One Man and His Dog.

[mike_r]

Hi Tahoe-

It is typical of a MB that I locate one of the few people in SF who ever autographed cars with a felt tip and someone says that it suggests that "someone else close to him did it." Lots of people have suspects who were cruel to animals or wet their beds as kids. The difference I try to show between KQ and them is that he demonstrated behaviors that were quintessential, "signature" Zodiac behaviors. Of course, if your suspect wrote on cars, you'd be singing a different tune altogether, I'm sure. Would you say about your own suspect that such behavior proved that "someone close to HIM" did it? Be honest now!

Mike

[Bayarea60s]

@Bayarea60s

Do you think Fouke responded to a second dispatch (one that contained the same, erroneous info about the suspect)? That has been put forth as a possibility before, I think, and it's certainly a possibility (I'm not familiar with the routines at the time - would a second, identical dispatch be in line with how they did things?)

Let's assume Fouke did respond to a second dispatch. The question then becomes when this was sent out. What we know for a fact is that Fouke encountered someone outside 3712 Jackson St. And if that someone was Z, he would have proceeded up Cherry St after leaving the cab (as described by the kids) and turned east on Jackson, making his way (presumably as fast as he could under the circumstances) to where Fouke encountered him. How long did it take Z to make it from the cab to 3712 Jackson?

And, not least, where would Pelissetti have been at the time of this encounter?

Norse.....The fact that Fouke responds to a dispatch, and where he is located, and the speed he is travelling, and the route he took, it's not a 'possibility' that he answers a separate dispatch, it's a definite. it's an impossibility that Pellessetti can answer the same dispatch, get to the location, get out of his car intercept kids, walks kids back to their front door, speaks with them, walks back to the cab, inspect Stine and sees that Stine is dead, goes back to his squad car, radio in the new information to dispatch that he got from the kids, and then head down Cherry to Jackson and meet up with Fouke. All in a minute's time.

What we know is Fouke did encounter Z. Z tells us so, and in this case he's telling the truth, cause that precipitates Fouke writing his script. How would Z know that Fouke was even there, if it weren't Z?

It would take Z about 77 seconds, from the time he left the cab, to where Fouke first sees Z. We don't know when the kids call got through, and when the dispatch went to Pellessetti, and exactly where Z was in reference to all that. Are the kids talking to dispatch while Z is still in the cab? Does Z get delayed along the way? Maybe some people come out of their house and get in a car, and Z doesn't want them to see him? So he hides until they pass, we just don't know.

One thing always has bothered me, is why didn't Z just hide himself from Fouke. He would see Fouke coming, long before Fouke can see him. And Z knows it's a cop car coming.
He had time to hide if he wanted to. Course he doesn't know if Fouke is coming but is going to roadblock Jackson at Maple. Then he would be trapped.

[Bayarea60s]

Morf stated....

"Fouke responded to the initial call,of a black male, which is what mistakenly went out. Palissetti,once he was at the scene, found out from the witnesses, that the guy was a stocky white guy with glasses, and crewcut. He radioed in the correct info, and once they corrected it, Fouke realized that they had just passed such a man,presumably, Zodiac, but by the time they went back, he was gone"

The problem Morf is that Fouke never went back to where he saw Z, he proceeded west on Jackson, to Arguello, headed north 1 block, headed east down Pacific until he got to Maple. he was hoping to see Z, but he never did. From there I don't know what Fouke did. I've never heard him say. Did he just drive off? Did he stay until the calvary arrived? Did he share with other cops what he'd seen?

I get the feeling from watching the video that once investigators are on the scene, the cops ( the R/O's), disappear. Seems like they both have the attitude that the big boys are here now, let them earn their keep. And I know that's not a unique attitude between cops and detectives. At the end of the day I think Pellessetti & Fouke both do their jobs, as best they could with the information they were given. If Fouke knows he's looking for a WMA, a Killer, that would have been the end of Z, right there at 3712 Jackson.

[BuckwheatFlowers]

Pelissetti still alive? 'Cause someone needs to confront him on the dog walking stuff. Is there any chance I can hear the tape of him confessing to lying about what he saw all these years?

[Welsh Chappie]

Hi Chappie-

Well, that is quite a statement you are making. I've had the sense over the past few months given the tenor of your posts that you were heading at your own pace in this direction. In fact, I told my friend Jim that I felt you were slowly but surely being drawn to PH as the place where Z lived. However, I feel that if you are looking for the name on the doc to be that of KQ and that your entire thesis revolves only around that one fact, you may be disappointed. There are MANY reasons to believe your central thesis is correct (behavioral profile fits: one of the few people it does fit, my circumstantial case, etc.) but I'd caution you about crawling too far out on a limb with those FOIA request results lest someone cut off the branch you're on. Here is why:

The redaction in the date field is very long. KQ's birth date is from a month with a short name (not the shortest one, but close). So I am not holding out hope on that doc containing his name for that exact reason.

As for the statements that once SFPD realized that the man who killed Stine was Z, they should have read their own reports and re-interviewed everyone their officers had encountered that night (if only as witnesses to see if they may have seen something important without realizing it). My reaction is: Who is to say they did not? But even if they did, that does not mean that Z would have said anything incriminating. Pelissetti has said there is a report he wrote on his encounter that is in the files. I feel that there is but nobody has ever shown it to me or even admitted its existence. Who know what is in the files? Maybe they interviewed and re-interviewed lots of people. At that time, I doubt anyone could have imagined that Z lived in PH and was made of money. I don't believe that was happening in 1969. That is because of the old "profile" they used until Walter came along (and which some people still insist on using today, unless they are writing their own "profile" of Z without any background or knowledge of profiling other than maybe watching Criminal Minds, LOL).

Mike

Mike, in regards to your comment I've highlighted above, I'd have to answer....

I am not gambling all of what I have stated on Qvale being named by the eight year old as a sort of 'Everything rests on this one thing' scenario. No, quite the opposite. If his name is there in the document that would be more a sort of 'Icing on top of the cake' reveal to go along with the many other things I list previously in these posts. If it turns out that Qvale isn't in the document, then that doesn't change the fact that he was seen by Armond Pelissetti either standing on a drive at or near Maple St, or walking his dog on the sidewalk of Maple street, depending on which version you believe.

For me it makes far more sense that Qvale was seen by A.P simply standing on a driveway because I never could figure out how it was that A.P has just gone down Jackson as far as Maple, not seen any suspect on Jackson, but see's a dog walker at Maple and then a minute or two later here comes Don Fouke and now theres no sign of any dog walker on Maple but there is a lumbering lone white male shuffling his way down Jackson toward Maple. I couldn't get my head around how there was apparently two separate white males, one with a dog on Maple, the other alone on Jackson, and these two neither cross paths nor does Don see the Dog Walker and Armond reports no lone white male. But if these supposedly different men were in fact one singular man seen by both Armond and Don, then that explains how this discrepancy.

I know the school of though about the timeline is that 'Don encounters Armond as Armond is making his way down Cherry toward Jackson, and not as he heads back from Jackson and Maple and is on Cherry but that is to ignore the 2008 documentary where Armond clearly states that he's arrived on scene, took an update from the kids, broadcast the new 'BOLO for White Male' update, walked down Cherry, turned onto Jackson and gone as far as Maple before turning back up the hill on Jackson and onto Cherry when, in A.P's own words: "At that point Officer Don Fouke, who was accompanied by what I Believe to be a rookie Officer Eric Zelms at the time, pulled up very quickly in their police car and asked me had I seen anybody, did I know anything about where the suspect could be? I told them no."

[Norse]

Norse.....The fact that Fouke responds to a dispatch, and where he is located, and the speed he is travelling, and the route he took, it's not a 'possibility' that he answers a separate dispatch, it's a definite. it's an impossibility that Pellessetti can answer the same dispatch, get to the location, get out of his car intercept kids, walks kids back to their front door, speaks with them, walks back to the cab, inspect Stine and sees that Stine is dead, goes back to his squad car, radio in the new information to dispatch that he got from the kids, and then head down Cherry to Jackson and meet up with Fouke. All in a minute's time.

Yep - I do agree that Pelissetti's statement makes it very hard to believe they both responded to the same dispatch. If he did all those things before he met up with Fouke, it seems impossible they could have responded to the same dispatch. Not least if we factor in that Pellisetti actually claims that his meeting with the dog walker also took place before he met up with Fouke.

The question still remains when the dispatch Fouke responded to went out - how much time passed between the first and the second dispatch? If what you estimate is there or thereabouts it would have taken Z less than a minute and a half to reach 3712 Jackson.

And, just to make that clear, if we do not doubt Fouke's statement we must conclude that the second dispatch contained the same, erroneous info about the suspect as the first one. Which would seemingly indicate that they sent out the second dispatch before Pelissetti had the chance to get on the radio and correct the suspect info.

Yet another question is this: We know that Fouke was in the area (PH was his beat that night). So, why didn't he respond to the first dispatch?

[Bayarea60s]

Norse Stated......

"Yep - I do agree that Pelissetti's statement makes it very hard to believe they both responded to the same dispatch. If he did all those things before he met up with Fouke, it seems impossible they could have responded to the same dispatch. Not least if we factor in that Pellisetti actually claims that his meeting with the dog walker also took place before he met up with Fouke.

The question still remains when the dispatch Fouke responded to went out - how much time passed between the first and the second dispatch? If what you estimate is there or thereabouts it would have taken Z less than a minute and a half to reach 3712 Jackson.

And, just to make that clear, if we do not doubt Fouke's statement we must conclude that the second dispatch contained the same, erroneous info about the suspect as the first one. Which would seemingly indicate that they sent out the second dispatch before Pelissetti had the chance to get on the radio and correct the suspect info.

Yet another question is this: We know that Fouke was in the area (PH was his beat that night). So, why didn't he respond to the first dispatch?"

Norse....Here's the problem with what Pellessetti stated on the video.....It adds time......It means that you must add at least 2+ minutes before he encounters Fouke at Cherry and Jackson. It would take at least that long for Pellessetti to walk from Cherry/Jackson to Jackson/Maple and back to Cherry to meet up with Fouke.....
Where's Z during this time? We took Pellessetti's statement on the video and went back out there, to see if it could at all work, and it could, but Z would have to be in hiding from Pellessetti while Pel. went down and back up Jackson. Which by itself is possible, but there are more problems with this scenario. By adding time then we have to accept that the call Pellessetti made to dispatch, updating dispatch, never happened at all, or dispatch was all on drugs that night. I would think the nature of the updated call Pellessetti should have made would by the number 1 priority type call dispatch would ever receive, an armed guy who has just killed a cabbie. Fellow officers would demand that dispatch handle this as top priority. and the other question would still remain....Without Fouke telling Pellessetti what he had encountered on Jackson, why would Pellessetti even be heading east on Jackson? He could have continued on cherry towards Presidio/Park, or headed west on Jackson towards Arguello. He has 3 ways to go, just happens to pick the way Z did? I have a hard time with that one.

When you walk the path that Z walked, from Washington/Cherry to 3712 Jackson, it's about 1 1/2 minutes. But we don't know that Z walked that path directly or not. He may have continued down Cherry past Jackson and then turned around, he may have been aware of Armand getting to the scene so quickly and went into hiding. And we don't know how accurate what we see on the video is. We know that Hollywood many time splices what folks say, omits other things, and it could change what Armand was saying.

Well we also know that Pellessetti was in PH that night. Did dispatch have the capability in 1969 to see where all SFPD cars were, and would place the call to the closest squad car to the scene of a crime? I wouldn't think so, but maybe they did. I don't know enough about the dispatch process to really do any more then make guesses how it would have worked.

[Bayarea60s]

Norse.....

Just another thought on what you had stated. If Armand meets up with the dog walker, before he meets up with Fouke, then the dog walker absolutely could not be Z. I don't see the dog walker being Z, based on what Pellessetti stated that the walker was much older and skinnier. Someone commits a murder right around the block, and he goes home and gets his dog? I don't think he had the time to do that. And he certainly wouldn't have the time to go back home, after seeing Pellessetti, ditch the dog go back up Jackson and then stroll east on Jackson for Fouke to run into him. That just doesn't make any sense, nor is there the time to do all that.
I don't know what the Investigative Team did, but if they didn't cover every house in that immediate area, and make sure Z didn't live right there, they would look like the stooges of investigation. I presume they thoroughly combed through the PH neighborhood and any male slightly resembling the composite would be thoroughly investigated. But maybe they didn't.

[Welsh Chappie]

I've suspected for ages, long before I even heard the name kjell Qvale, that Zodiac was local to Pacific Heights and there are many many reasons for this but the main two IMO are:

Zodiac is thought to be heading for the Presidio and the cover of darkness and foliage and yet, he completely ignores the quickest route to get there, the one which would dramatically reduce his chances of being caught or at the very least, encountering police, and that's the entrance at the top of Cherry St. This seems odd to begin with but when you couple it with Pelissetti confirming that he and Peda responded to the scene with "Red light and siren" it becomes even more illogical because Zodiac must have heard the sirens coming because he has only seconds ago left the cab when Pelissetti pulls up. Surely ducking into the Presidio grounds makes far more sense at Cherry St in and of itself, but knowing theres police approaching would make it even more appealing for Zodiac to use that route. Yet, despite knowing the police are responding and the risk of capture now alarmingly high itself, he ignores the Cherry St entrance in favour of staying on the lit and populated streets, streets he knows the blue meanies are dashing to. Makes no sense.....unless he's heading for a house.

Chief Lee said of the Zodiac, and the search for him that was made around Julius Kahn: "He (Z) is a liar. He was not anywhere in the vicinity of the park, we had that area surrounded and searched by dozens of police using search lights and 7 police dogs. They searched tree by tree and bush by bush.... A mouse couldn't have escaped our attention."
I woud have to agree with his conclusion, Z simply wasn't there. Yet, he had to be somewhere close enough that he could see the search and West Pacific Avenue in order to accurately tell police where the cars were parked and that motorbikes went by and in what direction. Wherever he is watching from, it would need to offer good cover (otherwise it becomes a 'if he can see them, they can see him' situation). What better than either a back garden of one of the homes backing onto West Pacific, or in a house itself.

I was watching an interview with/Documentary about convicted Serial Killer Michael Bruce Ross earlier. In this Documentary one of the Detectives talks about what led to Ross being captured and, after pointing out that Ross stayed longer at his final crime scene than one may expect, and seemed almost comfortable there, stated the following:

"In my experience, of over 100 homicides, normally a person who commits a murder, all he wants to do is flee that area as fast as he can. He doesn't want to expose himself to any likelihood of getting caught. That, and one or two other things, led us to believe that perhaps Mr Ross had a connection close by to this area and, in fact, we were correct because he only lived 3 miles down the road."


Link showing the above comment can be seen here at 7:00 minutes into the clip: http://youtu.be/HNJdTjGva6g
"

[Welsh Chappie]

Oh and one other reason I forgot to mention that seems, at least to myself anyway, to suggest that Zodiac may have been local to Pacific Heights and, more specifically, Jackson Street is his vague, non-specific description of the area where the crime occurred.

"This is the Zodiac Speaking.
I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night." and then in the next letter when recounting his encounter with the blue pigs, he offers that it happened as "I was walking down the hill to the park..."

Reading the above comment made by the author, it suggests that the person writing the letter is totally unaware what the actual street names are that he ended up walking along, nor does the writer appear to be familiar with the specific name of Julius Kahn playground, referring to it simply by the general term of 'The Park.'
Now it could actually be as the writer seems to be suggesting and he really doesn't know the name of Cherry or Jackson Streets, nor is Julius Kahn a name he is familiar with in relation to the park, but is that really likely to be true? Zodiac turns up at a totally alien neighbourhood and commits a homicide or, is he simply trying very hard here to suggest to us that he obviously cannot be from that area or even familiar with it as a visitor because he doesn't even know any of the street names. He offers us 'Over by Washington & Maple Streets' when talking of Cherry Street, can only say that he was walking down the hill when he encountered police because he seems to want readers to conclude that he doesn't know the name of that street that is a slight hill when walking down it that is obviously Jackson St, and the park in which he claims to have disappeared into and then hid in while the search was in full swing, well that is just 'The Park' and no specific name like Julius Kahn is used because he obviously doesn't know the name of it.....or at least that's the impression he wants to give in order to give the appearance that he is not in anyway connected to that area even as a visitor to the area.

The fact that Zodiac was a serial killer based in a specific geographical area, that being the Bay Area, what is the likelihood that he would choose a location for his next murderous project that is completely out of his own comfort zone? Very unlikely. There are those Serials that do offend in towns and cities that they have never before in prior to murdering someone there but more often than not, these type tend usually to be the drifting Serial, or the long distance truck driver. Zodiac would have almost certainly had knowledge of the area and the street of Jackson and Cherry if only because, at the very least, he had mentally gone over the crime and the way it would unfold complete with his triumphant act of escapology. He may possibly have made several dummy runs from the Theatre District to Pacific Heights noting the time taken to travel from point A to point B and commit the murder, and how long it takes to walk to wherever it is he was going.

So, did Zodiac choose a totally alien, unfamiliar area in Pacific Heights and not only is the area unfamiliar territory to him, but he's decided that he is going to go there and commit this murder in a cab and then escape on foot on the street which should leave him incredibly exposed and at risk of capture, or did he take the cab there because he felt comfortable being there on foot because he's local to that area and he lived just around the corner from where he would shoot the man that would unknowingly be following directions to his own demise?