dialogue is spot on. That's a great find.
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Fri May 28, 2010 11:03 am
Seagull wrote:TF the Navajo are American Indians and I think that Swami book is refering to Indians from India, two different continients.
The idea of the Tennessee Williams play is very interesting. The dialogue is spot on. That's a great find.
You´r absolutely right Seagull, sorry I missed that, and thanks for the correction,
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Fri May 28, 2010 11:46 am
"TOO BEAUTFUL TO LIVE" from Charles Dickens seen here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=glUpAA ... 22&f=false
"Too Beautiful to live" a Joseph Anthony Poem seen here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=z2QCAA ... 22&f=false
"SHE WAS TOO BEAUTIFUL TO LIVE" by By Reuben Percy, John Timbs, seen here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xr4RAA ... 22&f=false
And this one may be best of all. The life and adventures of Nicholas Nickleby, Part 1 By David Edgar, Charles Dickens.
Here's some character lines-
MRS KENWIGS- "Oh yes, Oh yes, they are too beautiful"
LILLYVICK- 'Too beautiful for what my dear?"
MRS KENWIGS- "Too beautiful to live"
THIS REMINDS ME OF THE CONFESSION LETTER WHERE THE WRITER SAID "I SAID IT WAS ABOUT TIME" "SHE ASKED ME ABOUT TIME FOR WHAT" "I SAID IT WAS ABOUT TIME FOR HER TO DIE"
Here is the link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9jYz2B ... 22&f=false
Visit the link above, then scroll down a little ways, and some of the terms include " I SHALL" and mentions a poem.
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:21 pm
Zodiac used monikers like, a citizen,rh,a friend,the "killer"(July 31 69),me,red phantom R.P.,Zodiac -Z,symbol -three in number to render Zodiac in symbol .
He called himself the killer in the July 31 letter/s as well as the murderer.So it no stretch to call himself the Zodiac Killer!
The symbols do not have to come from something Z already placed on paper.The Halloween 4 dot symbol is one example.It was 'new.'He was well capable of adapting and did so.
I did a post on this. Dave Peterson did feel the ten 'nooses' (there was the song Chains FYI) were Deltas as Z had done before only more distorted.
Puncuation is Z like-no periods at times,for example.
A Z is in the letter.This was rare for Zodiac to use. It was used twice to my knowledge.This would make it three.
Note it was a 'copy' not an original (as was the Confession a copy too) that LT.Deemer found. Actually,it was one of Deemer's men. He would not give us the name though as we tried to get him to do it. It was never turned in as evidence so he was concerned being a perfectionist (so many years 'just talk' was our argument!)except by us many years later along with the missing murder book of Deemer.
Note an L is used in place of an I which is Z like.Then another L out of place!
I will take Tennesse Williams as BD was brought up in TN and the writer was well known there-so it's mine LOL
Typing in all upper case as we have with Confession.The 'to" in the Gaul letter should have been a too as in the Confession,which said to instead of too. Both writers made same error.There is at least one typing error not unlike a Z. See my post on this site.
CM used the same line 'you are too beautiful to live' to Diane Lake on one occasion as found in the Family by Ed Sanders.
Two other streets I failed to mention in my post on Gaul/Sharp/LB and RS were Knox Rd.at LB)and Riverside Dr.relative to the 11/21/69 Gaul murder. In Z knife threads.
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:35 pm
I have given my views in detail on Pat Tan in my book as well as Zkiller.com.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:57 am
Found this in my never ending search of symbols to match the batwing. I don't think it's meant to be one of the symbols in this letter but it caught my attention when I saw it and made me think of it.
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:01 am
Traveler, RE: the Batman angle, one of the Lake Herman Rd 'witnesses', James Owen, has the birthday of June 14. On June 14, 1967, they replayed the Batman vs zodiac episode on tv. Maybe another zyncronicity.
""The Zodiac Crimes" is the seventy-first episode of the Batman television series. It first aired on ABC January 11, 1967 in its second season and repeated June 14, 1967"
Also, one thing I noticed, there was an episode of Batman called 'BATMAN IS RILED'.
Z used the term "rile you up" in one of his letters.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:50 am
I 'd seen that batman connection mentioned before. I must have a read into that. Not sure there's anything to it but hey, it mentions Zodiac before Zodiac does so that's interesting enough for me.
Seeing the title 'Batman is riled' actually made me smile. Not only is it quite an unusual title but there's something quaint about it - ie 'old fashioned' so I wonder if that was one of the terms LE were referring to when they talked about Z using old fashioned phrases.
BTW 'batwing' is just my name for the symbol on the halloween card and not a ref to batman but rather it was just what it first reminded me of. 2 dots for eyes, 2 for fangs and one odd wing.
Adam West has quite a monotone voice.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:53 pm
traveller1st wrote:I 'd seen that batman connection mentioned before. I must have a read into that. Not sure there's anything to it but hey, it mentions Zodiac before Zodiac does so that's interesting enough for me.
Seeing the title 'Batman is riled' actually made me smile. Not only is it quite an unusual title but there's something quaint about it - ie 'old fashioned' so I wonder if that was one of the terms LE were referring to when they talked about Z using old fashioned phrases.
BTW 'batwing' is just my name for the symbol on the halloween card and not a ref to batman but rather it was just what it first reminded me of. 2 dots for eyes, 2 for fangs and one odd wing.
Adam West has quite a monotone voice.
Thanks Trav, interesting post & thoughts! I'm still pondering it...
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:20 pm
The best and most connected with a legion of parallels to BM and Z was done by prof.Edwuard in Holland. It may be found on a recovery site like Back to the future? I could write him again.
As to the Zodiac killer typed note we found through Lt.Deemer,and is posted on our site. Magnolia Av.was a prominent street connected to the Gaul/Sharp murder. In RS same for CJB case. Note they were dumped in an alley and in the '66 (turn the second 6 upside down and you have a 9 1969 time of couple murder) Confession "alley" is mentioned as to a possible victim.
If anyone has any questions please post them.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:26 pm
bruce3 wrote:The best and most connected with a legion of parallels to BM and Z was done by prof.Edwuard in Holland. It may be found on a recovery site like Back to the future? I could write him again.
As to the Zodiac killer typed note we found through Lt.Deemer,and is posted on our site. Magnolia Av.was a prominent street connected to the Gaul/Sharp murder. In RS same for CJB case. Note they were dumped in an alley and in the '66 (turn the second 6 upside down and you have a 9 1969 time of couple murder) Confession "alley" is mentioned as to a possible victim.
If anyone has any questions please post them.
Thanks Howard! Eduard just joined this site, so hopefully he will add his information. I know he had a seven day waiting period as a new member to post his stuff.
What makes Magnolia Ave a prominent st. (I best go read up on your site for this info!)
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:54 pm
Zama,
In RS Magnolia Av.runs parallel with RSCC where Cheri was murdered. In L.A. the Silverlake district where Gaul and Sharp with a knife were killed, a Magnolia Av.runs- as in RS- very close to and parallel with the alley where both victims in Silverlake were found. Cheri was killed in an alley with a knife and in the Confession it warns about 'keeping females' away from alleys and off the streets and the writer mentions a young female going down an alley.
But,I see a hybrid of sorts and also a connection to LB.The most open clue is the typed all upper case characters written in November like the Confession -one in '66 and the other very terse version in '69,but reverse the 6 in 1966 and you get 69 or 1969 November! Both misspell too and incorrectly use to.. Both speak of the victim's beauty. Both show an interest in a victim's schedule,etc.
I am thankful LT.Deemer failed to turn it in (he would not tell us which det.that worked under him found it-it got tucked into his 'murder book' as he called it begging the excuse he was 'up to his... in murders' (there were lot's of 187's in this book as he called them too!) so it was 'lost' in that book-we later turned this infamous book which was lost and the note to the Rampart Division where Deemer was connected) or we would not have gotten this '69 note.
Since BD (he lived down the hall very close to Doreen and was Deemer's main suspect in the Silverlake couple murder and this short note was found in Gaul's room amongst her 'belongings'after her death there has to be a good link.If asny other Z suspect was staying there or the Scientology Manor it would be shouted on the house tops!
In our book there are more details and it's been on sale for only 5.00$! I am bringing copies up to the North Bay this holiday. Someone can save on postage.
entropy, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:12 am
Not that I trust Zodiac's scorekeeping at all but I thought it would be interesting to look at this crime in relation to Zodiac's reported body count in his letters.
11/8/69: "DES JULY AUG SEPT OCT= 7"
12/20/69: "I am afraid I will loose control again and take my nineth and posibly tenth victom"
In other words, Zodiac appears to be claiming 7 victims two weeks before the murders of Sharp & Gaul and 8 victims a month later so it doesn't quite match with his own scorecard.
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:12 am
entropy wrote:Not that I trust Zodiac's scorekeeping at all but I thought it would be interesting to look at this crime in relation to Zodiac's reported body count in his letters.
11/8/69: "DES JULY AUG SEPT OCT= 7"
12/20/69: "I am afraid I will loose control again and take my nineth and posibly tenth victom"
In other words, Zodiac appears to be claiming 7 victims two weeks before the murders of Sharp & Gaul and 8 victims a month later so it doesn't quite match with his own scorecard.
He was full of shit I think, but who knows.
The main things in the Gaul & Sharp case that seems interesting is the fact that a typed note from somebody calling themself Zodiac was found in the victim's room-that and the fact that Gaul was from the city of Albany, NY...the same town Ferrin, Crabtree, Gaikowski had all stayed at. Not to mention that Gaul lived a stone's throw(literally) from the Albany medical center. The Albany medical center was mentioned in one letter/cipher that was sent from somebody in Albany calling themselves Zodiac. That's pretty interesting.
All that being said, I have talked extensively, and multiple times with an L.A. cold case Detective that is quite confident that they know the ID of the two killers and there is no apparent connection to the Z case. This is what she passed along to me, word for word-
"This is a brutal 1969 double murder of two teens (19-year-old female and 15-year-old male) who were kidnapped and murdered while walking to the Scientology Church. It appeared that the female victim was sexually assaulted. Both were stabbed multiple times and bludgeoned with a tire jack. A suspect, James G., was arrested in 1975 on an unrelated offense and confessed to being at the crime scene with another suspect, Arthur D. James G.confessed because he “wanted to get it off his chest” and told detectives that he was forced at gunpoint to participate by Arthur D. Detectives suspected that James G. was not being truthful as to his actual participation in the murders (ie he was a willing participant rather than forced). Although James G. story was very detailed and accurate, Detectives were not able to corroborate his story with the case evidence. The original detectives worked this case vigorously until 1980 and even attempted to file the case with the DA. The DA’s office did not file the case due to lack of evidence. I contacted Property Division when I was reviewing this case and discovered that all evidence in this case was authorized for destruction on 1/27/97. I am still trying to determine if a latent print package exists on this case. Both suspects appear to be alive. Arthur D. is in his 80’s and James G. is in his 60’s."
Now if somebody wanted to really ignite a fire.....find a positive connection that shows Ferrin, Crabtree, or Gaikowski, knowing or being acquainted with Doreen Gaul from their time in Albany. That would really powerful.
Oh, and lest we forget, there is a guy named JOSEPH MAHAR from Albany, NY in Darlene's address book who had been in the military and was stationed in the SF bay area (before the z murders). He was arrested for attacking/robbing people at gunpoint at a bar in the SF area back in the 1950's. This guy is dead, so I am not afraid to throw his name or photo out there. Certainly, being an Albany resident, this guy could have sent a Z letter in Albany.
I will NOT be surprised if there is a connection between Zodiac & the city of Albany...there are just too many clues pointing to that city.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:33 am
Hi Howard and others,
The Batman-Zodiac connection was a site which I created to researched a possible connection between Batman and Z. Some things I found out about (can't show you cause I can't posts pictures yet).
Examples from the Detective Comics of 1939 featuring the Batman
- Batman used clothesline to tie some of his victims up
- Batman shot a guy in his head from close (after that Batman did't shoot any longer, readers were shocked)
- Batman send anonymous letters to the police with phrases like Zodiac.
- Batman signed his letters with a batsymbol like the one of the "Bates Die" letters.
- Batman called the police to tell them the location of his "victims", he even began his phonecall with:"This is the Batman talking..."
A lot of similarities in only a few of batman's first comics in 1939, coincidence? Possible? Or maybe that year had some significance to Zodiac? I dunno....
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:40 pm
The two black men mentioned by your source did NOT kill Gaul and Sharp!!!LT.Deemer and his men were very familiar with these two and Deemer himself (he was also a ploygrpph expert-was in Tate case for this reason-when he saw the victims Gaul and Sharp he said after he loked at the vicitms and later saw the reports-he was present-see autopsy report I have posted-'whoever did Tate did these kids')went to the prison to inteview the suspect and he told me no way whatsover was he involved. I will say this much.The detective responsible for bringing these two forward was an alcoholic Deemer knew well. When we found this detective years later he was retired and a bartender in a small lounge in L.A.(when we mentiond this to Deemer the first thing he said is he still drinking too much!) who still had the crime photos. We were able to get these color photos from him. That was good of him,but his case facts were skewed big time.
It was a motorcycle chain that was used on Gaul and Sharp-NOT a tire iron. I have the entire case reports.The witness made a large number of errors and for a good reason. These guys turn each other in as it were for legal help in their cases or what they may be charged with,etc.
The same in the Bates case.Their witnesses (all scumie types)all had reasons why they were providing info against BB. This is one of the reasons why the RS DA turned down the RSPD's evidence against BB not once but twice! It went to a Grand Jury twice. This is quite common. These types are known liars who try to save themselves even telling detectives what they want to hear.They are not that stupid. This is their world. The LA DA turned the case down. Not enough evidence,but what was submitted was inaccurate at crucial points. But that did not stop this detective from saying he solved the case. NOT!
Seagull, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:06 pm
Here are some of the statements made by James Green regarding his and Arthur Davis's involvement in Sharp and Gaul's murders. Personally I feel that the statements are a little short on detail and do not say anything that hadn't already been in the newspaper. Green did not come forward until six years after the crime. Also I have posted the letter written by the DA's office saying why they would not go forward and charge these two with the murders.
The statement from James Green's wife-
The letter from the DA's office-
morf13, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:45 pm
Thanks for posting that stuff, will take a closer look
bruce3, Subject: Rampart reports Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:45 pm
I had posted on these reports but it didn't go through!
These are true copies of the reports that were given to me several years ago.
Green's interview displays several erroneous statements. Here are just a few examples of case fact :Gaul was nude-earlier she was dressed differently than Green said;both persons were struck a few times with a motorcycle chain-not a tire iron(there is a chain-like doodle on the Z killer note found in Gaul's room; car was not the same and seen in the car that night were two white-not black men in front and the couple in the back-they had picked them up while hitching ;Sharp was carrying a manilla envelope with papers-Green didn't say anything about this-note det.asks him about this;witnesses heard Gaul crying out 'Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy'in the alley,etc,etc.
LT Deemer who knew the case as few did and was Lead investigator thought he was giving false statements and they did not line up with case facts most of which didn't make the news.
He seems to have taken basic facts found in the news as well as TV news and then filled in the rest with his fantasy tales.
When his wife was interviewed she denied Green ever saying what had happened that night. Deemer interviewed Art Davis Green's friend and he told us he was not involved from all that he learned. He didn't have good things to say about Lambert either. Deemer's chief suspect as well as the detectives working under him all believed Bruce Davis who lived down the hall from Gaul was involved.
Of interest there was a good sized reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer/s of Gaul and Sharp.There was real bad blood as they say between Green and Davis.
Gaul had been struck from behind in September'69. Someone was after her and Deemer believed it was Bruce Davis. Witnesses told L.T Deemer that Bruce was 'enraged' with Gaul.
The Z note found in her room said the author was going to kill her. She had to be taken to a hospital. I have copies of letters her BF wrote to her mentioning this event. All this stuff was very hard to acquire and track down,but I have tried to learn all I can about his terrible crime without leaving Z straight research aside.
Gaul and Sharp were killed during a full moon 11/21/69. Davis flew off to Great Britain on the 24th less than two days later! That's getting out of Dodge! This would be his third visit.The first was sometime before '66.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:34 pm
A possible Sharp/Gaul - Exorcist letter connection???
Sharp autopsy file - Exorcist letter symbol
bruce3, Subject: Ed came through again? Looks fascinanting that I can say Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:48 pm
ED!
Just Brilliant! As usual.
It does say in the autopsy report on my site that the knife wounds 'go every where' as if it was without reason.
Seagull, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:53 pm
I guess it would be helpful to know the details about Doreen Gaul and James Sharp's murders to compare it to the statements made by James Green so that you can see the differences in his story. Most notable to me were the description of what Doreen was wearing and the description of the car. Here are the seven pages of the first progress report.
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:36 pm
Nov.21.'69 Sharp was against them hitchhiking,but Gaul persisted. Sad. Once again a '66 Chevy is involved. I now believe it was Davis and Watson who killed the couple. I have the feeling based on al I know that Bruce 'held' while Tex stabbed,etc. I feel it was Bruce who did the 'motorcycle chaining' of the two in the alley.
This knife pattern caused LT.Deemer who worked the Tate case earlier in the year to state 'whoever did Tate did these two!' He told us this is what he 'thought' or said to himslef as he was examining the wounds.
We had spoken to two people that were still livng near the place where the bodies were lying! Rare for LA! They remembered it was 'lighted up in that alley like it was day time'and they could see Deemer and his men searching,etc., they said.
They heard nothing suspicous the night of the crime. Cold cases are so very frustrating. It takes so long and so much money for we amateurs to find people and gather info,etc. Scoring the report was very time consuming as it was on my list for many years. If we had not found Deemer's murder book there would be no report!
Both men BD/TW were seen together around Nov.23.'69 saying to an informant they 'needed money and that they were going to kill someone!' They were in a green VW bus. Davis,as given, left for Great Britain on the 24th.
It was a "motorcycle chain" that was used on both victims and Davis owned a BMW motorcycle-he was into MCs.
One thing as a bonus, if I may say that, in the RPPD report for Jan.70 is that investigators found 'members of the Family' staying at an apartment right behind Robin Graham's house (they did not note this connection as RG later was to vanish from the side of the freeway 11/15/70 with her disabled car -see my site under 'victims' ).
The mother told me she could see this place from her rear window! This is not that far from the Gaul/Sharp murders,and close to the LaBianica's place. Robin had a friend close to the LaBiancas she used to visit on Waverly Dr. I think this is where she was spotted. She also attended Pierce College in the Valley and a family member lived very close to the college.They had a lot of Valley connections. Davis and Watson used to score drugs there too from certain people at the Process Center!
Rose Tashman in '69 was another freeway victim with a disabled car (see my site). Her car had a flat as she was coming back from a Valley college. Her spare trunk tire was inaccessible as the key had been stolen! When her car was found there were flares 'neatly' set around the car,but she had vanished only to be found later by the side of the road.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:39 am
Inn the police report we can read:
No physical evidence was found.
I believe the devil is in the detail. If you know what to look for you can probably find it.
I found out that there was a graffiti left at the scene of the Gaul-Sharp murder.
It had the letters LHR in it (LHR=Lake Herman Road???) but also something that looks like the symbol used by the writer of the "Bates had to Die" letters.
It didn't look like part of the other graffiti on the wall (other style, less dark, and taking it's own place at the wall) at the scene.
Zodiac left his "graffiti" on Hartnell's car, telling about his past crimes. Is this double murder another crime connected to Zodiac?
Below the complete picture I took it from:
What do you think?
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:03 am
Not sure it's quite hard to make out - it look more like WC to me though at first glance.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:22 am
If it was WC it would be a W with 3 bows Like the symbol M of the word "More" in the "Bates Die" letter.
I think it is meant to be a symbol of some sort.
Sorry not agreeing with you, Traveler
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:41 am
Hey no prob lol, it's so unclear it could be any of the things mentioned. I'll try and see if I can enhance it but it is pretty low quality so no promises.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:59 am
Here we go. Not sure I'm any the wiser or if it's better lol but here it is with 3 (rather crude) examples underneath of what it might be.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:22 am
The first draw is made from middle to top of first peek. You didn't draw that in any of your drawings. I tried to draw what I see in it (your art technics are way better, Traveler!
)]
The overall look of the symbol looks more like 4 mountainpeaks or the upperpart of the batsignal. But details are hard to see in the picture so could be something special or anything else...
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:03 pm
When I get back to work I will check photo.There were six garbage can lids lined up on the ground near where the victims were found as given in my book. Some photos of the crime scene are in Bill Nelson's book.
Ed Sanders mentions the grafti in his book the Family.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:25 pm
Eduard wrote:The first draw is made from middle to top of first peek. You didn't draw that in any of your drawings. I tried to draw what I see in it (your art technics are way better, Traveler!
]
The overall look of the symbol looks more like 4 mountainpeaks or the upperpart of the batsignal. But details are hard to see in the picture so could be something special or anything else...
Ok I see what you are seeing now and why you are seeing it, at least for the M. That adjoining loop looks like part of darker graffiti to me which is why I didn't include it, it doesn't look to be part of the larger piece, merely under it or over it.
Seagull, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:30 pm
bruce3 wrote:When I get back to work I will check photo.There were six garbage can lids lined up on the ground near where the victims were found as given in my book. Some photos of the crime scene are in Bill Nelson's book.
Ed Sanders mentions the grafti in his book the Family.
I lightened the photo a little so that you can see the garbage can lids. They are to the right of the telephone pole, two rows of three can lids.
And this is a copy of the property report detailing the things found on and near the victims. Curiously the garbage can lids are not mentioned.
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:32 am
And there was a FoxTail Flats at LB. A foxtail was found under he victim.This seems like a hybrid LB and RS crime/s as given. At LB both females and male is stabbed. At RS Z writes about alleys and a lone female. Magnolia street was involved in both crimes.The all upper case typed note as at RS. Both notes written in Nov.,one in '66 and the other in '69(reverse the 6 and you get '66 to '69!),etc.There are some other match ups I hope to give Tuesday from work unless I don't get caught up from the holidays!
You have Eduard's brilliant stab pattern parallel in this thread.
Eduard, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:51 am
Bruce3 wrote:
You have Eduard's brilliant stab pattern parallel in this thread
Howard, all my work on the Gaul-Sharp case couldn't have been possible for you giving me info about it in the past.
I consider you the expert on this case.... Thnx!
bruce3, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:49 pm
Prof.Ed,
I am not an expert. There is always much to learn and so little spare time to learn it. On the other hand you have proved your expertise in many subjects related to Z.
I want to say also that I contacted LT Deemer by phone ( he called me once)and sent/received letters from him about the all cap typed Z note that was found. I knew his health wasn't the best as he was a diabetic so I wanted to make sure all was as given about that Z note. He would not tell me who found it though as it was a member of his team then, but it was tucked away in his murder book which was later given to his dept. to complete their set after his death as well as the Z note. This is how we got the complete Gaul case file.
Deemer told me it was a 'copy' there was no original! Just like the Confession! This greatly surprised me. I wanted to confirm it. I was very excited about the doc but I just had to have him confirm it. He did,but he was interviewed by phone about it later as well as other aspects of the case. I need to get the taped(with his permission at the time) interview.
When asked why he didn't turn it in then his reply was 'I was up to my eyeballs in murders '(he said 187's)and forgot about it. If you went through his murder book as it was called you could not help but see what he was talking about just dozens of murders. LT Earl claims to have sent a Z note copy of his copy to the 'two Italians' at SFPD who he thought were working the Z case. Z was not the big deal to Southern CA as it was to N CA.then. Of course, today it has grown to mythic proportions. They did work the Z case for a brief period of time then it went to Toschi and Armstrong. I later figured out he meant the two 'Greeks.'
Deemer's number one suspect was Bruce Davis and no other. He was 100% convinced he was 'involved.' He even tried to get a CII Agent to interview Davis in prison which he did, but Davis was 'not willing to talk''(surprise- surprise!).This doc has been published by us also. We got it from Deemer.
The reason I am posting this is because I have been accused by you know who -shoot from the hip that this Z doc was forged. NO it was not !!! Even though this kind of statement is to be expected this would be reprehensible.
Happy New Year !
sandy betts, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:46 pm
As soon a I read the report that Jim Sharps jacket was pulled down to his elbows, I pictured another person holding him ,while being stabbed by the other person.
It seemed as if Doreen had been raped, there is a lot of physical evidence that could be re-checked for DNA ? The hair found in their hands, should be checked against the hair found with Cheri Jo Bates.
From the foxtail I get another message, not only the Lake B connection.
Zorro is Spanish for Fox, Zorro's logo is the Z. Zodiac would want to leave something, to let police know he was there.
I wish that the graffiti on the wall was more clear !
There has been other suspicious graffiti found near other murder scenes. Also near my home and at Pam's in the early 90's. (Non gang like) Messages like : 7 in a row , Bets an ax .
I am very sure that we will see pictures of other graffiti in Lyndon's book.
The graffiti at the Gaul crime scene could also be a message. I do believe Zodiac wrote on walls, like Jack the Ripper did.
traveller1st, Subject: Re: Gaul and Sharp Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:58 pm
sandy betts wrote:The graffiti at the Gaul crime scene could also be a message. I do believe Zodiac wrote on walls, like Jack the Ripper did.
Problem is that it's not confirmed that JTR wrote that graffiti on the wall or any wall but I can't ignore the chance to point out some jacktherippernicity here given that the graffiti in the JTR case was found at GAULston street.
