One Man and His Dog.

[capricorn]

We'll probably never know the answers until the Z is caught, if ever.

Re. Z's getaway after the murder, I just happened to think that maybe he had a friend or acquaintance who lived in the neighborhood and he thought he'd just stop by to say "hi." Or, he may have been within walking distance of his favorite bar or nightspot.

I remember getting all around San Francisco in my younger days when I'd go there for a few days using the cable cars, buses and walking. I'll check the map but don't think the North Beach or Chinatown areas are all that far from Pacific Heights.

Since Z said he looked nothing like himself when he did his thing, I choose to believe that and think that could well have included the way he walked. He could easily have faked a limp or been wearing the wrong size shoes or had something stuffed in his shoes that would affect his gait.

Z was probably in pretty good shape and used to walking, regardless of his age and weight.

[capricorn]

After checking maps on Google, see that Fisherman's Wharf, Chinatown, North Beach, the Tenderloin, etc. are all withing walking distance of Pacific Heights.

I'm thinking that is where Z headed. He was smart enough not to go into the park as he knew it would be dark there and realized that is where the police would very likely search and he'd be cornered. He was probably very familiar with SF either because he lived there or spent time there.

He probably scouted out the area and had this all planned in advance.

If he headed to one of the tourist spots, he could have figured that he'd be there and have an alibi established by the time news of the murder had gotten out. Remember, this was all before the Internet!

Then, after he'd "come down" from the adrenilin that surely must have been rushing through his body, perhaps he checked into the Hotel California or similar establishment!

[capricorn]

Forgot to mention in the above post that if he'd gone to a public place that would be open at that time of night such as a bar or restaurant, he could have planned to just stay there until closing time which would have been 2:00 a.m.

Couldn't you just imagine him making sure to converse with the bartender or wait staff to make sure they'd remember him.....just in case?

He could have made a reservation at a motel, hotel, bus, airline or train to leave town asap or may have pre-planned sticking around for at least a few days to watch all the news he knew would surely be on tv and in the newspapers. He could easily then have returned to the scene of the crime and knew that nobody could possible question him as he'd be dressed completely different and not wearing his disguise.

[Kirkham68]

Forgot to mention in the above post that if he'd gone to a public place that would be open at that time of night such as a bar or restaurant, he could have planned to just stay there until closing time which would have been 2:00 a.m.





Are you deliberately overlooking the fact that he'd probably be covered with blood..?

[Bayarea60s]

Norse Stated....

"Anyway, about the timing, Bayarea: Yes, if Pelissetti did indeed meet the dog walker somewhere on Maple it would seem that KQ/Z would have been pressed for time. But Pelissetti's account of precisely where he met the dog walker varies - as Mike Rodelli has pointed out in this thread. If Pelissetti did in fact spot the dog walker (and Pelissetti has identified him as KQ, as we know) standing in a driveway on Jackson St (KQ's own driveway) this allows Z/KQ much more time."

I've never heard of Pellessetti's account of where he saw dog walker (coming down Maple from the direction of Washington) vary. We know Pellessetti never states he went any further than the southwest side of Maple St. at Jackson. I'm not sure what driveway on Jackson Pellessetti would have met KQ/Z on. I'm just not sure where that story develops from....We have 2 accounts from Pellessetti, the police report he turned in, in 1969 & the statements he made in the video.

Now, as for why Z/KQ would do such a thing in the first place - kill a cabbie, run home, get his dog and appear on the street as an innocent bystander - that's anybody's guess. Perhaps it was part of his plan. Perhaps he got a kick out of it. I have no idea. But if we assume that KQ was Z we must - I think - presuppose that playing games with the cops was part and parcel of what he was doing."

[Bayarea60s]

Norse stated....

"Yes - I think we can all agree that turning east onto Jackson needs some explaining. If Z intended to vanish into the park or get to a vehicle parked on W Pacific somewhere (those seem to be the most popular theories) it really makes no sense to move east on Jackson, rather than just heading straight north."

I think for Z it makes a lot of sense that he goes east on Jackson. His initial plan was for Maple/Washington, so heading east on Jackson gets him back to Maple. We know Z stays in the area, he can't see the activity in the park, but he can hear it. So he is close by. I like the location of 3636 Jackson. I've always envisioned Z either having a place to go to, but not living there. He had to have had a plan. We know his plan got altered at Maple/Jackson, and then falls all apart when he runs into Fouke within minutes of him killing Stine. I've read before that once a serial locks into killing someone, the urge for them to kill overcomes any reasoning. To me killing Stine in front of the last house before Cherry, not knowing, who or what is around the corner on Cherry seems totally out of reason. But we know that's what Z did. He threw any caution to the wind.

[Wolf 49]

Forgot to mention in the above post that if he'd gone to a public place that would be open at that time of night such as a bar or restaurant, he could have planned to just stay there until closing time which would have been 2:00 a.m.





Are you deliberately overlooking the fact that he'd probably be covered with blood..?

Why would he be covered in blood?

The shot that killed Stine was taken from the back seat. And a single shot like that does not require the shooter to be pressed up close to the victim. Zodiac could have sat even a little to the left of Stine's immediate rear, meaning blood spatter from the wound would have landed more on the rear seat and not all over Z's chest. (Anyone aware of anything in the police report detailing blood on the backseat?) I've always been puzzled by this assumption Zodiac would have been covered in blood. The Chinese and the Russians execute prisoners with single shots to the back of the head, and the executioners don't walk away with their uniforms spattered with blood.

There was quite a lot of blood on the ground outside the cab's passenger door, where Stine was draped out over the edge of the seat. That means his heart was still beating when he was positioned there, causing more blood flow/blood loss that spilled out onto the street. He didn't die instantly. Maybe the shot was relatively bloodless at the point of entry, and Zodiac got away clean, in more ways than one (to modify a cliche). Maybe Stine slumped over instantaneously, and spared Zodiac the bloodbath (sorry; I did it again...) Anyway.... I'm just not sure it's clear and accurate to presume the shooter in this murder was probably covered n blood.

[Bayarea60s]

Wolf Stated.....

"Why would he be covered in blood?

Wolf the thought that Z would be covered in blood comes from the kids. They saw Z in the front seat with Stine, with Stine supposedly in Z's lap. Well we know Z went into the front seat area of the cab to get Stine's wallet, keys, and tore off a portion of his shirt. So on the surface it would make sense that Z was covered in Stine's blood. This is what LE have always thought would be the case. Stine was wearing a jacket and if it were me I would wrap Stine's head in his jacket before putting him in my lap. Of course I don't know that Z did this. I've always wanted to see the outside of Stine's jacket like the lower back end to see if there was a lot of blood there. I can't think how Z could have totally eliminated getting some blood on him though.

The shot that killed Stine was taken from the back seat. And a single shot like that does not require the shooter to be pressed up close to the victim. Zodiac could have sat even a little to the left of Stine's immediate rear, meaning blood spatter from the wound would have landed more on the rear seat and not all over Z's chest. (Anyone aware of anything in the police report detailing blood on the backseat?) I've always been puzzled by this assumption Zodiac would have been covered in blood. The Chinese and the Russians execute prisoners with single shots to the back of the head, and the executioners don't walk away with their uniforms spattered with blood."

The official belief of the detectives was that Z rode in the front seat. They have stated a witness saw Z get in the front seat. I myself don't buy that one, for a number of reasons, least of which is the coroner's report. I don't see Z putting himself in the front seat, at a disadvantage, when shooting from the back seat would be much easier and controlled by Z. but that's my opinion, solely.


"There was quite a lot of blood on the ground outside the cab's passenger door, where Stine was draped out over the edge of the seat. That means his heart was still beating when he was positioned there, causing more blood flow/blood loss that spilled out onto the street. He didn't die instantly. Maybe the shot was relatively bloodless at the point of entry, and Zodiac got away clean, in more ways than one (to modify a cliche). Maybe Stine slumped over instantaneously, and spared Zodiac the bloodbath (sorry; I did it again...) Anyway.... I'm just not sure it's clear and accurate to presume the shooter in this murder was probably covered n blood."

I'm not convinced that Z would be covered in blood either. I would think he would have some on him, just because there was a lot of blood and Z handled Stine after shooting him.

[Wolf 49]

I've never believed for a second that Zodiac rode in the front seat. He was right-handed. If he's in the front seat he either a) shoots Stine left-handed, after pulling a gun out without Stine seeing him do it, or b) he reached across his own body to shoot Stine point blank behind the ear. Why on Earth would he place himself in such an awkward position when he knew in advance he was going to shoot the driver? That would not only place him in an awkward posture, unnecessarily, but it would also necessitate him being covered in blood after the shooting. It makes no sense he would ride in the front seat. This is a guy who pre-cut his ropes before the LB attack and directed a cab driver to an area he knew (or assumed from experience and knowledge of the neighborhood) would be dark and quiet at 10 p.m. He didn't leave all that much to chance, and sitting in the front seat leaves too much to chance, not the least of which is it gives the target a chance to fight back when/if he sees the gun come out.

A lot of this case is speculation, but I'd bet Warren Buffett's bank account that Zodiac was seated directly behind Stine when he shot him.

[Quagmire]

he reached across his own body to shoot Stine point blank behind the ear. Why on Earth would he place himself in such an awkward position when he knew in advance he was going to shoot the driver?

Two points here - firstly Stine wasn't shot behind the ear, he was shot in the cheekbone in front of the ear. Secondly, we can't 100% assume that this was a totally pre-planned attack. Yes, Z had a gun (and maybe a knife on him) but he may have carried a weapon frequently & just had a sudden urge that night or argued with Stine leading Z to spontaneously combust & pull a gun.

For a pre-planned attack there was an awful lot of loose ends. We know that he changed the final destination by one block at the last minute, got witnessed in the act and almost caught by the police, put his handprints all over the cab then had to rush to wipe them off whilst being watched and finally he didn't manage to get to a phone box to taunt the police (was he stuck in a house/hiding place close by?).

There's a lot to suggest that he was actually travelling to that neighbourhood that night then for some reason ended up committing a murder and then thought on his feet to clean up & take some evidence with him.