Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each

[Welsh Chappie]

Welsh Chappie, Subject: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:38 am

I think Zodiac may have been in a house either on Spruce st, Jackson st, or somewhere close that enabled him to see the activity. Officer Don Fouke admitted that after passing the man, he watched him go up some steps and to a front door to a house on Jackson st. Fouke said he did not see if the man went in or not, as he had turned the corner by then. Fouke said "I didn't write it in my report because i didn't think it was important because i did not believe the man lived there or had gone into the address."

I have always said, when you listen to te account's given by Fouke & Pelessetti, there are many gaping inconsistancies that do not make any sense and appear to contradict one another. Someone is apparantly being....elusive in bringing forth the truth shall we say. For example, Pelessetti said that the description was given as BMA (Black Male Adult) and that is not in dispute. He says that upon arrival at the scene, he saw the teens making a motion towards the cab and quickly ushered them back to the house for fear the suspect may still be on scene. He says that it was at this point that he had a brief conversation with the teen witnesses who told him that it was not a black male, but a white male. Pelessetti then says "I couldn't get to my radio fast enough, and i immediately gave the updated information over the radio to. So, keep in mind he had now given notice to all units that the suspect is not black, but white. He says he then made his way down Cherry st, turned onto Jackson, and walked down as far as Maple & Jackson, saw a man walking his dog, asked had he seen anything, was told no, and decided to return to the scene. He said that it was while he was walking back to the scene on Cherry st, that Fouke pulled up and did not mention stopping anyone. He says fouke said he had not seen any males fitting the description in the area, where upon Pelessetti reaffirmed what he had done on the radio 10/15 mins previous...the suspect was white.

So, given that Pelessetti says he was made aware straight away upon arrival at the scene that the suspect was white, and instantly broadcast the correction, how could Don Fouke still by under the impression that the suspect was Black? There was a window of time of (at a rough estimate/guess) of 10/15 mins from the time Pelessetti gave the correction, to Fouke arrivingn on the scene. So it seems that the suspect description was long ammended and corrected before Fouke approached Maple & Jackson intersection where e says the white male was.





Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:40 am

And given that Fouke said he was close to the scene at the time the radio gave the crime details, 2/3 blocks away, what took Fouke so long to get there? How could he, being so close to the scene when the dispatcher came over the radio with the alert, take 10/15 mins to get to a street around the corner. Because accoring to their account, Pelessetti was able to get to the scene, speak with the teens, update the suspect description, walk down Cherry st, onto Jackson st, proceed down Jackson st to the intersection of Jackson & Maple, converse with a dog walker, do a u turn, back up Jackson st, turn left back onto Cherry st, and be almost bk at the cab before Fouke arrived at the scene himself! If he was so close, what delayed him for so long to allow Pelessetti to go on a walkabout for 5/10 mins before Fouke got there? Was he actually, in fact, talking to a white male on Jackson st at the intersection of Jackson & Maple? Well if he was ten why didn't Pelessetti notice this as he claims to have been there talking to a man and his dog at that point? Then you have the fact that the description had been ammended straight away so if they did stop anyone (apparantly at the place Pelessetti was walking toward or stood at) then why didn't they arrest him knowing the suspect was now a white M? How could Pelessetti not see the patrol car on Jackson if it stopped anyone? If Fouke's car came up Jackson st and to the intersection of Jackson & Maple just shortly after Pelessetti had decided to turn and go back to the scene, then how come Pelessetti did not notice Zodiac there somehwere, as he apparantly seems to appear there when Fouke drives up the tat location seconds after Pelessetti had left it. Where was he when Pelessetti was at the intersection? If he was hiding, and seeing Pelessetti leave and go bk up Jackson st, and come out from cover only to be confronted by Foukes approaching patrol car, why didn't Fouke stop and demand the man stay where he is and draw his gun because Pelessetti had updated the description before he even left the scene to walk down Cherry and Jackson 10 mins previously. Something does not add up, they either saw something or someone that they don't want to admit because they may have recognised him, or there is another rason that is underlying this. Fouke deciding not to mention the fact that the suspect had gone up some steps to a front door because he deem'd it irrelevant is absolute crap IMO. How can you come to that conclusion? Why dash off to JK playground searching for hours and not at least decide that the house he was last seen approaching the front door of, is worth a search?
I have heard some suggest, even Pelessetti that Foukes denial of speaking to anyone is because he feared the reaction of his bosses for 'letting Zodiac walk away'. Well that has never had any weight or credibility as an argument because, according to Fouke, he was under the impression the suspect was Black when he came across him. So Fouke, if that was actually true, could just say "Yes i spoke to the white male that night, who at tat time was not even considered to be remotely linked to Zodiac, and i asked him a question, he replied and i proceeded on because we were told to BOTL for a Black male." Easy. Something is very wrong in this incident.

Does anyone see the point i am making here and why it appears not to apprear consistant on any level?




mike_r, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:03 pm

Hi-

Officer Fouke was apparently on a different channel that night than AP. When AP went to his car, he broadcast on, say, Channel One. Then a few minutes passed, Fouke passed the man and arrived at the corner of Cherry, and the description was re-broadcast on, say, Channel 3 as an APB, which is the one Fouke was on. So he didn't hear the broadcast until he had already passed the guy.

Either that or Fouke is, as some believe, lying through his teeth. It is just that nobody can prove that he is lying through his teeth.

Mike



Drew, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:14 pm

I guess I should know this, but was it Fouke who was driving that night and Zelms was in the passenger seat?



Nachtsider, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:33 pm

Yup, Fouke was the driver.



Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:28 am

Hi-

Officer Fouke was apparently on a different channel that night than AP. When AP went to his car, he broadcast on, say, Channel One. Then a few minutes passed, Fouke passed the man and arrived at the corner of Cherry, and the description was re-broadcast on, say, Channel 3 as an APB, which is the one Fouke was on. So he didn't hear the broadcast until he had already passed the guy.

Either that or Fouke is, as some believe, lying through his teeth. It is just that nobody can prove that he is lying through his teeth.

Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply. Is it standard procedure for Police in SF to use different radio frequencies?



Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:36 am

Actually i just watched Fouke describe the events of spotting Zodiac, and what he says happened. Quoting Fouke Directly "But you could sort of say he looked down, pheraps this lumbering gait, stumbling along like a semi-limp might have come up in my mind because he (Z) was putting his head down when he spotted the police car and turned into the entrance way of a house, by entrance way, i mean stairs leading up that are concrete, to a path that leads to a front door. Never saw him get to the top of the stairs. You want the address of that residence? **** (Bleeped out) Jackson Street". End Quote.

Fouke says this after being asked about stopping the man, and it seems he's tyring to dismiss the possibility of stopping him by saying that as he and Zealms approached the man, he turned into a house before they got to him, and they drove past. But he gives a specific address that is omitted (bleeped out) in the documentary on Jackson St. Zodiac never mentions in his letter that he approached a house and doubled back so i think its safe to assume that Z never did approach a house on Jackson, and that this story about Z approaching a house may have been invented by Fouke as a way to back up his assertion that he never spoke to the man by claiming that the man turned into a house before the got close enough to speak to him. Based on this, I take back my earlier assumption that Zodiac did turn into a house on Jackson st.

Its interesting to note that Fouke makes reference to the way the man appeared to walk, and that he appeared to have a lumbering/stumbling walking motion, or limp. The teens also, acording to Pelessetti said the man left the cab and appeared to be "Ambling" up Cherry st. If Zodiac did have a distorted walk, or severe limp that is easily noticable, then this IMO would render the Berryessa footprint evidence usless. The Berryessa attacker was said to weigh approx 230lbs based on the depth of the footprint impression. But if he had a severe limp, that by its very definition would mean the man transfered almost all his weight to one leg, and thus distort any accurate weight interpretation based on depth of a footprint.



mike_r, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:21 pm

Hi-

I don't know what police procedures are. I only know that there were channels for like Traffic, Downtown, Richmond, etc. Fouke was on one channel and AP was on the other. Therefore, Fouke had to wait until an APB was put out on ALL channels in order to hear the description change. At least that is what I was told a few years ago. Can't prove or disprove it.

Mike



Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:33 pm

Hi-

I don't know what police procedures are. I only know that there were channels for like Traffic, Downtown, Richmond, etc. Fouke was on one channel and AP was on the other. Therefore, Fouke had to wait until an APB was put out on ALL channels in order to hear the description change. At least that is what I was told a few years ago. Can't prove or disprove it.

Mike

Ok thank you Mike. That still doesn't answer how and why AP was able to arrive on scene, walk down Cherry st, turn onto Jackson st and walk down as far as the Jackson & Maple intersection, see nothing, turn and walk back up jackson, and be on Cherry st again before Fouke arrived considering Fouke said when the call came over the radio of a cab driver being robbed and possibly assaulted, he was one street away and instantly turned onto Jackson St seconds after the broadcast was made. How could he have turned onto Jackson so soon and not seen AP either before he had chance to walk to down Cherry onto Jackson, or not seen him whilst AP was actually on Jackson. And again, if Fouke, as he states, saw a white male as he approached the intersection of Jackson & Maple, then how come AP didn't see this same man as this man would have had to have walked past AP as AP was making his way back up Jackson st?



mike_r, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:07 pm

Hi-

I don't think AP did all that walking back to Cherry. He ran into Fouke as he (AP) walked up Cherry to Jackson and before AP got to the corner of Cherry and Jackson. What you related may be one version of his story but I'm sure there are many versions of it depending on who you talk to.

Mike



Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:30 pm

No this is from DF and AP's own words. Fouke said, quote "We were patroling the Eastern side of the Richmond district, going North-bound on Presidio Avenue. We had passed Washington St when a broadcast came in of a shooting at Cherry & Washington St".

AP said that, Quote "The kids had said that whoever did this had left the cab, went out the door, seemed to be wiping down the cab, reaching into the cab, and then ambling or walking away down Cherry st in a Northerly direction. I then walked that way myself, i did not run because there were many alcoves and parked cars and following every technique i knew trying not to get my head blown off, got down to the corner of Jackson Street. Had to make a choice and decided to turn right and go East on Jackson st. I couldn't see anybody in either direction. I got all the way down to the next corner which was Maple St. I looked to the left toward the Presidio and saw nothing, and looked to the right and saw a man walking his dog. He was somewhat older looking that the description i had, a whole lot thinner, and i asked that gentleman had he seen anything and he told me 'No'. I figured that my chances of finding a suspect further on was zero, so ecide to head back to the cab. I was walking back on Cherry st and at that point Officer Don Fouke, who was accompanied by a rockie Officer who i believe was Eric Zealms, pulled up quite quickly in their patrol car and called out to me asking did i see anybody matching the suspect?"

That is Arnold Pellisetti's own words, and Fouke has not challenged this account.



Welsh Chappie, Subject: Re: Why do their account's of the events seem to contradict each other at every turn? Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:43 pm

So again, based on this version of events, it doesn't make sense in many respects.

A) Why did Fouke take so long to arrive on scene when he himself admits he had just passed Washington st when the call came in.
B) If Pellisetti had just walked down to the corner of J'son & Mple, and saw nothing other than a man walking his dog, then where was Zodiac? We know, based on this account, that Pellisetti was at J'son & Maple Minutes, if not seconds, before Fouke and Zealms. How could Pellisetti not have passed the Zodiac on his way back to Cherry st, if only seconds later behin him, Fouke and Zealms encounter him right where Pellisetti had just been? Who was the man with a dog? How didn't he witness Fouke and Zealms stop a white male at the Corner of J'son & Maple when he was there just minutes before Fouke?

Its not possible for Pellisetti to have walked down Jackson st, to the corner of Maple, and not seen Zodiac or passed him on the way, because seconds, maybe a minute later, Fouke comes driving up Jackson and sees Zodiac as he approached J'son & Maple, so Zodiac isn't further on down the street further on and past where Pellisetti had just been, he's in a location that would have meant it was impossible for Pellisetti and Zodiac not to have crossed paths a minute earlier.

[Welsh Chappie]

Many people are highly skeptical of Fouke's claim that the man he saw on Oct 11 really did turn and walk up steps toward the door of 3712 Jackson. The skepticism is very uderstandable because he did not mention this in his 1969 report,but simply states suspect was heading east on Jackson, before turning North on Maple. It isn't untill 38 years later that Fouke mentions the suspect appearing to turn into a driveway and head toward a house. I've been highly critical of Fouke myself at times but after looking at all the evidence and reports of that night, I think Fouke is telling the truth here and there does seem to be several things to support that notion.

Don Fouke said in his original report of the suspects descriptoion - "White Male. Age: 35-45. Height: 5' 10. Weight: 180-200lbs." But the most interesting observation he makes is "Light colored hair, possibly greying in rear". How could Fouke have seen the rear of this mans head to make such a remark? Fouke was going uphill on Jackson, suspect coming downhill on Jackson, so they were square on coming toward each other. The comment 'possibly greying in rear' does make sense in his original report now we know that the suspect, as soon as he spotted Fouke approaching, turned into the driveway, because this now would put the suspect's back to the officers in their patrol car as they passed. It's also logical to say that, assuming that was the Zodiac, he looked up, saw Fouke & Zelms approaching and slowing down, and to avoid having the officers see him or speak to him, he turned into the house driveway. I mean when you think of it, it seems strange why nobody had ever questioned Foukes original report that states suspect was last seen going 'North on Maple'. Well turning off Jackson North onto Maple would lead into the little trun area that has a gap in the trees to get through onto West Pacific and the Presidio, as seen in the pic below.

Maple Street Presidio entrance.jpg

Surely if Fouke saw the man heading off in that direction he'd have been highly suspicious? This little 'alcove' area is, as it happens, right next to 3712 Jackson, the property in which Fouke claims to have witnesses the man trun into

[mike_r]

When you are wondering in general if Z was in the area or if he had fled consider these two things: 1) Take a close look at what he describes in the 10/13 and 11/9 letters. Sounds. Things he heard. How could he have fled to Vallejo and heard the sounds of the search? 2) There really was no detailed description of the search of the park in the newspapers prior to the time Z sent the 10/13 letter.

Therefore, he had to be close by the area. Either that or he was a mad genius who fled to Vallejo and was then able to consciously decide to transform whatever mental vision he may have had of the search into a description of sounds that he had not heard.

The search was pretty extensive. If you were Z, would you have felt comfortable hanging out in someone's yard that night hoping you would not be caught after dodging a huge bullet (evading Fouke and Zelms) to make your escape--and then risking being caught all for the sake of some details for your letter, which were redundant since you already had Stine's shirt as proof you had done the crime? Seems he had a "safe haven" where he was hanging out that night listening to the search.

Mike

[Welsh Chappie]

Mike I totally agree with you, I think it is almost certain that Zodiac was somewhere close enough not only to hear the motorbike and fire trucks, but to also see the police cars and describe the distance between the 'two groups of parking'.

He wasn't in J. Kahn park, though in my opinion because Chief of SFPD Inspectors Martin Lee stated publically that they had the area detained and search the park using 7 blood-hound police K-9 units, flood lights, and a small army of police searching, to quote him direct "Tree by tree and bush by bush, Zodiac wasn't anywhere near that park". He also said "A mouse couldn't have escaped our attrention".

[Tahoe27]

I think Zodiac simply had a nice view from afar. This area makes sense considering Zodiac's description of LE locations--Zodiac mentioned motorcycle cops "going from south to north west":



Here would be his view from PRESIDIO Blvd/Ave. (had he been there) looking towards Maple (at the far top) and Julias Kahn playground to the right:



And the view from the backside of Maple towards Presidio Blvd/Ave which was was on top of the far hill:

[Welsh Chappie]

Well Zodiac seems to know too much about the coordinates of the search for it to simply be lucky guess after lucky guess so there are only two possibilities,

1. Zodiac was close enough to see it for himself.
2. Someone else he knew that lived in immediate area saw it and told him.

The second option isn't to imply that an this other person was an acomplice, although it's a possibility. Zodiac may have engaged his friend in conversation the day after about what had happened and asked about the search details. Remember there were people in the immediate vicinity that night, Armon Pelissetti saw a man with a dog right at the intersection of Maple & Jackson.

I wouldn't think option two is the more likely, but it's the only other way Zodiac could have know the details of the search effort without being present himself.

[mike_r]

Hi-

It is kind of confusing but I think the word is "barking," referring to dogs, not "parking" referring to cars. Three groups of barking dogs.
Once again, an auditory clue.
Mike

[Welsh Chappie]

It also makes sense that Zodiac would turn and start walking towards a house with his back to the Officers because he was absolutely soaked in Pauls blood. Zodiac probably saw the car approaching the intersection and realized that if the headlights hit him the reflection and colour of the huge amount of blood would become visable to the police.

[smithy]

Well Zodiac seems to know too much about the coordinates of the search for it to simply be lucky guess after lucky guess so there are only two possibilities,

1. Zodiac was close enough to see it for himself.
2. Someone else he knew that lived in immediate area saw it and told him.

3. He got the details from the police force, somehow.
?

[Welsh Chappie]

Yes true, that also would be another possibility.

The thing I can't get my head round about this whole incident is Fouke (and Zelms, but he's sadly deceased as if Jan 1970, so hasn't given interviews and statements like Fouke has). I really don't like being critical of the police in this case but in regards to what happened that night and the subsequent telling of events, it's impossible to ignore the inconsistancies.

I mean, Fouke see's a white male and decides he can't be the suspect as he's been told the suspect is Black. But Pelissetti says he updated the suspects description over the radio to that of a White Male long before Fouke encountered Zodiac, yet Fouke was unaware of the change.
When Fouke first spots this lone White Male, Fouke himself said "He was putting his head down when he spotted the police car, then turned into the entrance way of a house". This wouldn't seem suspicious? A shooting occurs 200 yards or so away, your approaching the scene and as you do a man is walking away from the direction of the crime, and as soon as he spots you he puts his head down not wanting to make eye contact, then turns into a driveway.

Armond Pelissetti says he thinks Fouke didn't come foreward to admit seeing (and he claims speaking) with the man as he realized who the man was 3 days later. But a report/scratch should have been made that night, October 11, detailing his encounter of with a White Male on Jackson st. At this point, the name 'Zodiac' wasn't even remotely attached to this shooting. Yet he still doesn't report that he has seen a possible suspect, which could offer useful evidence to the Homicide Detectives with Fouke as a witness. This encounter between Fouke & Z may never have made it into the public domain had it not been for Chief Inspector Martin Lee calling Zodiac everything from a clumsy criminal to a latent homosexual because it was while responding to these comments that Zodiac made the '2 cops pulled a goof' comment and let the cat out of the bag. So he comes foreward and offers a description and details by sending Homicide Division a memo. But even this memo is questionable. As Pellisetti point's out "Well, I believe Fouke would have been honest but, what he told me and what is in that scratch don't match" (Pellisetti claims that Fouke had told him that he'd stopped and spoken to the white male on Jackson st). And finally....

Fouke said that he didn't mention the suspect turning and going up steps,onto a drive and then heading toward a house because, quote "I didn't think he (the suspect) lived there". Now I can see why Fouke may have assumed that on the night, and making this assumption on the night I can see his reasons for doing. But, after you have cordened off the area and searched the park 'Tree by tree, bush by bush' and found nothing, wouldn't the house, and the possibility he really was in or around the house, become more of a concern. Then, a month later after Zodiac himself gives you detailed info on the search, thus suggesting he was close by but not in the park, i'd think the Jackson st house would be priority No. 1

I'm not suggesting that Zodiac did live there, or had friends or an accomplice living there. Although there was one thing that I learned about the owners that made me at least consider a connection. The man who lived there in 1969 was listed as having owed a textile and sewing business. Zodiac's elaborate costume and symbol at Berryessa sprang to mind and the words of Bryan Hartnell: "And it (the hood) had a crossed hairs symbol on the front,white, about 4 inches in diameter and looked like it had beenmade with some kind of machine, or with some degree of care, it wasn't just scrawled on".