One Man and His Dog.

[Tahoe27]

...I do applaud Mike's effort and think it was a good idea to look thru newspapers for men frequently writing letters to the editor.

For sure! It could certainly lead down a path to a suspect.

I think the difference for me is someone saying "my POI used to write letters to the editor"...vs. "I have copies of letters to the Editor my POI wrote in the same tone and similar handwriting".

Circumstantial evidence can be powerful...but, what is it?

[Bayarea60s]

Well Chappie one hell of a topic you raised here. Just read all the posts here so many points made I can't possibly address them all. I'll try to address the things I know, the timeline of events. And you're correct it just doesn't make sense from what we've been told. And it's sad cause of anything we should know, is the exact timeline of the 2 main players here; Pellessetti & Fouke/Zelm, but we still don't, not really.

When the video came out and we all saw it, we all hit the boards immediately, because it raised more questions then it answered, and brought up a lot more new questions. some suggested back then, "Oh it has been 40 years, these guys don't remember correctly"..I never bought that at all. Maybe a lot got edited from the interviews of Fouke and Pellessetti, I don't know. but the thought came to me at the time, well if those two (forgot) what took place, and they at least are trained to remember things, then it would kind of discount all other conversations with all other principles/witnesses that has ever taken place, and reported to the boards, for the same reasoning used on Fouke and Pellessetti.

We know without a doubt that the dispatch Pellessetti answers is not the same dispatch that Fouke answers. It's about 200' from Stine's cab to Cherry & Jackson, at a minimum that would take Pel. 33 secs. to walk, but Pel. had to look around cars, houses for an armed killer, might have taken him longer than 33 secs. but that would be the minimum. Pel. had some travel time to Wash. and Cherry, he never says where he was when he receives the dispatch (Fouke does). So Pel. arrives at the scene, he sees kids approaching cab, he jumps out of his squad car, intercepts kids, walks them back to their house, speaks with them, finds out perp is white, goes over to Stine's cab to check Paul out, sees that Stine is dead, (Now he says he couldn't get back to radio in squad car quick enough to report updates he has found out), but does he do that? I don't think so. Nevertheless, he has covered all these areas + his travel time to site + radios in update to dispatch + 33 secs minimum to get to Cherry & Jackson. At best maybe 2 minutes from time he first gets call, to him approaching Cherry/Jackson. And that's a very aggressive timeline for Pellessetti to do all that in just 2 mins. But 2 mins. is too long, in order for him to run into Fouke at Cherry/Jackson, if they're both responding to the same dispatch.....

Fouke receives dispatch as he is approaching Washington St., he is travelling north on Presidio. He is about 3,011' from Cherry/Jackson. He says he was travelling around 35 - 40 mph with his running lights on. At 30mph he covers entire distance in 68 Secs., At 35mph he covers it in 59 secs., at 40mph he covers it in 51 secs.

Now Pel. states that Fouke never said anything about seeing anyone to him. Well I'd have to question Pel. at that point. If Fouke doesn't tell him anything then why does Pel. head east on Jackson and stops at Maple? Now he says it was dark there and chances of seeing anyone wasn't good. But again, why did he head towards Maple, why not just keep going on Cherry towards Presidio, or head west on Jackson towards Arguello? And why wouldn't Fouke mention the person he saw? And where's that 2nd dispatch alerting all of SFPD in PH area that perp is a white killer, armed and has killed the cabbie?
"I couldn't get back to that radio quick enough" is what Pel. stated.

What Pel. says in the video is that he went to Cherry/Jackson, headed east on Jackson to Maple (a distance of 364', it would take him at least 60 secs. to get there, talk to dog walker 10-15 secs. and walk back to Jackson/Cherry another 60 secs.), that would add at least 2mins/15 secs. to timeline, and still no update by dispatch. Over 3 mins. would have passed and dispatch doesn't send a deadly update to protect the SFPD that's out there? I don't think so.

I think the dog walker was an older, skinnier guy, as Pel. stated, just out walking his dog. If the guy he saw remotely resembled Z composite he would have said so. Would have been a great lead. Z wasn't seen with a dog, clothes were clean, no blood, and time and looks just doesn't allow for the dog walker to be Z at all.

[Norse]

@Bayarea60s

Do you think Fouke responded to a second dispatch (one that contained the same, erroneous info about the suspect)? That has been put forth as a possibility before, I think, and it's certainly a possibility (I'm not familiar with the routines at the time - would a second, identical dispatch be in line with how they did things?)

Let's assume Fouke did respond to a second dispatch. The question then becomes when this was sent out. What we know for a fact is that Fouke encountered someone outside 3712 Jackson St. And if that someone was Z, he would have proceeded up Cherry St after leaving the cab (as described by the kids) and turned east on Jackson, making his way (presumably as fast as he could under the circumstances) to where Fouke encountered him. How long did it take Z to make it from the cab to 3712 Jackson?

And, not least, where would Pelissetti have been at the time of this encounter?

[morf13]

@Bayarea60s

Do you think Fouke responded to a second dispatch (one that contained the same, erroneous info about the suspect)? That has been put forth as a possibility before, I think, and it's certainly a possibility (I'm not familiar with the routines at the time - would a second, identical dispatch be in line with how they did things?)

Let's assume Fouke did respond to a second dispatch. The question then becomes when this was sent out. What we know for a fact is that Fouke encountered someone outside 3712 Jackson St. And if that someone was Z, he would have proceeded up Cherry St after leaving the cab (as described by the kids) and turned east on Jackson, making his way (presumably as fast as he could under the circumstances) to where Fouke encountered him. How long did it take Z to make it from the cab to 3712 Jackson?

And, not least, where would Pelissetti have been at the time of this encounter?

Fouke responded to the initial call,of a black male, which is what mistakenly went out. Palissetti,once he was at the scene, found out from the witnesses, that the guy was a stocky white guy with glasses, and crewcut. He radioed in the correct info, and once they corrected it, Fouke realized that they had just passed such a man,presumably, Zodiac, but by the time they went back, he was gone

[Norse]

When you go down the road of.... "well maybe he wore a disguise, a fat suit, etc", where does it end, anybody could be zodiac. Why couldnt Z simply have been as was described, a stocky to heavy man? Mageau described Z as having a large face(had a light in his face so i dont put alot of stock in his account), Z at Berryessa looked like he had a gut, was bulky, and Narlow & crew were confident Z was over 200 lbs, and finally, at the Stine scene, Z was described as stocky. I think it's clear, from all accounts, Zodiac was what he was described as.

I agree with this in general, morf - the most obvious explanation (for the various witness statements describing Z as heavy in one way or another) is that he WAS a fairly heavyset guy. The law of parsimony and all that. It's still interesting to play around with the other idea, though. And there may be details which could support such an idea. The leanness of the face (incongruent, one could argue, with a heavy frame), the "unshapely" attire Hartnell describes, etc.

Did Mageau state explicitly that Z was wearing a t-shirt?

[Norse]

Fouke responded to the initial call,of a black male, which is what mistakenly went out. Palissetti,once he was at the scene, found out from the witnesses, that the guy was a stocky white guy with glasses, and crewcut. He radioed in the correct info, and once they corrected it, Fouke realized that they had just passed such a man,presumably, Zodiac, but by the time they went back, he was gone

Yes...but if Fouke was responding to the initial dispatch (the same one Pelissetti was responding to) the question becomes whether it's possible for Z to make it (on foot) from the murder scene to 3712 Jackson in time for Fouke to pass him at that location. If what Bayarea says above is accurate Fouke needs a minute or so to make it from Washington/Presidio (where he received the dispatch) to Jackson/Cherry. Getting to 3712 Jackson would have taken him less than that. He also states that the man he encountered didn't appear to be in a hurry. He certainly wasn't running. How long does it take Z (and we presume the man Fouke passed was Z) to make it from the crime scene to 3712 Jackson. That is a major question here, as I see it.

[morf13]

According to mapquest, it is 45 seconds BY CAR.
I should point out that the route it gives you from Washington & Cherry, is to go down Washington, turn left on Maple, and its right there. Here's a photo of the route. Also, don't forget in the grand scheme of this, Zodiac told Paul to go to Washington & Maple, NOT to Washington & Cherry. For some unknown reason, Stine went a block further, maybe z changed his mind for some reason?

[mike_r]

Hi-

The point is not that I am saying that I have amassed all of this circumstantial evidence and that I believe I have solved the case. Those opinions are a dime a dozen. The point is that one of the elite profilers on the planet did a profile of Z that points away from the suspects that people have been looking at for years and towards a person who is used to wielding power, like the businessmen who would live in a wealthy neighborhood like PH, and that HE believes that the circumstantial evidence I have amassed says I have solved the case.

A few years ago when I took out my website, I mentioned that KQ wrote to me twice on Monarch sized paper. Some poster wrote and said that Monarch sized paper is not all that uncommon and that what I was saying was really no big deal. But I have searched the suspects page on this site and Tom's under the word "Monarch" and KQ is the ONLY person named on those pages who wrote on Monarch sized paper. If there is another one out there that I am missing, please, please enlighten me because I want to know! So it seems to me that it IS a big deal that he wrote on that type of paper given that no other POI's are even alleged to have done so, let alone proven to have done so.

Sure, it is no big deal that he looked like the sketch. It is no big deal that he wrote a letter to the Chronicle in June 1969. Sure it is no big deal that he was described as having a slow manner of speaking like Z. It is no big deal that he wrote on Monarch sized paper, or that he had a habit of autographing cars with black felt tip, of that he was spoken to on the streets of PH after the Stine murder, or that Z autographed a car that KQ had imported from Germany. BUT when you put them all together and combine it with the profile, it begins to become a big deal.

Mike

[Tahoe27]

...Sure, it is no big deal that he looked like the sketch. It is no big deal that he wrote a letter to the Chronicle in June 1969. Sure it is no big deal that he was described as having a slow manner of speaking like Z. It is no big deal that he wrote on Monarch sized paper, or that he had a habit of autographing cars with black felt tip, of that he was spoken to on the streets of PH after the Stine murder, or that Z autographed a car that KQ had imported from Germany. BUT when you put them all together and combine it with the profile, it begins to become a big deal.

Mike

Ahh, but did he have a lazy eye and a limp?

Yes, all interesting, but unfortunately it wasn't enough and I fear stuff like this will never be enough. DNA is said to be bogus, not Zodiac's prints, he fits the look of every POI whether 5'8" or 6'2", 160 or 250 lbs., bald with a beard, size 8 shoe or a 10.5.

If KQ was known to sign cars with black felt tips, would it be wise to do it at LB? Have you ever considered it might be someone else who was close to the man?

[Norse]

Blue: Fouke's route from Presidio/Washington (roughly), where he said he received the dispatch to the point somewhere down Cherry St (where he met Pelissetti). I don't know exactly where this was (which is an interesting question in itself...as I understand it Fouke turned south on Cherry St and then met Pelissetti, he doesn't state whether this encounter took place immediately after he turned south, i.e. close to the intersection or somewhere further down Cherry St).

Red: Zodiac's possible route from the crime scene to 3712 Jackson St. Nothing indicates he chose a different route. The kids have him leaving the crime scene, heading north on Cherry St, towards the park. If the man Fouke encountered outside 3712 Jackson St was Z, then he must have followed this route - if he stuck to the streets.

In theory he could have made his way through the block, as it were, going over fences and right through properties (as indicated by the green arrow) but we have no way of knowing whether he did. And I personally have no way of knowing whether this was plausible at the time.