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For what it's worth I think Pelissetti's account of what happened up until the point when he went looking for the killer is straight forward and rings completely true:

He responded to the initial dispatch (robbery, possible assault, BMA) and arrived at the scene shortly after. The kids came out on the street, he ushered them back inside. He checked on Stine, concluded he was dead, then went back inside to talk to the kids. They told him what they had seen and he then got on the radio to correct the BMA part and to get the message out that there was a killer at large. In his original report this is exactly what he says. The only significant difference between what he said back in '69 and what he says in the DVD interview is that in the latter he doesn't say explicitly that he got on the radio to update the information. But "couldn't get to the radio fast enough" could easily be interpreted to mean just that - in other words, I don't see any discrepancy here, it's just a different choice of words.

Here's the problem, though:

If Pelissetti's account is indeed accurate (and, again, it rings completely true to me) it would seem that Fouke didn't get the updated information, or at least that he didn't register it. Because he says - explicitly - that it was only upon meeting Pelissetti on Cherry St that he learned they were looking for a WMA. The latter detail doesn't seem like something you'd be confused about - it's a very clear, particular recollection of what went down: if Fouke did in fact receive the updated information before meeting up with AP - but forgot about it later - it seems unlikely he would retain a clear memory of talking to AP and going "Oh, f**k, we just passed the guy!" when AP informed him that the suspect was white.

Bayarea60s wrote:

This is a very good question to ask Don. One that would be on my mind, being that he states he's responding to a shooting. Is it that Don heard the initial dispatch, that AP responds to, but it's not where Don and Eric are headed, not their normal beat, and when dispatch sends out Armand's call, Don just misses the race update. Very well could be. Armand wouldn't ever hear his message that he sent cause he'd be in pursuit of killer. Or it could be that dispatch again didn't send the race update. I find that hard to believe, but I guess that's a possibility. Or AP didin't include that part of the update, which I would think would be highly unlikely. Of all the Z cases, these 2 officers movements should long ago been ironed down without any doubts left. This is the easiest and most proveable area I think of all 4 cases, and yet here were are still with numerous questions.

This is right at the core of the problem.

If both AP and DF are more or less right about what happened initially that night, there is simply no way they could have responded to the same dispatch. If they did, it took DF impossibly long to get to the point where he met up with AP (according to a 2005 interview with Mike Rodelli this point was just south of the intersection, i.e. practically on Jackson St).

I think it's plausible in-itself that DF simply didn't respond to the initial dispatch. It was a robbery, not a murder and he may have considered the reported location outside of his beat that night. Besides, I have never seen it established precisely what kind of radio communication these guys had in their prowl cars. It could be that DF was able to hear AP responding to the initial call - thus making it unnecessary for him to do anything about it: several cars responding may have been considered overkill given what they all believed was the situation.

However, that AP somehow neglects to mention that the suspect is white when he gets on the radio to amend the description I have a much harder time believing. And yet Fouke is adamant that he was on the lookout for a BMA when he passed the WMA on Jackson St. And there's no reason why he would lie or be confused about this, is there? If he had received the correct description and was driving west on Jackson in response to a second, updated dispatch - well, he would have stopped the WMA, wouldn't he?

The only thing I can think of to reconcile these seemingly impossibly contradictory versions of what actually happened - has to do with the radio communication they used. If the new, amended description (WMA, killer, armed and dangerous) had to be communicated to a central (from AP) and then back out from the central to all cars, it is possible that someone at that central screwed up initially. For some reason or other they sent out another dispatch containing the original description, not the amended one - which would explain how Fouke could respond to a second dispatch and still be under the impression that the suspect was black.

However this does not explain why Fouke - who didn't feel it necessary to respond to the initial dispatch - now decides to head for Wash./Cherry. If his reasoning was that this was outside his beat and a crime which didn't merit the presence of multiple prowl cars - well, then logically he shouldn't respond to the second dispatch either, given that this is identical to the first and contains no new information.

Lastly, if one of these possible explanations happens to be the right one - one may still ask whether it would be natural/to be expected that Fouke makes a mention of the fact that he received several dispatches that night. He says he responded to a dispatch whilst driving north on Presidio Ave., he never says anything about having received a similar dispatch some minutes prior to this. Maybe it didn't strike him as relevant - I don't know. But I sure would like to ask him a couple of questions: Did he receive an initial dispatch he did not respond to? What type of radio communication did they use? Is he absolutely positive that he didn't receive an amended description before meeting up with AP? Can he remember the exact nature of the dispatch he did respond to?

The last question pertains to a final, possible explanation (which Bayarea also touches on above): Could it be that AP corrected the nature of the crime (from robbery/possible assault to murder) but somehow forgot to amend the description of the suspect (i.e. he neglected to mention that the suspect was a WMA)? I find it very unlikely. The teens would have provided him with a description of the suspect and it would be hard indeed not to take note of the obvious flaw in the original description and thus make a point of correcting this particular detail when he got on the radio immediately after.

Welsh stated.....


This is a very good question to ask Don. One that would be on my mind, being that he states he's responding to a shooting. Is it that Don heard the initial dispatch, that AP responds to, but it's not where Don and Eric are headed, not their normal beat, and when dispatch sends out Armand's call, Don just misses the race update. Very well could be. Armand wouldn't ever hear his message that he sent cause he'd be in pursuit of killer. Or it could be that dispatch again didn't send the race update. I find that hard to believe, but I guess that's a possibility. Or AP didin't include that part of the update, which I would think would be highly unlikely. Of all the Z cases, these 2 officers movements should long ago been ironed down without any doubts left. This is the easiest and most proveable area I think of all 4 cases, and yet here were are still with numerous questions. [/quote]

"This is right at the core of the problem.

If both AP and DF are more or less right about what happened initially that night, there is simply no way they could have responded to the same dispatch. If they did, it took DF impossibly long to get to the point where he met up with AP (according to a 2005 interview with Mike Rodelli this point was just south of the intersection, i.e. practically on Jackson St)."

Well D, was approaching Washington, heading north on Presidio, when he receives the dispatch, he is about 1 1/2 blocks south of Jackson

"I think it's plausible in-itself that DF simply didn't respond to the initial dispatch. It was a robbery, not a murder and he may have considered the reported location outside of his beat that night. Besides, I have never seen it established precisely what kind of radio communication these guys had in their prowl cars. It could be that DF was able to hear AP responding to the initial call - thus making it unnecessary for him to do anything about it: several cars responding may have been considered overkill given what they all believed was the situation."

DF wouldn't respond to a possible robbery in PH, that would be for any units in PH, AP being one of those. Right they really at this point don't know for sure what's going on. So AP responds. We don't know at this point where Fouke's/Zelm's are, if we knew that we could complete the timeline....

However, that AP somehow neglects to mention that the suspect is white when he gets on the radio to amend the description I have a much harder time believing. And yet Fouke is adamant that he was on the lookout for a BMA when he passed the WMA on Jackson St. And there's no reason why he would lie or be confused about this, is there? If he had received the correct description and was driving west on Jackson in response to a second, updated dispatch - well, he would have stopped the WMA, wouldn't he?

I don't think AP would miss updating the BMA to a WMA. I have to believe at this point if DF receives the update, he reacts accordingly when he sees suspect. It is possible DF misses it, dispatch misses it, AP misses it. Someone missed it somehow......and that would be the 2nd communication missed within a very short period of time.

The only thing I can think of to reconcile these seemingly impossibly contradictory versions of what actually happened - has to do with the radio communication they used. If the new, amended description (WMA, killer, armed and dangerous) had to be communicated to a central (from AP) and then back out from the central to all cars, it is possible that someone at that central screwed up initially. For some reason or other they sent out another dispatch containing the original description, not the amended one - which would explain how Fouke could respond to a second dispatch and still be under the impression that the suspect was black.

I think at this point you can never get a clear story on the dispatch trail. Best one could do is sit both cops down and learn how the dispatch would have worked. I remember SFPD was very quick to point out back then there was (1) error made by dispatch, and they pinned it on dispatch. It could have been the kids description, or just a simple miscommunication.

However this does not explain why Fouke - who didn't feel it necessary to respond to the initial dispatch - now decides to head for Wash./Cherry. If his reasoning was that this was outside his beat and a crime which didn't merit the presence of multiple prowl cars - well, then logically he shouldn't respond to the second dispatch either, given that this is identical to the first and contains no new information.

Again DF doesn't know severity of situation, not his neighborhood, but once call is updated to a shooting which is what DF says he is responding to in the video, you would think at that point they would have to have updated race of suspect. So here it can only be one of three scenarios, It's either on Dispatch, AP or DF. Again the 2nd dispatch according to DF is a shooting, so I think that becomes an all units in vicinity type of call.

"Lastly, if one of these possible explanations happens to be the right one - one may still ask whether it would be natural/to be expected that Fouke makes a mention of the fact that he received several dispatches that night. He says he responded to a dispatch whilst driving north on Presidio Ave., he never says anything about having received a similar dispatch some minutes prior to this. Maybe it didn't strike him as relevant - I don't know. But I sure would like to ask him a couple of questions: Did he receive an initial dispatch he did not respond to? What type of radio communication did they use? Is he absolutely positive that he didn't receive an amended description before meeting up with AP? Can he remember the exact nature of the dispatch he did respond to?"

[b]All those are good ??? for Fouke, and the whole dispatch is the unknown to us laymen. There used to be SFPD personnel that came on to TV's site. Someone on the inside would of course at least be able to give all the dispatch type answers. Well all's DF states in the video is that he's responding to a shooting, no mention of any other dispatch's.[/b]

"The last question pertains to a final, possible explanation (which Bayarea also touches on above): Could it be that AP corrected the nature of the crime (from robbery/possible assault to murder) but somehow forgot to amend the description of the suspect (i.e. he neglected to mention that the suspect was a WMA)? I find it very unlikely. The teens would have provided him with a description of the suspect and it would be hard indeed not to take note of the obvious flaw in the original description and thus make a point of correcting this particular detail when he got on the radio immediately after."

Again it's one of the 3, Dispatch, AP or DF who made the 2nd dispatch problem of the evening. The 1st dispatch problem would involve the kids & Dispatch. AP states he got the update from the kids, but when he checked on Stine that would for sure confirm it. You know I put that 2nd dispatch error in severity with AP saying that DF never updated him about his encounter. I always have found it hard to believe that DF wouldn't mention the white guy down the block, just as a safety issue for AP. Why wouldn't DF mention it? To let AP get surprised? I don't think so.

Bayarea60s wrote:Welsh Stated....

" A.P states that "We (Himself and Officer Frank Peda) responded to a radio call, told us that a cab driver was being robbed and/or possibly assaulted at the corner of Cherry & Washington Streets in Pacific Heights." That sounds accurate to me, and i''ll say why later.

D.F states that: "We (He and Zelms)]were patrolling the Eastern side of the Richmond District going Northbound on Presidio Avenue. We had just passed Washington Street when a broadcast came in of a shooting at Cherry & Washington Street's."

Question: Who's broadcast is Don hearing and responding to here? It can't be the same one as A.P because he responds to a cab driver being robbed and possibly assaulted. The witnesses who called it in could not know the driver had been shot and report that at no time did they hear a gun shot fired. So who's broadcast is Don responding to, and how would they know there's a shooting involved? There's only one person that can know this information at this point, and that's the man at the scene, Armond Pelissetti.

Armond doesn't actually come out and state that upon checking Paul over that he discovered he'd been shot, but it's safe to assume that he does know this and here's why: The broadcast that Don Fouke responds to specifically states that there has been a shooting at Wash & Cherry streets, and the only person on the Planet who can know that at this point, other than Zodiac himself, is first responder Armond Pelissetti. So, given that it has to be Armond's radio call of a shooting that Don hears and responds to, how come he hears this bit, but not the amended broadcast that A.P would have probably given in the same message, that suspect is not Black, but White?

Armond says he checked Paul over and "was 99.9% certain he was dead" and then after doing this says "At this point I re-took the suspect description, and that's when I was told it was a white guy. I couldn't get to the radio fast enough to let every one else know." So, Armond is saying that he first checked Stine, realised that he'd been shot and was almost certain he was dead, and then discovers after this that the offender is white. So the logical thing to assume here is that because Armond must be the person broadcasting the fact that it's a shooting that's occurred at Wash and Cherry, then surely in this same broadcast he must also give his amended 'White Male, not Black' update."

You know the last time I watched the video that word jumped out at me too. When Fouke's says "shooting". All the times I'd watched it before that word passed me by, but this time caught my attention. Before hearing Armand say "I couldn't get to that radio fast enough", I was always suspicious of that statement because I thought Don was responding to a robbery call, and I was thinking that Armand made that statement but didn't really say he did that. I don't know if Don is just stating literally he did get a call of a shooting (that's how I take it), or he was only saying he was responding to the shooting. But if Don responded to a shooting as he states, then you would think along with the "shooting would have been the WMA update vs. the original BMA". Did Don just miss that? Sounds like Armand did call it in before he went down Cherry. This is what I hate, both are still with us. I feel they've never been effectively interviewed.
Timing wise this would clear up a lot for me. AP makes the call, Fouke's hears it, responds and they meet up at Cherry/Jackson a minute later. And if it happened that way then what AP stated in the video about going first to Maple/Jackson and then when he gets back to Cherry/Jackson is when he meets up with Fouke. Well that would be discounted for sure, AP couldn't do that in 1 minute, and 1 minute is about all the time he would have.

When Don gets the broadcast of a shooting (which must be Armond himself because as stated, he is the only man in a position to know this) he himself says he was going North on Presidio Avenue and had just passed Washington Street. He states that in response to this: "We turned West on Jackson Street. As we Approached Maple Street, I noticed on the North side of the street, A White Male Adult...." and goes on to give an accurate description of him before declaring "The initial radio description of the suspect was that of a Black Male, 5 '10, or something like that. Seeing that it was a White Male, in an affluent neighbourhood - walking along the street, we didn't think it was the suspect so we proceeded to the next block which was Cherry."

How can Don hear and respond to Armond's radio call that this is actually a shooting, but not hear Armonds update that the guy that did it was White?

[b]This is a very good question to ask Don. One that would be on my mind, being that he states he's responding to a shooting. Is it that Don heard the initial dispatch, that AP responds to, but it's not where Don and Eric are headed, not their normal beat, and when dispatch sends out Armand's call, Don just misses the race update. Very well could be. Armand wouldn't ever hear his message that he sent cause he'd be in pursuit of killer. Or it could be that dispatch again didn't send the race update. I find that hard to believe, but I guess that's a possibility. Or AP didin't include that part of the update, which I would think would be highly unlikely. Of all the Z cases, these 2 officers movements should long ago been ironed down without any doubts left. This is the easiest and most proveable area I think of all 4 cases, and yet here were are still with numerous questions. [/b][/quote]

In regards to the highlighted line, I already have a theory to answer it, I've suggested it several times before and it's this: There never was an incorrect BMA broadcast. Now why on Earth would the Police say there was if there wasn't, I hear you ask? Well, before we ask why, let's look at when. When did this 'BMA' story first show up in any official capacity/report? Obviously in the very first police report, right? Lets have a look....





Well how strange. No mention here in this immediate post-crime report. In this report there is no mention of an initial incorrect ethnic description.


Wait....Hold on, what's this? A letter to the Editor, "This is the Zodiac Speaking...



Oh Dear! He's making them look like incompetent bumbling idiots! Sh*t! What can we do to counter this comment because, it goes without saying, the public will be in uproar if they know we encountered him, only to allow him to walk away especially after he himself had directed them up the hill speeding after phantom gunmen that don't exist as he disappears into the night chuckling to himself at our stupidity and gullibility! Uhhhh, hmmmm..... Ahhh! We'll say that Officers did see A White Male on Jackson that night, but we'll say the reason they didn't apprehend him was because there had been an incorrect description broadcast stating that the suspect was a Black Male Adult.

Then, and only then, after Zodiac 'outs' them and the encounter, thus backing them into a corner and forcing them to respond to his accusation, do we first hear the "What happened was...." excuse of the incorrect description in Fouke up's memo.

Where is this dispatcher! Bring fourth this numpty so that we may lynch him! Give us his/her name! No?

In the other instances the dispatcher's are not only known by name, but they also feature quite willingly in the documentaries and police reports etc. And ok, I suppose Nancy Slover and Dave Slaight could be argued that they feature in these reports & documentaries because they actually spoke to the Zodiac but still, what the witnesses told this dispatcher would be of extreme interest to the public, especially since the report indicates that eight year old witness identified someone as the shooter! Where is this incompetent, hearing impaired, despatcher? Why has he/she never been named or asked to account for this most grave of errors? After all, this did lead to Zodiac being able to escape suspicion on the night and escape according to The SFPD.

And was it standard protocol within the SFPD Homicide Division that when your bog standard, run of the mill, every day homicide occurs that not one, not even two, but THREE Inspectors respond to the scene? I thought that Inspectors oversee investigations, and it's the Homicide Detectives, Sgt's and Lt's that actually respond to the scene itself. Armond gets back from Maple Street, and is greeted firstly by Insp. Krake pulling up, quickly followed by Insp. Toschi and Insp. Armstrong.

What's all these highly ranked Officers doing here for an everyday cabbie robbery/homicide? Don't know but it's nothing to do with Armond radioing back to HQ to say he's detained One Kjell Qvale as a suspect in this homicide.

Welsh Chappie wrote:And was it standard protocol within the SFPD Homicide Division that when your bog standard, run of the mill, every day homicide occurs that not one, not even two, but THREE Inspectors respond to the scene? I thought that Inspectors oversee investigations, and it's the Homicide Detectives, Sgt's and Lt's that actually respond to the scene itself. Armond gets back from Maple Street, and is greeted firstly by Insp. Krake pulling up, quickly followed by Insp. Toschi and Insp. Armstrong.

What's all these highly ranked Officers doing here for an everyday cabbie robbery/homicide? Don't know but it's nothing to do with Armond radioing back to HQ to say he's detained One Kjell Qvale as a suspect in this homicide.

In the SFPD, Chappie, 'inspector' is the normal title for any detective.

One thought that keeps sticking out to me is this. Let's assume for a moment that KQ is Zodiac. Now lets assume that the police did see and/or talk to him and/or detain him that night. Why would he (if being Z) announce this murder as a Z attack? Even if Z was egotistical beyond belief, why take credit? Many, many, many more man hours are going to be poured into a high profile serial killer case than a cabbie murder/robbery case. I just tend to think that Z was smart enough to slip this murder into his back pocket and go on with his next murder.

Now, this logic would make sense regardless of who Z was. However, if the police really didn't see/talk to him that night, its a lot less risky to send in the shirt pieces and boast about the murder than if he was actually seen/talked to by LE. I just think that if the police actually talked to Z and knew who they were talking to (the police recognizing who KQ was as opposed to DF seeing a man and asking him about suspicious activity then driving along) then its too risky to associate this crime as a Z crime because you can be connected as being in the vicinity of the murder.

VERY good point zodiphile.