Mason & Geary area.

[Nachtsider]

I don't know how else Toschi would know for a fact Zodiac sat in front the entire time...

Maybe all he was doing was stating his opinion as fact, as so many people are wont to do.

[Welsh Chappie]

Well, if that's directed at myself Nach, then, I don't and won't, and never have, stated opinions I have as 'factual', quit the contrary in fact. It's my contention that Kane is Zodiac, but I make a point of ending my website about Kane with....

"So, can I tell you I know for fact Lawrence Kane was The Zodiac? No. Would I advise readers to dismiss all other suspects based on the above article and my opinions? Certainly not."

[Nachtsider]

Easy, Chappie, haha. It wasn't directed towards anyone specific; just humanity in general, based on the many people I've hobnobbed with over the years.

[Welsh Chappie]

Easy, Chappie, haha. It wasn't directed towards anyone specific; just humanity in general, based on the many people I've hobnobbed with over the years.

Well now I admire that attendance to being as specific as that! Question: "Who are you saying that about?" <<<Specific Question. Answer: "Only humanity as a whole".

Hmmm, that means it includes Smithy.! ..... Smithy, I shall assume that your a member of humanity which means..... Nach said you state theory as fact. Muhahaha.

And that was a joke by the way Mod's lol. I got a chat violation the other day for having a bit of a joke...

I apologize in advance for going off topic again here, back to the thread topic....

[Soze]

I am sorry if this has been addressed. If it has, please direct me to the location.

Do we know the precise location of where Paul Stine picked up his ride? I would like to confirm/compare it to a location I am thinking it may be.

Thanks

Soze

[Soze]

I found what I was looking for.

Thanks

Soze

[entropy]

Many of us, myself included, have discussed the 'final destination' if you will of Paul Stine's cab and asked the usual questions of why Washington & Maple/Cherry, why in such a public area, how did he escape - on foot or by vehicle? And that's only a couple of questions, there are many more. But, I think there's been much attention paid to the taxi's destination that the pick up point/area has been rather overlooked.
Lets forget about that location for a moment, we know that there were several witnesses in and around Cherry/Jackson St, so what about witnesses at the pick up location? We know that the pick up area was in the heart of the theatre district in the area of Geary & Mason Streets. Considering this area was and is very popular with the public, and the time of evening Zodiac would have hailed Stine (Approx. 9:45pm), it's risky for Zodiac to hail Stine in this area because any number of theatre goers could have witnessed him doing so. If he were a regular attendee of the theatre and his face was known to other theatre goers, this again would be quite risky. In Presidio Heights we know Zodiac exited the cab, wiped down his side of the cab's exterior before walking around to Paul's driver side door to wipe the exterior of that down also. This must mean that Zodiac, at some point, knows he touched the outside of Paul's cab door. I have theorised on other threads that when Zodia hailed Paul, he pulled over and Zodiac & Paul had the initial discussion through Paul's driver side window (For example, Paul: 'how far are you going, as I have another fare.' Zodiac: 'Presidio district, W&M Streets.' Paul: 'Ok, I can do that, get in') ad that Zodiac had walked up to the cab, leaned or knelt down to speak to Paul, and placed his hands on the area where the window was would fully down. If Zodiac did speak to Paul though his window when he first pulled over (I can't think of any other reason why Z would wipe down Paul's door) then that would suggest that Zodiac was on the left side of the street as Paul drove up it, and that Zodiac probably crossed the street to speak to Paul through his drivers window. Do we know if theatre goers and general public were ever questioned or any appeal for witnesses made?

Missed this post from WC but I think it's a valid question. Why the heck would Z choose this location on a busy Saturday night in one of the busiest locations in downtown SF?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Geary ... 087096a468

Geary St. is one way so I think it's a reasonable assumption that Stine was traveling west on Geary St. when Z hailed his cab and he continued west on Geary St. toward Z's destination. Anything interesting nearby on that map? As WC mentions, Mason & Geary is in the heart of the SF theater district. Considering Z's affinity for plays (the Mikado) and films, I honestly think the most likely scenario is that Z was attending the broadway production of HAIR at the Geary Theater (now the American Conservatory Theater) at 415 Geary St. less than 1/2 block away. The play (according to Graysmith) let out at 9:30 p.m., 15 minutes before Z hailed Stine's cab only a couple hundred feet away. Seagull also discovered that a show called The Grand Kabuki was playing at Curran Theatre next door, which could also be an attraction for Z considering his interest in the Mikado.

Check out the Street View on the google map to get a sense of the close proximity to the Geary and Curran theaters. It would also explain the possible need to wipe down Stine's driver side door if Zodiac spoke to him on the the southwest corner of Mason & Geary near the theater and perhaps leaned against the door or door handle there.

Just my opinion but it's an image that kept running through my mind constantly when I stayed in a hotel a few blocks away and walked by that corner every day.

[Soze]

Missed this post from WC but I think it's a valid question. Why the heck would Z choose this location on a busy Saturday night in one of the busiest locations in downtown SF?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Geary ... 087096a468

Geary St. is one way so I think it's a reasonable assumption that Stine was traveling west on Geary St. when Z hailed his cab and he continued west on Geary St. toward Z's destination. Anything interesting nearby on that map? As WC mentions, Mason & Geary is in the heart of the SF theater district. Considering Z's affinity for plays (the Mikado) and films, I honestly think the most likely scenario is that Z was attending the broadway production of HAIR at the Geary Theater (now the American Conservatory Theater) at 415 Geary St. less than 1/2 block away. The play (according to Graysmith) let out at 9:30 p.m., 15 minutes before Z hailed Stine's cab only a couple hundred feet away. Seagull also discovered that a show called The Grand Kabuki was playing at Curran Theatre next door, which could also be an attraction for Z considering his interest in the Mikado.

Check out the Street View on the google map to get a sense of the close proximity to the Geary and Curran theaters. It would also explain the possible need to wipe down Stine's driver side door if Zodiac spoke to him on the the southwest corner of Mason & Geary near the theater and perhaps leaned against the door or door handle there.

Just my opinion but it's an image that kept running through my mind constantly when I stayed in a hotel a few blocks away and walked by that corner every day.

I was gathering up all the necessary items I needed to make a post on Cheri Jo Bates when I came across something that reminded me of Paul Stine. The item I was looking at provided an address and, while I knew Paul Stine's fare was in the vicinity of Mason and Geary, I do not recall ever seeing an actual address. This was the reason why I made the post above.

I did make an attempt to go over old posts both before and after I made my post above but finally just gave up. Instead, I went to Google maps and entered the address I came across. The address, 415 Geary, put me right at the corner of Mason and Geary. So, yes, I agree that 415 Geary was more than likely the location of pick up.

However, while it may be possible that the Zodiac took in a movie (certainly don't dispute that), would seeing a movie be more important or perhaps equally important to the simple act of being at a location that played a part in his fantasy?

You mention that Geary Theater was later renamed American Conservatory Theater. The name, Geary Theater, was not the first name this theater had. It was originally named "Columbia Theater" when it was built in 1909. The reason why the theater was named Columbia Theater was because, the original "Columbia Theater" on Powell, was destroyed in the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire that followed.

I am thinking that the original Columbia Theater on Powell was what was important to the Zodiac and, the Geary Theater, was just the next best thing. The Geary Theater was the only thing available for him to live out his fantasy.

So, what was so important about Columbia Theater on Powell?

Certainly something I would like to know.

Soze

[entropy]

Interesting history, Soze, but I guess I don't understand what the significance of Mason & Geary or the Columbia Theater would have in some sort of preplanned fantasy scenario. I've questioned before whether the Stine murder wasn't actually impulsive rather than pre-planned because of the seemingly bizarre itinerary of Z driving to the area near Washington & Cherry, taking some form of public transportation to Mason & Geary and then hailing a cab to return to his original location before walking at least several blocks back to his vehicle. It was awkward, unnecessarily complicated, invited eyewitnesses to get a good look at him at two different locations and very nearly resulted in his capture. Was it really necessary for him to hail a cab at Mason & Geary on a busy Saturday night or did he merely have other business (or entertainment) to attend to there? Rhetorical question, of course...

Here are a few old pics from Zkiller.com showing the proximity of 415 Geary (the Geary Theater) to the corner of Mason & Geary.





Edited to add:

Ran across this interesting post by Fools Gold on Mike B.'s ZKFacts site that pretty much echoes my previous post in picture form and shows the obvious fingerprints on the driver's side passenger door of Stine's cab. It also raises the question of Z's seemingly bizarre itinerary:

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/ ... f=21&t=362

[Soze]

After I made my latest post, I went digging further into "Columbia Theater" and a really funny thing came to light. Funny for me that is. You see, just recently I made a post regarding why the Zodiac chose Washington & Maple as an initial stop and referred back to it in his letter dated October 13, 1969.

The reason: The Russell-Haas house.

http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1110&start=30

In researching Leon B Russell and Madeleine Haas, I came across this website:

http://www.sfheritage.org/haas-lilienthal-house/

Towards the bottom of this page they discuss the architect for the Haas-Lillienthal House as being one Peter R Schmidt. Peter Schmidt was also the architect for the Stockwells Theater on Powell, later named, the Columbia Theater. What's funny for me is, I have known about Russell and Haas for years. I have had a copy of the Haas - Lilienthal article for as long. So its pretty darn funny that I have had this for so long and just now making the connection between the two. Don't understand how I missed it.

Anyway, its simply a connection. The area where Zodiac was picked up and, the location of his initial stop, have something in common. Perhaps this, commonality, was a reason for the change in attack site. Maybe the Zodiac thought leaving the crime scene at its original destination was just too much information. I really think this to be the case.

While i did not make the connection between the two until last night, there are quite a few little things like the above, that give an air to a "preplanned fantasy scenario". Enough to know that "Columbia Theater on Powell" would be something to consider and, as it turns out, it was.

Oh, and thanks for presenting the post by Fools Gold. I thoroughly enjoyed it and am surprised that I don't see any of their posts here. It was very good.

Soze