One Man and His Dog.

[Welsh Chappie]

It's also rather convenient that right after the Pacific Height's bungle on Zodiac's part, he not only tells us he isn't going to announce his kills anymore but also seems to stops killing in the Bay Area completely, with no confirmed murders that LE could attributed to him anyway. But after his little incident in Pacific Heights, we see another first from the man who, up to this point, has been utterly sinister, heartless and purely evil in his words and actions and never once shown even the slightest inclination of remorse, empathy, or regret in that he now writes the "Dear Melvin" Letter in which he seems overcome with guilt all of a sudden and is crying out for help....

377px-Zodiac-MelvinBelli.jpg

The sincerity of the writer in this letter is believed by some, dismissed by others.
Some believe he's genuinely reaching out for help, others believe his motive being sinister and cynical and nothing more than a basis for an insanity defence should he be caught in the near future.

I personally fall into the latter of these two theoretical camps and believe that the timing of his sudden attack of conscience is no coincidence in that it happens to come just a few short weeks after Chief Lee goes public to say they have the Zodiac's print's, a composite of what he look like, and that "His capture is just a matter of time."

[capricorn]

Excellent points, Welsh Chappie. We will never know how Zodiac escaped.

After thinking a bit more about this and rereading his letter, he says the cops could have caught him if they'd waited for him to come out from under cover. That makes me think perhaps he just lingered where he was, knowing the cops were off looking for him and by the time it was obvious they were searching the park, he must have started relaxing so felt he could just gradually work his way away from the spot you indicate.

Now wouldn't you think too that by the time the police cordoned off the park and were searching there that a crowd might have gathered outside? If so, Zodiac could have just joined the looky-loo's and pretended to be a tourist in town who was just passing by if anyone should have asked.

I really have a hard time thinking Z was Qvale as that all seems to have come from the eight year old. In my mind, I wonder how mature that kid was and how sharp. Also I would like to know just how it was that the child identified the man. In all the commotion and horror, it would be confusing enough to an adult, I'd think but even moreso to the child.

Kids are usually pretty curious and observant and I'm assuming these lived at the address in the affluent neighborhood. I just wonder how much people there, at that time, really knew or saw their neighbors. If Qvale really had a dog that he was in the habit of walking, then I'd agree he'd be rather well-known by the neighbors even if only seeing him with the dog.

Reading about his successful business and seeing his age however, really makes me think he could not be Zodiac and the child was confused.

I've been to San Francisco at least five times in my adult life. I had a car and drove there at least three of those times and remember that the houses have garages and that parking can be difficult. I'd say it is a safe bet that Mr. Qvale had a very nice car that he drove and parked in his own garage. Further, I'd think that he could then enter his home from the garage without being seen by the neighbors but that is just a guess from seeing the video that was posted and my recollections of driving in San Francisco.

So many people walk there and there are so many tourists that I wonder just how many neighbors really know each other, even by sight.

Zodiac said he was under cover so that could mean lots of things if he was telling the truth. Could he have slid under something literally, such as a car parked on the street? If there was an alley, he could have found a good spot.

Do you know if the Boy Scouts have a lesson about this? If for example, Z had been one, he may have gone by some things he learned there....like always be prepared?

[Bayarea60s]

Welsh....

I remember the day this letter came out in the paper, and the first thing that struck me about it was, "So Z when you write to the big time attorney you certainly clean up your act". Nice straight lines very neat printing, etc. I guess this is how a homicidal serial maniac, writes professionally....

[Bayarea60s]

Welsh Stated....

"Oh and earlier in the thread Bayarea60s you hinted, or implied by your wording, that Kjell was simply your average car salesman. Just to make a point, here's what one of his obituaries says:
"At his (Kjell's) peak, around 1970, he operated 100 dealerships. He estimated that as a wholesale distributor and retail dealer, he sold a million cars representing 36 makes."
And that's just his auto businesses, he had many other investments in many other companies."

[b]Never meant to imply any such thing Welsh. Along with being The #1 Car Dealer in the Bay Area, he was a very successful horse breeder, heavily involved in GG Fields and Bay Meadows raceways....He was a very busy man....Already been down the KQ road years ago. He doesn't fit MM's description (mostly a profile, where the nose would stand out), doesn't fit the kids, doesn't fit Fouke's. He doesn't fit. AP stated he saw one guy, and the guy had a dog, and didn't even remotely fit the kid's description of who they saw. He had a dog year's ago, but when the dog don't fit, just eliminate it. When Maple St. doesn't fit, just move the guy.

That video I think you sent out from George Shinn (the guy who married KQ's granddaughter). there's was another Zychronicity I forgot to mention. When I viewed the video that included the PH Area, dates would pop up on the left side of the screen, that blew my mind, it started on like Oct. 8th, then the 9th, & I think it went to the 10th, but not the 11th. So it happens I guess that's when they were vacationing in SF , and the dates that show are the different days they were filming. Another one of those Z things. Seems like it always happens...[/b]

[Bayarea60s]

Welsh Stated....

"First, I personally think there is little doubt that the white male that Don Fouke encountered was the Zodiac. My reasons for doing so are based on Fouke's description of the suspects clothing being identical to the description given by Bryan Hartnell of his attacker, who we know was certainly 'Zodiac', at Lake Berryessa just two short weeks before."

Z's apparel on Oct. 11,1969, does resemble how Bryan said Z looked, but even more importantly, looks like the kids description as well....


"So, we know that in Pacific Heights, Zodiac gets as far as 3712 on Jackson Street before being forced to take evasive action and turn onto that residence pathway to avoid Don and Eric who are approaching. As Don passes by the Zodiac and realises he's white, he then, in his own words, decides to "Step on the gas." After passing the WMA, He would arrive on Cherry 10 to 20 seconds, at most",

Nope, 7 seconds, 8 at most[/b

"later where he stops to talk with Armond Pelissetti. At this point, Armond enlightens Don on the description update, and Don immediately realises that the guy he just passed 45, maybe 60 seconds ago, is the suspect."

[b]Again time is much tighter than that....By the time AP tells DF of the guy being white and a cabbie is dead, it has been about 20 seconds since Fouke left Z at 3712 Jackson. Their total conversation wouldn't be more than 15 seconds....Something Like.....

DF to AP...."What do you know"?

AP to DF....Well I just updated dispatch that we have a dead cabbie who was shot and the witnesses said perp was white, not black...

DF to AP...F ck I just passed a white guy down the block....

Apparently not much more than that said between the 2. And that's about 10 seconds worth of chatter there.... I know when DF leaves AP at Cherry/Jackson, he's about 18 seconds to pulling up to back end of Maple, on W. Pacific. So, 7 seconds for DF to get to Cherry/Jackson after leaving Z, + 15 second conversation with AP, + 18 seconds to get to back end of Maple St.....total time since DF saw Z....About 40 seconds. Z couldn't get through playground to foilage in such a short time, Z watches DF turn onto Cherry, so he wasted (probably had to wait,couldn't take off running away as DF pulled away, Zelm's might see that guy is running away or DF could see it in rear view mirror). So 7-8 seconds gone for Z....And if Z had a car waiting on W. Pacific, then the question to DF would be, "did you see any car driving out of W. Pacific towards Presidio Blvd"? I would think if DF saw tail lights he would have given chase.
Again, we try to move Z out of area, yet keep him in car in area, so he could hear, not see what's going on. I would think if Z had a car and could get out of area, he would have. Sitting in a car, within ear shot of park action could make Z a sitting duck.


"Armond then continues to proceed onto Jackson Street, with Don stating that upon realising the guy was the suspect, said "We turned around to get to the presidio and our reasoning, well, my reasoning on that was because turning down Maple would lead directly through the Presidio wall and into Julius Kahn Playground which had a lot of foliage."

So, given that within only seconds of passing Zodiac as he shuffles up the steps onto the drive, you have Armond coming down Jackson, and Don and Eric turning around to go to W. Pacific Avenue, when does Zodiac have chance or time to escape? Here's a view of the routes to give a visual perspective."

Well wait a second now, you originally stated that Z has a 45-60 second head start on AP, and add to that the 45 secs. it would take AP to get down Jackson, across the street from 3712 Jackson. That's 1 min. 90 secs. at the minimum. Just normal walking pace would put Z over 500' away from 3712 Jackson. Now Z has just killed Stine, at some point i think he picks up his pace. And AP has never stated that he saw anyone on Jackson.

Pacific Heights Route A.P and D.F small size.png

After their brief encounter on Cherry, Don Fouke turns around and is signified by the blue arrows, Armond's route by the red. Yellow Star: Location of Zodiac just a minute or so before both Fouke & Pelissetti set off on the above route's.

"So, what's the point of all this? Well, the point is, or question is rather, if Zodiac has a vehicle waiting, whether it be on Jackson Street or West Pacific, how does he manage to get away considering Don is driving down West Pacific literally within a minute or two of passing Z at the Maple intersection so would clearly see any vehicles as they attempt to pull away and, the same can be said for Zodiac having a car on Jackson because Armond is on this street and would again see any vehicle as it pulls away. Once Fouke gets to the Presidio the area is very quickly surrounded and cordoned off. Zodiac simply doesn't have the time to leave 3712, get to the location of a vehicle, get in and pull away without Don or Armond being on that same road to see it."

Now this is a true statement, unless the cops ignored cars pulling away. But I've never heard of a killer in a get away car, deciding not to get away. Especially when this killer has already been seen by 2 cops. As far as on foot, Z would have about a total of a minute. 15 secs. for the DF/AP conversation, and 45 secs. for AP to get down Jackson across the street from 3712 Jackson. And if Z is moving faster than AP then he has plenty of time to disappear from AP's sight. By the time AP gets to Maple, Z is already at Spruce. And since AP never goes beyond Maple. Lots of cars parked on Jackson to hide behind......

[Bayarea60s]

Welsh Stated....

"Kjell's brother Bjorn Fredrik is quite an interesting POI also, born in 1924, with connections to Riverside, CA. Kjell also had a place down in Lake Tahoe....

Bjarne Qvale Riverside.png

[attachment=0]Kjell Lake Tahoe.png[/attachment"

Now this is good....It shows that KQ had a place, in or near, Tahoe City. He had a boat, or access to one. The Peeking through the Pines letter, the picture taken that was attached to the card I believe was found to be in or near Tahoe City. If you have a place in Tahoe and you peek through the pines, there's the Lake. Donna could be in the Lake. I know Tahoe is real deep, and real cold.....Like Tahoe stated though, the Lake is just one of a billion places she could be. And it's not to say that Donna's abductor had to have a place in Tahoe area at all. Some I'm sure could argue better to have no ties to Tahoe at all. That would make it harder to catch the abductor. So we know that in 2000, KQ applied for the continued use of a pier that had a boat lift attached to it. We don't know when KQ bought the place. Lot's of the Bay Area rich and infamous owned places up there. Well who else could? The mob folks I guess. I know my bosses did, and they also owned a campground up there with like 32 units on it, but I'm sure they had nothing to do with Donna's disappearance. I bet KQ was probably a member of something like the St. Francis Yacht Club as well in The City. Perhaps a Country Club as well. But this is good.....

[Bayarea60s]

Capricorn Stated......

"If Zodiac had a car, he could have easily driven to a spot such as Telegraph Hill perhaps and been able to generally observe the commotion and/or heard sirens from there.

Sandy Betts or someone very familiar with San Francisco would know better just where the closest high point of observation would be. There was a murder on Mt. Tamalpais which isn't too far away. Would that be a good vantage point?

My earlier thought was that he could have headed to a bar or restaurant that he knew would be open and just hang out and perhaps establish an alibi if anything came up in the future as to his whereabouts that evening. He could say he'd been at the theatre and then decided to stop in someplace for a nightcap.
Of course he couldn't do this if he'd been covered in blood but I thought the officer said the man he thought was Z had no blood on his pants. There are many hotels in San Francisco that have lounges on the top floor so he could have gone somewhere like that to observe.

Z could also have had a change of clothes with him in his car or some water and a first aid kit if he'd anticipated having to clean himself up."

What Z writes about in his Oct. 12, 1969 letter is what he can hear, nothing as to what he can see. So he's close enough to hear the action in the park, but limited in that he can't see the action. In his Nov. '69 letter he writes about what he supposedly can see. Of course all of that information that he reports he would have gotten from the news.
Mt. Tam is too far away, as is "The Top of The Mark", the bar atop the Mark Hopkins Hotel. And again these would be observation points, what he could see. He doesn't report what he can see. And if he is in a bar or theater he can see and hear nothing. He has 2 cops that have seen him that he knows of...

[Norse]

And if Z had a car waiting on W. Pacific, then the question to DF would be, "did you see any car driving out of W. Pacific towards Presidio Blvd"? I would think if DF saw tail lights he would have given chase.

Just a minor point which struck me: DF and AP didn't know they were chasing the Zodiac. They were after a cabbie killer. So, I would think the idea of him having a getaway car parked nearby wouldn't have occurred to them - at least not as an obvious possibility. I think they were primarily - perhaps exclusively - looking for a man on foot.

[Norse]

Looking for some reports/sources - hopefully one of you guys can help me out:

1. The 8yr old who supposedly identified Stine's killer. Does anyone have link to the report in which this is mentioned?

2. A man was apparently picked up and taken to the crime scene for identification. One of the kids who witnessed Z leaving Stine's cab had supposedly recognized the killer (but obviously failed to make a positive ID after having looked at this man, whoever he was). Does anyone have a link to the source of this information?

Thanks.

[Seagull]

Norse in answer to your first question, please read this thread-

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1102

Open the attachment in WC's first post to see the FBI document that mentions the eight year old witness.