The Witnesses
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:29 pmRe: The Witnesses
by Zamantha » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:51 pm
FYI:
A lot of the posts in the old history of this thread were made by James Dean. JDean was with the Vallejo Police Dept. And he was assigned the Zodiac Cold Case in the 70's. I've spoke to him via emails & some meetings. He is very knowable on the Z case. Mike R. has also spoke to him numerous times.
Most the posts with no posters name are by JDean whom interviewed the children at the Stine Scene & so much more research. I wanted to make everyone aware, regarding these informative posts by JDean. We were lucky to get him to come to our former site & share some of his information with us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I'm sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam's/Quote
, Subject: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:51 pm
Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:08 pm
Heres the link:
http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac2.pdf
Even if they showed a DOB or age, that may be helpful
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:38 am
What I think is this, there are rumours that a man was placed in the back of a car and was observed by the witnesses. Ages we can now see to be ,13, 14 and eight years old. I have also read that when the police arrived the kids were on the street trying to tell the police what they saw and were ushered back into the house.
In his first letter he describes LHR as the two teenagers. Darlene and Mike are described as the boy and girl. Kathleen Johns was described as woeman. Other than that he talks of killing couples. In the Stine letter which he must have written the following day, he talks of killing the kiddies, that school children make nice targets. Well the Stine witnesses were school children and eight years old is def a kiddie.
We have I think a few of scenarios. He phoned up the SFPD or knew someone within the police department and got the information (they did not know he was the Zodiac at this point) or he doubled back and saw the witnesses himself, therby hanging around the crime scene or he was the guy in the back of the car being seen by the witnesses and poss seeing them himself if that story is true.
I find it too much of a coincedence that immediately after this killing he is describing his witnesses in a letter. Also certain people can be ruled out as they were never suspects at this time and their photograph would not be shown.
If he was ruled out because of the fingerprints then that's not saying much as none of the crime scene fingerprints match each other and I do believe he was faking prints, and surely even if he had no criminal record if the eight year old id'd him then they would have printed him.
I think he potentially saw the witnesses or was told himself by the police/contacts within the police who the witnesses were and in the Stine letter he basically threatens them.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:47 am
Yeah Solar, even though it's speculative, I've also thought for while that the "kiddies" reference might well have been a thinly veiled threat. If not then it's another crazy Z coincidence.
Must have been scary to be a child eye-witness and then hear that the Z said he'd target kids next... and that he knows where you live!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:20 pm
I agree Rufus, speculating might just get a few different scenarios going. If he did backtrack then I believe he either had a car/van in the area, he was renting or he lived and I would have to say in the immediate vicinity.
He would be covered in blood, just how much is anyones guess. He would need to dump his gun/Stines shirt,wallet etc and change his clothes, all of them. If he only had a car that might be a tad difficult. Also to wash off the blood access to water so a house/apartment would be better. Change and then go to watch the crime scene unfold.
In order to do that and get back in time to poss see the kids still outside or glimpse the cops going into their house I reckon he couldn't be away from the scene longer than ten to fifteen minutes. I think we're looking at def within the Presidio heights area, mostly the first few streets. Running would probably attract attention. There were apparently quite a few people starting to gather around and watch (as happens) so he would just blend in as one of the curious. The cops wouldn't be expecting him to show up and watch. I wonder if there are any photos of the crowd, they would be most interesting.
Obviously this would bring into play the notorious Mr X, didn't he live in Pacific heights, and did he actually own a dog/actually have a dog with him. Marshall lived nearby also. I read a bit on Z.Com from Ed Neil about Hunter poss still owning a house on Jackson but renting it out.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:59 pm
, Subject: The kids Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:25 pm
I have talked to the Robbins kids extensively and they are a remarkable couple of kids. ...Some background... This is an upperclass neighborhood (Duh!) The Robbins father was (maybe still is) a renowned surgeon. At the time of the murder, the senior Robbins was about a block away attending a formal dinner at the Belgian Embassy. You can begin to get the status and education of the family. The kids (Lindsey and Rebecca were 16 and 13 Respectively) were having friends over for TV, Popcorn, games, etc. There was no alcohol as some have suggested.
As both Robbons kids were the oldest, their statements were the given the most weight. Also they were the least traumatized by the event. One of the kids (not sure which) noticed a cab parked outside (in that now famous spot) with the interior lights on. (I have to insert my personal experiences here.. In the late 60's the American cars were large and roomy. I drove an identical police car many years ago and can tell you the interior dome light was very bright. It was even brighter when you removed the opaque plastic lens that covered the bulb. We (police) did it so we could more easily read/write reports in the car, and I noted that cabs also removed these lens covers for the same reasons: to be able to read/write reports, trip tickets, make change for passengers, etc.
So when Lindsey told me that the light inside the car was like a spotlight, it was so bright... I knew what he meant (even though he didn't).
To continue...the first kid at the window sain the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he's stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place. (No shots were heard by anyone)
We know now that Z was cutting off a large piece of Stein's shirt with the knife.
At this time, lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the Police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Z pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North.
Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and beleiving the susp to be armed with only a knife) ran out his door to see where Z was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Z continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Palesetti, approached Lyndsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Palesetti asking questions, Lyndsey was trying to explain that the susp was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Palesetti got the point, they both looked and the Z was gone.
The assumption was Z continued North into Presidio Park and the resultant search extensively covered this area.
Palesetti followed a different path East on Jackson in the event Z had turned East. What happened next is for another story.
But, I want to tell you how the sketches came about. Within 48 hrs of the murder, Tochi had recruited a young uniformed cop named Juan Morales, who was said to be a good artist. He asked him to talk to the kids and see if he could work-up a composite of the susp. Morales sat down with all the kids and slowly developed the first sketch. Most of his input he took from the two oldest (L&R). Within a day or so, someone (not sure who) decided it was a bad idea to have multiple people contribute to a composite. So Morales sat down with the kids again and after a time, determined that Rebecca was the most artistically inclined, and the most observant of facial features. So, he did the final sketch from only Rebecca. When done, all the kids looked at it individually and agreed that was VERY close to the man they saw on that night.
I hope that helps somewhat in clearing up lots of speculation and rumor about the "eyewitnesses." This is the best info taken directly from the kids themselves, albiet, some 40 years later.
Both kids (L&R) are remarkable people. Rebecca is a fashon designer in S.F. (artistic eye) and Lyndsey is a successful building Contractor in Marin County.
They claim they don't often think about that night, but will never forget it.
P.S. Morales quit SFPD a few years later. From my best info, He went through a nasty divorce and moved to Mexico to get away from Alimony & child support. he is believed to still be in Mexico.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:43 pm
Thanks for posting the full story, jdean. It confirms several things I had heard about that night, which I had been previously unable to verify. Very enlightening stuff.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:55 pm
Thanks JDean for this post. I hope there will be more from you. As most of us here on this site, really want to hear and know the truth. (So, glad we found you,
I know there are other areas you will also be able to help us in. Looking forward to your posts.
Zincerely, your newest Z Pal, Zam*
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:06 pm
Great information. This clears up a number of things people have speculated about for decades. Thanks!
, Subject: Stein crime scene Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:45 pm
I have heard that story about the susp in the police car several times. When I asked the Robbins kids about that neither had been asked to ID anyone in a police car, nor were they taken from the house that night. As Solar Pons stated, SFPD had their hands full keeping the kids in the house. The Robbins father heard the sirens from his dinner about a block away and ran to the house to see if there was a problem there, only to find this horrific crime scene right across the street from his house, and his kids involved. He took charge of the kids and everything calmed down for the evening.
The fact that this rumor persists about the susp in a police car, suggests it may have happened, but not with the kids involvement.
I have confirmed from palesetti that he did indeed stop and ID Mr.X that night, two blocks from the killing. He said he did not consider him a viable susp for 4 reasons. It is still not clear if Mr. .X was placed in a police car or not that night.
1 Location: (PH resident out walking…not a likely robbery susp.—Still looking at robber, not Z case)
2 Appearance: Susp wouldn’t have had time to change bloody clothes before the contact. —Here we have a very gray area about time lines. I can expound on this later. He was stopped less than two blocks from his home.
3 Circumstances: Susp was walking his dog.
4. Motive: Again, being a wealthy resident of PH this guy would not be robbing some cabbie, plus you don’t mess around with PH residents, they have friends in high places… His words, not mine.
For what it is worth, Mr. X denies ever being stopped by SFPD that night.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:23 pm
Well, those are the most interesting posts to happen around here in awhile
Welcome JDean,
Very interesting on the interior light and the missing lens. One, it adds a lot of credibility to what the kids saw going on inside the cab, as we have long wondered how they could see things clearly. And two, if the light was on and doors closed then someone (presumably Stine) had time to twist the light switch on the far left of the dash, and it should have remained on until the police arrived unless Z turned it off and wiped the print after he went to the driver's side and opened the door. I don't recall reading that the interior light was on when the Pelissetti arrived.
Or perhaps the front passenger door was open while Z took the shirt piece?
BTW Mr. X was on the local news a few months back promoting the auto show at the Moscone Center and he did look terrific, sounded great as well.
mike_r, Subject: HI Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:47 pm
Hi-
This is the same man who said that his memory was not so good anymore at Jim's and my 2006 meeting with him, in which he could not recall being stopped by Pelissetti or getting small arms training in the military. Both of which did, in fact, occur according to the research Jim and I have done since 2006.
From interviews he has done since 2006, it is clear that his memory is just fine and he is in good health. We should all look so good if we live to his age! My father has early memory loss and Jim happened to have had to care for two people in his family who had Alzheimer's. So in 2006, Jim knew what it was like to be in the presence of someone with that problem and, in his opinion (which he can now voice personally here!), X was being deceptive, not failing to recall facts. X recently wrote a blog on the Net, for goodness sakes. Alzheimer's? I seriously doubt it.
Whatever his motive, his answers were not due to his memory being bad that day. And you'd think that a law abiding citizen would recall being stopped by the police and spoken to on the most famous night in the history of an otherwise boring neighborhood where the worst thing that usually happens in that Jacqueline Suzanne's domestic help takes up too many parking spaces on the street! Pelissetti sure remembers spekaing to X and wrote out his name (spelled correctly) in a letter to Jim in 2008!
But don't tell Dr. Larry that Mr. X's memory is fine. He seems to think X can't recall what he had to eat this morning. LOL!
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Posts Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:21 pm
Thank You so much for posting this info. Pellessetti always said he got there quickly, that was very quick. I wonder if Stine's front doors may have been locked and thus Z had to jump over the seat to get access to Stine? I'll never understand why Z would sit with Stine's head in his lap. You would think Z would enter from the driver's side push Stine towards the passenger side and then cut his shirt without getting so personally involved, esp. with Stine's head area. Look forward to hearing more from you....
, Subject: Reply to Bay Area60's Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:34 pm
You're absolutely right. I would not have taken Steins bloody head on my lap simply to cut of his shirt tail! It's tough trying to reconstruct the crime with only the details of Z's actions AFTER the shooting, and tougher to get inside his head for his unusual actions. We can only guess as to the, "WHY", but at least we have some detail as to the "HOW..."
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:43 pm
Thought I posted this earlier, but it's gone. ??
SP--regarding Zodiac knowing about the kids. Probably just read about them here:
SF Chronicle 10/12/69 --from another post from Bentley.
Never thought of his later remarks as a threat to them, but it makes perfect sense!
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:56 pm
I hate to say it, but Stine would have been dead weight. Moving him from where he was sitting wouldn't have been a simple task. Would make sense imo to hop in the passenger side and do what he needed to do and get out.
The steering wheel would have been in the way big-time.
bayarea60s, Subject: By Tahoe Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:06 pm
Tahoe...
I always figured that Z got out of cab opened driver's door and would just push Stine towards passenger side. You're right in that he obviously figured out for himself what his best approach would be. He sure wanted some of that shirt, badly. Could have just taken Stine's passenger log book for evidence and sent a page at a time. Bet Z wishes he had my 41 years of hindsight.
, Subject: Stine's body Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:19 pm
In a sort of related area, the question will eventually arise as to why was Z proping Stine up, anyway?
Just a guess, but we feel that Z was "setting a stage" in that, a cab with driver behind the wheel would not draw much attention as opposed to an empty cab, or worse, a limp body spotted in said cab.
So, unless there is a really sicker twist to Z, I'm thinking he was setting the scene to be as "normal" as possible, so as to ensure his stress-free walk from the scene without worry of nosey neighbors...Oops.!
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:29 pm
Interesting stuff for sure!
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:32 pm
JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine's killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
, Subject: 8-yr old Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:49 pm
Hi Tracers. My experience is only what I gleaned from the Robbins kids. They never mentioned any other kids that they are aware of, that were talked to seriously by LE.
The feds may have stepped in days later to scan for loose ends and talked to one of the other kids present, but I'm not aware of this.
Sorry.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:55 pm
Did the kids ever mention if they thought Z noticed them in the window? Maybe why he gave up the idea of leaving Stine in a sitting position? It has always amazed me with so many windows facing the street that no one else witnessed anything. Luck played a role in Z's favor there.
Do you know if that dinner Mr. Robbins went to was a big neighborhood thing, or just happened to be invited to a small size dinner? It kind of sounded like a big deal, but maybe wasn't at all.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:51 am
I just read the entire FBI file you refered to and as far as I can tell, it is a massive list of every dead-end lead that was developed in the few months after the stine killing, by both SFPD and the FBI, who seemed to be questioning their jurisdiction in the matter. I noted that each request for print comparison requested a palm print and each reply stated "no palm prints (PP's) on file." During that time only finget tips were taken when a person was arrested, unless there were unusual circumstances requiring palms. this suggests SFPD had a palm print which could not be matched, or was subsequently declared unreliable. Recent info indicates there are no viable prints in the Z case.
If there was any credence to the 8-yr old, I'm sure Voigt would have jumped on it a long time ago..!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:04 am
Thanks for the replies JD, so we can rule the man in the back of the car shpeel as garbage probably. Were the Robbins kids shown pictures at all, the FBI memo is dated 6th Nov so we can take from that that the eight year old, presumbly one of the other kids at the party was shown a line up and actually picked someone out.
Also I presumed there was a few minutes to work with in the Z getting away the time scale lends itself to Pellesetti meeting Fouke and Zelms almost as soon as he got there, armed with the info that this was a white man. After informing them of this they don't tell Pellesetti that they just saw one seconds earlier and left him to continue on around the block on his own.
If there was not enough time for anyone to get a good look at this guy it begs the question, who did the eight year old see? There would only be so many suspects at this time and someone was picked out. For the SFPD to mention it at all they must have lent some weight to it. He would be about fifty now I wonder if anyone has ever tried to find out what the other kids saw.
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:07 am
What...?
, Subject: Z Local..? Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:54 am
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z's description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z's letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought...
, Subject: Re: prints Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:13 am
To: "Nachtsider"
I should qualify the "non viable" prints remark. First, the cab prints have never been shown to my knowledge, to be from anyone other than a cab customer, or other innocent print. The story of bloody prints I believe refers to bloody prints probably left by Z, on or about the drivers door, they may be bloody, but they do not have any ridge pattern for forensic use. I base this on information from a Forensic worker familiar with the case, and a pecular lack of SFPD trying to eliminate anyone based on prints, for at at least 15 years. I also met with DOJ about two years ago and they said they had no prints, but they did have DNA. They may have DNA, but I don't believe it is viable. If you want a really technical discussion about DNA, I can refer you to a great source who would love to explain it in relation to this case.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
I personally think Z was NOT from that area, and he showed this by choosing that location. He got really lucky that night. If he was from that area, he would have known how populated it was there, and about all the windows. In the Paul Stine section here, I have made a thread called ANOTHER CABBIE MURDER. This cabbie, killed a few years after STine, I think may well have been a Zodiac victim! This time, Zodiac did everything right.
*Called the cab company and requested a cab sent to an address
*Cabbie got there, and no such address existed, but Z was there to signal to him that he needed a ride (we know this because the cabbie radioed this in)
*The road was a dead end street, less chances of witnesses or traffic
*cabbie shot in back of head
*no sign of robbery, no real motive
*After the shooting, attacker took off in a car.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
jd,
I've started a new thread to discuss the prints and other evidence so as not to take this one off topic:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... e-t208.htm
Carry on, guys.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:04 am
JD, I was also going to ask that about the info he gave he even specified to the north etc, where the police motorbikes /fire trucks etc. If the police were crawling all over the scene, police dogs especially should have sniffed someone out, not to mention personnel from the Presidio, where was he viewing this from. If you were hiding in amongst the foliage and trying not to get caught you are not going to see much at all. A lot of the houses along Jackson are quite elevated probably also houses on Pacific, there are probably others with a better view. I don't think we can rule out at all that he was staying with someone/renting/living nearby.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:09 pm
I believe there was another newspaper article that described the fire engines and dogs. I may be wrong..
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:32 pm
Great report jdean!!! Would like to see you get in touch with the Rayfield boy who saw Zodiac at Lake Berryessa. By the way if Zodiac was craddling the bloody dead body of Stine in the passenger seat doesnt this eliminate Mr. X if he was questioned that night or he would full of blood. This whole case would be solved if the police hadnt come as soon as the teenager was following zodiac down Cherry Street, he proably would have followed at a distance and been able to find out where he went or if he jumped into a car and gotten the license plates. Also Zodiac was very calm taking his time in the middle of San Francisco with a dead body. For those who say Zodiac stopped killing after Stine because he was afraid he was almost caught. I disagree Zodiac never showed in any of the murders that he was in a rush showing that he was a clever psychopath. Good worl Jdeanagain!!!!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:42 pm
Morf that may have been a zodiac killing as you say.............Solar if he did live there i doubt it would be someone else because dont you think that person when he heard of the zodiac murder the next day would have remembered that his friend came home about that time. Also wouldnt the sniffing dogs if he went into a building would have followed his scent to there but if he hopped into a car then the dogs would have come to a dead end in their search.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:51 am
I suppose it depends where they were using the dogs Salus, In his bomb letter he lists locations, like the dogs were to the West, motorbikes 150ft away going South to North West. If he got this info from the papers, would they have listed the locations of the dogs and the motorbikes. We can possibly try and work out where he could have been from those descriptions. But to be seeing 150 feet away and also watching for officers on the ground with the searchlights also active I reckon he would need a good vantage point. Begs the question where in the park was he supposed to be?
If he entered from Jackson or along Pacific or anywhere near Julius Khan (which being a kids play park would be hard to hide in) then with the locations he says he saw the dogs and vehicles from within the park, we can perhaps work out where he was. If not quite a few officers etc there that night reckon they had the park sewn up with the dogs and the spots and men on the ground so to have seen the exact locations of certain groups of searchers the only other place he could have been would have been a nearby house.
Staying over with someone is probably the least likely although it was Saturday night doesn't mean two people had to be in the same house together at the same time, also were there any vacant houses in order to hide within the grounds or if he was someone that worked/ lived on the base, would he get the positions correct. He seems quite sure of himself in naming the locations.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:56 am
If he lingered (which I don't think he did), Presidio employee/garrison member is my best bet.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:21 am
It's a good possibility Nacht he could have worked/ been on the base. With my limited knowledge of maps/orientation = sod all I'm going to look over the Presidio area to try and hedge a bet where he could have been. The results shall no doubt be dynamic and absoloutely spot on :lol!:
bayarea60s, Subject: The Dogs Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 am
Solar...
Z doesn't mention the dogs in his first letter, only until it was released in the press. I believe in a Nov. letter does he mention the dogs. I've always thought he was working at a residence in the area where he could hear the park noise but couldn't really see what was happening on the ground.
If was in the park and breathing the dogs would have nailed him. We're not talkin Central Park here.
Nin, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:10 am
If the search went on rather chaotically, say the dogs came in after LE officers were all over the park, it could have been very difficult for the dogs to find the perp.
I know dogs (especially trained ones) can smell fear/adrenalin and many other distinct odors caused by various emotions of a person. When we are in fear of something we sweat and dogs can smell that. Even if you are just a bit nervous, adrenalin pumps and the sniffer dog can detect that.
However, if the park was contaminated with a bunch of "excited" LE personnel all pumping adrenalin prior to the arrival of the dogs, the sniffers would have had a field day ..If the perp was say even disguised as a LE officer, heck, not even the chief sniffer of the sniffer dogs would have earned any credibility for possibly identifying a fellow policeman..Remember, they did not know they were hunting the Zodiac back then. They thought they were searching for a robber and cab killer, not a disguised high profile maniac.
-Nin
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:10 pm
I have been wondering about this for a long time...would the police really mobilize such a huge search for a cab robber ?
According to the police report; Several police officers/Lt.´s, two homicide inspectors, police motorbikes /fire trucks w/spotlights, seven dog units ect
They called the crime lab, coroner, Yellow Cab officials, "room 100" was notified (what is that?)
Officer Armond Pelissetti
Lt. Frank Peda
Homicide Inspector Dave Toschi
Homicide Inspector Bill Armstrong
Lt. Paul Kiel
Inspecror Kracke (Dog units)
"Other units were requested for an imidiate search of the area"
"Description was boadcast and several untits responded to intitute a search of the area"
Don Fouke
Eric Zelms
Others?
The military police headquarters of The Presidio was notified and participated in the search
Other CP and Richmand units
Deputy Schultz and Kindred
By the way the description of the suspect in the police report, dated Oct 12 6.29 AM was
"in his early fourties"! so the higher age was a fact already within the first 12 houres!
Police report page 1: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html
Police report page 2: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html
So was there somthing, from get go, that made LE suspect that it was a Zodiac murder???
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:21 pm
bayarea60s, Subject: Nin and Foreigner Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:36 pm
They knew they were looking for a murderer. I wouldn't think, mass or otherwise, would matter. They were told, and not based on anyone seeing Z, that perp went into Park. It was assumed that's where he went, maybe he did, and kept on going. He didn't stay in the park, this I've known since July 1970.
I was with my older brother who lived but blocks away from Stine scene and a good buddy of his from the service named Jimmy. Jimmy worked the K-9's in the military, did his time in Nam, etc. We were walking through the park talking about Z. Jimmy knew of the case but was from Va, Tenn, somewhere back there, so he was interested. When we told him Z's scenario of the events and how he hid in the park, and SFPD, along with Presidio had some 5-7 dogs in the park his reaction was, "No way, dude's blowin smoke".
He explained the process in detail with the dogs. He said first there's limited places to look within the park, that's where they would have taken the dogs, everyone clears out of the dogs way. If they had a scent tracker (something from Z) the dogs would have walked right up to him, period. If they didn't have that it would take the dogs a little while, but they'd find him out. Dog's don't miss. He then looked off towards the Bridge and felt the prevailing wind. Put his nose up in the air and said hell I could have probably smelled him out.
He said that there would be dogs there that would hit on blood, on gunpowder, all sorts of crime related stuff. He wanted to go over and find the kennels and speak with the dog handlers at the Presidio we just didn't have the time. But he said if it were a monkey up in the top of one of these trees the dogs would have hit on it.
I've always wanted to find some of those handlers that were on the scene and get their input.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:41 pm
I've often thought that TF for an unknown killer they had an awful lot of presence that night. Another thing that would be on him would be the smell of blood. Given that he may not have been saturated with it if he got some on him at all and he had a large section of Stine's shirt the dogs should have smelt the blood in the air. I know there were descriptions in the paper of the fire trucks etc but I found it strange that he gave locations.
Looked at Google maps today and I feel that if he was inside the park then he wouldn't have a clue where anything was. I tell you though a great view of the entrance to the Presidio and the J>Khan playground and Jackson street is from Hunters old property 2255 Lyon Street http://img714.imageshack.us/i/snapshot2 ... 73733.png/ to the left and behind about 2 or 3 houses is his property it sits perches right at the top of the hill. Great view from there, for someone that lived all around this area, even if he sat in a parked car from there. Get the bins out.
I seriously doubt he was in the park I really do think the dogs would have got him.
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm
I agree with that assessment. That's basically what Jimmy was sayin back in '70. No Way. And we didn't discuss Z sitting in a car outside the park watching. I would think as he went through the park to the car he would be leaving that blood/gunpowder sent behind and again dogs would walk right up to car.
There were many things happening in the park that night, but Z only mentions motorcicles. You can hear and see motorcicles from a distance. You probably wouldn't be able to see the dogs. He doesn't mention the dogs until Nov. '69 letter after that's been publicized in the news. So he didn't see any dogs that night, cause he wasn't close enough to the park to see them. If he were there he would certainly have mentioned them, they would pose a much greater threat to him than the cops.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:04 pm
I've got a couple of Springers BA great sniffer dogs, I've stood many a night outside and they stare at something off in the distance with the nose going, you can't budge them, great little hunters and they aren't trained. Trained dogs would be right on him, thats why I feel if he hung around at all to see anything it would be at a distance, they were crawling all over the Presidio by all accounts and even had the dogs go around the nearby blocks as well.
, Subject: Re: the witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:48 pm
My earlier post: "I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z's description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z's letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought..."
I put this post out there because Mr. X has a commanding view of the entire search area from his second story picture window overlooking the park and the area of Maple and Jackson. It also means he was just a few hundred yards on foot, from the crime scene, where a change of clothes and a dog leash would be only a short time frame.. This is where the time-line gets interesting...
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm
Very True. My dog freaks me out sometimes at night. We live in a heavily wooded area, I'll have her out on leash and she just stops has her nose in the air sniffin away and pointing her nose in a certain direction. I know she's picking up on something.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:44 pm
The initial letter from Z on 10/13/69, doesn't give any detail. He speaks of motorcicle races and cop cars that should have just parked and waited for him to come out of hiding. He speaks of no other knowledge of what went on.
He does in his Nov letter, but by then the local news media had told the whole story for him about their search efforts. He was just re-gurgitating what he, like all of us, had read & heard on the news. It was non-stop news on this guy, obviously.
He doesn't speak of Foukes encounter either, not until Nov.
Drew, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:40 pm
Jdean, I've really enjoyed reading about your unique insights into the Zodiac case, especially regarding the Stine case -- lots of valuable information. Do you recall if any of the young witnesses mentioned anything about Zodiac having an unusual gait or style of walking? I know Fouke mentioned this detail in his report, and a possible Z witness at Lake Berryessa made note of Z's awkward gait (if the person spotted was actually Zodiac). Thanks again for your contributions to the forum.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:21 am
I ditto Drew's sentiment here. There's nothing like getting a Bay Area LE input on this case. I wish more of you would come on board. But please keep posting, your input is so valuable here...
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:33 am
My first walk-through the park with my brother back in '69, I was amazed how many vantage points there are overlooking the park. Many times the rich folks go off on vacation and they have people watch their houses for them. Or he may have been doing work within a home for absent home owners and had access. Or he may have lived in the neighborhood, or had firends who did. So many possibilities, for me the least likely is what Z told us. I look at what he stated as more of his supporting his case that cops are too stupid and he's just too smart for them. Well we know that cops in search of a perp in a given area are not stupid, and with 5-7 dogs to aid them, well I just don't believe Z's version there. From above, inside a house, that I can see. I've never liked the car sitting scenario either. you know the lookey loo's had to be out in the neighborhood watching the cops activities. If Z was just sitting in a car someone may get suspicious of him and question what's that guy doing? Why won't he come out here like the rest of us. Just my thought....
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:54 am
I don't think the search encompassed more than the nearest blocks and the presidio (where they thought he actually went) here is a better link to the picture of the view near Hunters old digs http://sf.blockshopper.com/property/097 ... yon_street go to the googly view thing and pan around the house covered in netting is 2255 Lyon the entrance being on the other side on Lyon Street as you look downhill you can zoom in and see J.Khan playground/ Jackson and the areas of the park that he mentions. Click on the user pictures and you get the picture I first posted and can zoom in better. A great vantage point and also park/live/rent/stay over I doubt the police would send more than 1 guy at best up this far, and by all accounts once people started to come out and see what was happening change or peel off your clothes, watch mingle and then leave.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:11 am
Would Zodiac be able to see anything from the property that Fouke (eventually) said Zodiac walked up to?
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:28 am
Tahoe here is 3765 Jackson Hunters old house (lived around here a lot) it was roughly here I think the house next door that he was spied, they look like townhouses to me and I think the top floors would def overlook the areas viewed. On my other images I've pinpointed on maps some of Hunters digs. I'm not saying this was him with that just pointing them out. http://img339.imageshack.us/i/jacksonstreet3765.jpg/ according to Ed Neil who researched Hunters homes, Sandy may know as well, there may be a possibillity he rented this, Ed would probably know.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:45 am
Hi Bay Area,
you have a point there. I'd have to look over those dates to refresh my memory. Not sure exactly which details were revealed in the papers. It seemed to me, Z gave more detail than the papers submitted. Maybe he fabricated, Maybe he was there. Does anyone have the news account handy?
sandy betts, Subject: Stine crime scene Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:57 am
It is true that Ed N and I went to the Stine scene many times. How ever Ed wouldn't agree with my idea that the killer stayed close by, and watched everything from possibly one of those flats that over looked the park.
I never felt that he left a car near the scene to escape.
I spoke to a woman who lived in that area at that time, She told me that there were rooms that could be rented for a very short time. on Pacific Ave and on Jackson.
I was challenged by a few, who didn't check it out, but went on what they thought about my comment.
To prove what I had posted, I looked at the news paper to make sure it was true.
Sure enough there were adds for rooms to rent on those streets.
Remember that part of what the Z liked to do, was to watch the squad cars head for the crime scene. He did this when he phoned the police in Napa, and in Vallejo. Both times he was very close to the police dept or Sheriffs dept.
Ed even walked from the corner of Washington and Cherry towards Jackson to see just how many minutes he could do it in. It was thwarted because a dog started to go after him LOL.
Ed and I did a lot of investigating on Mr.X and Hunter.
We found that Hunter didn't live at the address on the corner of Washington and Cherry, after all. Ed felt that Stine's cab rolled from Maple to Cherry after Stine was shot. I again didn't think that could be what took place. I believe that the Z had planned on stopping at Maple, but felt that it was a bit too close to his true destination. He needed to throw the police off of the intended direction, so he asked to go one more block. It is still my contention that the wallet was taken because the killer looked just like Paul Stine. That the killer needed to use Stines ID for some other nefarious things he wanted to do. It wasn't for the money.
Something else that went through my head, was that the killer could have been in the other car a few days before, that Paul Stine hit with his cab. (I would like to read that report). That could have been when the killer saw just how much Stine looked like him, and was about the same age. It was then that he planned to kill the cab driver. I am just throwing some thoughts out there.
mike_r, Subject: WASH/MAPLE Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:05 am
Hi-
There is an old thread on the Net in which Ed lays out his excellent research on Hunter's house. It apparently shows that the owner had died in 1968 and that if the mansion was not empty in October 1969, it was being occupied by her former gardener or chauffeur (name: Schiantarelli), etc.! There was a servant's quarters attached to the home on Maple Street but by the edition of Polk's from 1970 that Ed looked at the name attached to the main house was of the help.
I believe that Z may have known the previous owner for a reason that may become apparent if you read through the thread and see one of the items she left to her servants in her will. I believe that it is likely she obtained that item from X. If that is the case, I believe that he may have know that the house was empty after her death and chose that intersection initially (Wash/Maple) for that reason and for the poor sight lines to the corner from two of the three other homes (other than Augsbury's old place, where Hunter would later live) there. And for its proximity to a "safe haven" in the neighborhood which is close to Wash/Maple then to Cherry.
To find the thread search on the address of Hunter's home.
Mike
by Zamantha » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:51 pm
FYI:
A lot of the posts in the old history of this thread were made by James Dean. JDean was with the Vallejo Police Dept. And he was assigned the Zodiac Cold Case in the 70's. I've spoke to him via emails & some meetings. He is very knowable on the Z case. Mike R. has also spoke to him numerous times.
Most the posts with no posters name are by JDean whom interviewed the children at the Stine Scene & so much more research. I wanted to make everyone aware, regarding these informative posts by JDean. We were lucky to get him to come to our former site & share some of his information with us.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I'm sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam's/Quote
, Subject: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:51 pm
Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:08 pm
Solar Pons wrote:Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
Heres the link:
http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac2.pdf
Even if they showed a DOB or age, that may be helpful
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:38 am
What I think is this, there are rumours that a man was placed in the back of a car and was observed by the witnesses. Ages we can now see to be ,13, 14 and eight years old. I have also read that when the police arrived the kids were on the street trying to tell the police what they saw and were ushered back into the house.
In his first letter he describes LHR as the two teenagers. Darlene and Mike are described as the boy and girl. Kathleen Johns was described as woeman. Other than that he talks of killing couples. In the Stine letter which he must have written the following day, he talks of killing the kiddies, that school children make nice targets. Well the Stine witnesses were school children and eight years old is def a kiddie.
We have I think a few of scenarios. He phoned up the SFPD or knew someone within the police department and got the information (they did not know he was the Zodiac at this point) or he doubled back and saw the witnesses himself, therby hanging around the crime scene or he was the guy in the back of the car being seen by the witnesses and poss seeing them himself if that story is true.
I find it too much of a coincedence that immediately after this killing he is describing his witnesses in a letter. Also certain people can be ruled out as they were never suspects at this time and their photograph would not be shown.
If he was ruled out because of the fingerprints then that's not saying much as none of the crime scene fingerprints match each other and I do believe he was faking prints, and surely even if he had no criminal record if the eight year old id'd him then they would have printed him.
I think he potentially saw the witnesses or was told himself by the police/contacts within the police who the witnesses were and in the Stine letter he basically threatens them.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:47 am
Yeah Solar, even though it's speculative, I've also thought for while that the "kiddies" reference might well have been a thinly veiled threat. If not then it's another crazy Z coincidence.
Must have been scary to be a child eye-witness and then hear that the Z said he'd target kids next... and that he knows where you live!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:20 pm
I agree Rufus, speculating might just get a few different scenarios going. If he did backtrack then I believe he either had a car/van in the area, he was renting or he lived and I would have to say in the immediate vicinity.
He would be covered in blood, just how much is anyones guess. He would need to dump his gun/Stines shirt,wallet etc and change his clothes, all of them. If he only had a car that might be a tad difficult. Also to wash off the blood access to water so a house/apartment would be better. Change and then go to watch the crime scene unfold.
In order to do that and get back in time to poss see the kids still outside or glimpse the cops going into their house I reckon he couldn't be away from the scene longer than ten to fifteen minutes. I think we're looking at def within the Presidio heights area, mostly the first few streets. Running would probably attract attention. There were apparently quite a few people starting to gather around and watch (as happens) so he would just blend in as one of the curious. The cops wouldn't be expecting him to show up and watch. I wonder if there are any photos of the crowd, they would be most interesting.
Obviously this would bring into play the notorious Mr X, didn't he live in Pacific heights, and did he actually own a dog/actually have a dog with him. Marshall lived nearby also. I read a bit on Z.Com from Ed Neil about Hunter poss still owning a house on Jackson but renting it out.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:59 pm
Well, based on the crime scene photos on the Fincher DVD disc2 doc, I'm still of the belief that Z wouldn't necessarily be covered with blood (when you freeze-frame it, it looks to me that Stine bled mostly into the passenger side floor-well, there is very little blood evident on the seat)... so Z could have returned quickly to blend in with the crowd and gain crime-scene/witness info.Solar Pons wrote:..... He would be covered in blood, just how much is anyones guess. ......
, Subject: The kids Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:25 pm
Solar Pons wrote:Glancing around the FBI files this afternoon something caught my eye. In File 2 page 15, it clearly states that an eight year old witness identified someone as being the possible Stine shooter.
They supply a list of 5 names for fingerprint comparison, and then add the bit about the eight year old at the end on page 15. It clearly has a name blanked out which looks rather small. Clearly this was one of the kids from across the street (I presume). I wonder who he identified and when, and I wonder if it was dismissed because of his age.
I have talked to the Robbins kids extensively and they are a remarkable couple of kids. ...Some background... This is an upperclass neighborhood (Duh!) The Robbins father was (maybe still is) a renowned surgeon. At the time of the murder, the senior Robbins was about a block away attending a formal dinner at the Belgian Embassy. You can begin to get the status and education of the family. The kids (Lindsey and Rebecca were 16 and 13 Respectively) were having friends over for TV, Popcorn, games, etc. There was no alcohol as some have suggested.
As both Robbons kids were the oldest, their statements were the given the most weight. Also they were the least traumatized by the event. One of the kids (not sure which) noticed a cab parked outside (in that now famous spot) with the interior lights on. (I have to insert my personal experiences here.. In the late 60's the American cars were large and roomy. I drove an identical police car many years ago and can tell you the interior dome light was very bright. It was even brighter when you removed the opaque plastic lens that covered the bulb. We (police) did it so we could more easily read/write reports in the car, and I noted that cabs also removed these lens covers for the same reasons: to be able to read/write reports, trip tickets, make change for passengers, etc.
So when Lindsey told me that the light inside the car was like a spotlight, it was so bright... I knew what he meant (even though he didn't).
To continue...the first kid at the window sain the driver looked "sick, or something". Lindsey and Rebecca went to the window and saw the driver laying across the front seat, head toward the passenger door. His head was in the lap of another man (passenger). Rebecca saw blood and said out loud, "he's stabbing that man." She was seeing blood on the victim and saw the glint of a knife, so she assumed a stabbing was taking place. (No shots were heard by anyone)
We know now that Z was cutting off a large piece of Stein's shirt with the knife.
At this time, lindsey went downstairs to get a better look at what was happening, while one of the kids upstairs called the Police. Downstairs, the lights were off, so Lindsey knew he could not be seen from the outside. He got close to the window and watched his actions. He was shortly joined by Rebecca. They both watched and observed in silence as Z pushed the driver to an upright position behind the steering wheel, exited the car and walked around the rear of the car and opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North.
Not many know this, but Lindsey (being 16. feeling immortal, and beleiving the susp to be armed with only a knife) ran out his door to see where Z was going. He ran to the corner of Cherry and watched as Z continued his casual pace right up to the corner of Jackson & Cherry.
At this exact point, the first SFPD car arrives with two officers. One, Palesetti, approached Lyndsey and tried to extract what was happening. The other officer went to the cab and found the bloody victim. While Palesetti asking questions, Lyndsey was trying to explain that the susp was in sight on Cherry St. By the time Palesetti got the point, they both looked and the Z was gone.
The assumption was Z continued North into Presidio Park and the resultant search extensively covered this area.
Palesetti followed a different path East on Jackson in the event Z had turned East. What happened next is for another story.
But, I want to tell you how the sketches came about. Within 48 hrs of the murder, Tochi had recruited a young uniformed cop named Juan Morales, who was said to be a good artist. He asked him to talk to the kids and see if he could work-up a composite of the susp. Morales sat down with all the kids and slowly developed the first sketch. Most of his input he took from the two oldest (L&R). Within a day or so, someone (not sure who) decided it was a bad idea to have multiple people contribute to a composite. So Morales sat down with the kids again and after a time, determined that Rebecca was the most artistically inclined, and the most observant of facial features. So, he did the final sketch from only Rebecca. When done, all the kids looked at it individually and agreed that was VERY close to the man they saw on that night.
I hope that helps somewhat in clearing up lots of speculation and rumor about the "eyewitnesses." This is the best info taken directly from the kids themselves, albiet, some 40 years later.
Both kids (L&R) are remarkable people. Rebecca is a fashon designer in S.F. (artistic eye) and Lyndsey is a successful building Contractor in Marin County.
They claim they don't often think about that night, but will never forget it.
P.S. Morales quit SFPD a few years later. From my best info, He went through a nasty divorce and moved to Mexico to get away from Alimony & child support. he is believed to still be in Mexico.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:43 pm
Thanks for posting the full story, jdean. It confirms several things I had heard about that night, which I had been previously unable to verify. Very enlightening stuff.
Zamantha, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:55 pm
Nachtsider wrote:Thanks for posting the full story, jdean. It confirms several things I had heard about that night, which I had been previously unable to verify. Very enlightening stuff.
Thanks JDean for this post. I hope there will be more from you. As most of us here on this site, really want to hear and know the truth. (So, glad we found you,
I know there are other areas you will also be able to help us in. Looking forward to your posts.
Zincerely, your newest Z Pal, Zam*
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:06 pm
Great information. This clears up a number of things people have speculated about for decades. Thanks!
, Subject: Stein crime scene Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:45 pm
Solar Pons wrote:What I think is this, there are rumours that a man was placed in the back of a car and was observed by the witnesses. Ages we can now see to be ,13, 14 and eight years old. I have also read that when the police arrived the kids were on the street trying to tell the police what they saw and were ushered back into the house.
I have heard that story about the susp in the police car several times. When I asked the Robbins kids about that neither had been asked to ID anyone in a police car, nor were they taken from the house that night. As Solar Pons stated, SFPD had their hands full keeping the kids in the house. The Robbins father heard the sirens from his dinner about a block away and ran to the house to see if there was a problem there, only to find this horrific crime scene right across the street from his house, and his kids involved. He took charge of the kids and everything calmed down for the evening.
The fact that this rumor persists about the susp in a police car, suggests it may have happened, but not with the kids involvement.
I have confirmed from palesetti that he did indeed stop and ID Mr.X that night, two blocks from the killing. He said he did not consider him a viable susp for 4 reasons. It is still not clear if Mr. .X was placed in a police car or not that night.
1 Location: (PH resident out walking…not a likely robbery susp.—Still looking at robber, not Z case)
2 Appearance: Susp wouldn’t have had time to change bloody clothes before the contact. —Here we have a very gray area about time lines. I can expound on this later. He was stopped less than two blocks from his home.
3 Circumstances: Susp was walking his dog.
4. Motive: Again, being a wealthy resident of PH this guy would not be robbing some cabbie, plus you don’t mess around with PH residents, they have friends in high places… His words, not mine.
For what it is worth, Mr. X denies ever being stopped by SFPD that night.
bentley, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:23 pm
Well, those are the most interesting posts to happen around here in awhile
Welcome JDean,
Very interesting on the interior light and the missing lens. One, it adds a lot of credibility to what the kids saw going on inside the cab, as we have long wondered how they could see things clearly. And two, if the light was on and doors closed then someone (presumably Stine) had time to twist the light switch on the far left of the dash, and it should have remained on until the police arrived unless Z turned it off and wiped the print after he went to the driver's side and opened the door. I don't recall reading that the interior light was on when the Pelissetti arrived.
Or perhaps the front passenger door was open while Z took the shirt piece?
BTW Mr. X was on the local news a few months back promoting the auto show at the Moscone Center and he did look terrific, sounded great as well.
mike_r, Subject: HI Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:47 pm
Hi-
This is the same man who said that his memory was not so good anymore at Jim's and my 2006 meeting with him, in which he could not recall being stopped by Pelissetti or getting small arms training in the military. Both of which did, in fact, occur according to the research Jim and I have done since 2006.
From interviews he has done since 2006, it is clear that his memory is just fine and he is in good health. We should all look so good if we live to his age! My father has early memory loss and Jim happened to have had to care for two people in his family who had Alzheimer's. So in 2006, Jim knew what it was like to be in the presence of someone with that problem and, in his opinion (which he can now voice personally here!), X was being deceptive, not failing to recall facts. X recently wrote a blog on the Net, for goodness sakes. Alzheimer's? I seriously doubt it.
Whatever his motive, his answers were not due to his memory being bad that day. And you'd think that a law abiding citizen would recall being stopped by the police and spoken to on the most famous night in the history of an otherwise boring neighborhood where the worst thing that usually happens in that Jacqueline Suzanne's domestic help takes up too many parking spaces on the street! Pelissetti sure remembers spekaing to X and wrote out his name (spelled correctly) in a letter to Jim in 2008!
But don't tell Dr. Larry that Mr. X's memory is fine. He seems to think X can't recall what he had to eat this morning. LOL!
Mike
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Posts Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:21 pm
Thank You so much for posting this info. Pellessetti always said he got there quickly, that was very quick. I wonder if Stine's front doors may have been locked and thus Z had to jump over the seat to get access to Stine? I'll never understand why Z would sit with Stine's head in his lap. You would think Z would enter from the driver's side push Stine towards the passenger side and then cut his shirt without getting so personally involved, esp. with Stine's head area. Look forward to hearing more from you....
, Subject: Reply to Bay Area60's Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:34 pm
You're absolutely right. I would not have taken Steins bloody head on my lap simply to cut of his shirt tail! It's tough trying to reconstruct the crime with only the details of Z's actions AFTER the shooting, and tougher to get inside his head for his unusual actions. We can only guess as to the, "WHY", but at least we have some detail as to the "HOW..."
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:43 pm
Thought I posted this earlier, but it's gone. ??
SP--regarding Zodiac knowing about the kids. Probably just read about them here:
SF Chronicle 10/12/69 --from another post from Bentley.
Never thought of his later remarks as a threat to them, but it makes perfect sense!
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:56 pm
bayarea60s wrote:I'll never understand why Z would sit with Stine's head in his lap. You would think Z would enter from the driver's side push Stine towards the passenger side and then cut his shirt without getting so personally involved, esp. with Stine's head area.
I hate to say it, but Stine would have been dead weight. Moving him from where he was sitting wouldn't have been a simple task. Would make sense imo to hop in the passenger side and do what he needed to do and get out.
The steering wheel would have been in the way big-time.
bayarea60s, Subject: By Tahoe Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:06 pm
Tahoe...
I always figured that Z got out of cab opened driver's door and would just push Stine towards passenger side. You're right in that he obviously figured out for himself what his best approach would be. He sure wanted some of that shirt, badly. Could have just taken Stine's passenger log book for evidence and sent a page at a time. Bet Z wishes he had my 41 years of hindsight.
, Subject: Stine's body Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:19 pm
bayarea60s wrote:Tahoe...
I always figured that Z got out of cab opened driver's door and would just push Stine towards passenger side. You're right in that he obviously figured out for himself what his best approach would be. He sure wanted some of that shirt, badly. Could have just taken Stine's passenger log book for evidence and sent a page at a time. Bet Z wishes he had my 41 years of hindsight.
In a sort of related area, the question will eventually arise as to why was Z proping Stine up, anyway?
Just a guess, but we feel that Z was "setting a stage" in that, a cab with driver behind the wheel would not draw much attention as opposed to an empty cab, or worse, a limp body spotted in said cab.
So, unless there is a really sicker twist to Z, I'm thinking he was setting the scene to be as "normal" as possible, so as to ensure his stress-free walk from the scene without worry of nosey neighbors...Oops.!
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:29 pm
Interesting stuff for sure!
tracers, Subject: Re: The witnesses Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:32 pm
JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine's killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
, Subject: 8-yr old Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:49 pm
tracers wrote:JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine's killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
Hi Tracers. My experience is only what I gleaned from the Robbins kids. They never mentioned any other kids that they are aware of, that were talked to seriously by LE.
The feds may have stepped in days later to scan for loose ends and talked to one of the other kids present, but I'm not aware of this.
Sorry.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:55 pm
Did the kids ever mention if they thought Z noticed them in the window? Maybe why he gave up the idea of leaving Stine in a sitting position? It has always amazed me with so many windows facing the street that no one else witnessed anything. Luck played a role in Z's favor there.
Do you know if that dinner Mr. Robbins went to was a big neighborhood thing, or just happened to be invited to a small size dinner? It kind of sounded like a big deal, but maybe wasn't at all.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:51 am
tracers wrote:JDean, the FBI files say that the 8 year old at some point told LE that Stine's killer looked like a specific person, but the F.B.I. redacted the name of the person the eight year old named. Would you know who this person was?
I just read the entire FBI file you refered to and as far as I can tell, it is a massive list of every dead-end lead that was developed in the few months after the stine killing, by both SFPD and the FBI, who seemed to be questioning their jurisdiction in the matter. I noted that each request for print comparison requested a palm print and each reply stated "no palm prints (PP's) on file." During that time only finget tips were taken when a person was arrested, unless there were unusual circumstances requiring palms. this suggests SFPD had a palm print which could not be matched, or was subsequently declared unreliable. Recent info indicates there are no viable prints in the Z case.
If there was any credence to the 8-yr old, I'm sure Voigt would have jumped on it a long time ago..!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:04 am
Thanks for the replies JD, so we can rule the man in the back of the car shpeel as garbage probably. Were the Robbins kids shown pictures at all, the FBI memo is dated 6th Nov so we can take from that that the eight year old, presumbly one of the other kids at the party was shown a line up and actually picked someone out.
Also I presumed there was a few minutes to work with in the Z getting away the time scale lends itself to Pellesetti meeting Fouke and Zelms almost as soon as he got there, armed with the info that this was a white man. After informing them of this they don't tell Pellesetti that they just saw one seconds earlier and left him to continue on around the block on his own.
If there was not enough time for anyone to get a good look at this guy it begs the question, who did the eight year old see? There would only be so many suspects at this time and someone was picked out. For the SFPD to mention it at all they must have lent some weight to it. He would be about fifty now I wonder if anyone has ever tried to find out what the other kids saw.
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:07 am
jdean327 wrote:Recent info indicates there are no viable prints in the Z case.
What...?
, Subject: Z Local..? Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:54 am
Cheers Tahoe for the report. I feel the part about the kids and the school bus was a definite threat. For it to be in the chronicle on the day that he wrote the letter and included the shirt and it was postmarked San Fran also, there is a good possibility he was either working there or lived in the city. It is a very quick response he gives.
I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z's description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z's letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought...
, Subject: Re: prints Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:13 am
To: "Nachtsider"
I should qualify the "non viable" prints remark. First, the cab prints have never been shown to my knowledge, to be from anyone other than a cab customer, or other innocent print. The story of bloody prints I believe refers to bloody prints probably left by Z, on or about the drivers door, they may be bloody, but they do not have any ridge pattern for forensic use. I base this on information from a Forensic worker familiar with the case, and a pecular lack of SFPD trying to eliminate anyone based on prints, for at at least 15 years. I also met with DOJ about two years ago and they said they had no prints, but they did have DNA. They may have DNA, but I don't believe it is viable. If you want a really technical discussion about DNA, I can refer you to a great source who would love to explain it in relation to this case.
morf13, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
bayarea60s wrote: It has always amazed me with so many windows facing the street that no one else witnessed anything. Luck played a role in Z's favor there.
I personally think Z was NOT from that area, and he showed this by choosing that location. He got really lucky that night. If he was from that area, he would have known how populated it was there, and about all the windows. In the Paul Stine section here, I have made a thread called ANOTHER CABBIE MURDER. This cabbie, killed a few years after STine, I think may well have been a Zodiac victim! This time, Zodiac did everything right.
*Called the cab company and requested a cab sent to an address
*Cabbie got there, and no such address existed, but Z was there to signal to him that he needed a ride (we know this because the cabbie radioed this in)
*The road was a dead end street, less chances of witnesses or traffic
*cabbie shot in back of head
*no sign of robbery, no real motive
*After the shooting, attacker took off in a car.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:40 am
jd,
I've started a new thread to discuss the prints and other evidence so as not to take this one off topic:
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... e-t208.htm
Carry on, guys.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:04 am
JD, I was also going to ask that about the info he gave he even specified to the north etc, where the police motorbikes /fire trucks etc. If the police were crawling all over the scene, police dogs especially should have sniffed someone out, not to mention personnel from the Presidio, where was he viewing this from. If you were hiding in amongst the foliage and trying not to get caught you are not going to see much at all. A lot of the houses along Jackson are quite elevated probably also houses on Pacific, there are probably others with a better view. I don't think we can rule out at all that he was staying with someone/renting/living nearby.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:09 pm
I believe there was another newspaper article that described the fire engines and dogs. I may be wrong..
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:32 pm
Great report jdean!!! Would like to see you get in touch with the Rayfield boy who saw Zodiac at Lake Berryessa. By the way if Zodiac was craddling the bloody dead body of Stine in the passenger seat doesnt this eliminate Mr. X if he was questioned that night or he would full of blood. This whole case would be solved if the police hadnt come as soon as the teenager was following zodiac down Cherry Street, he proably would have followed at a distance and been able to find out where he went or if he jumped into a car and gotten the license plates. Also Zodiac was very calm taking his time in the middle of San Francisco with a dead body. For those who say Zodiac stopped killing after Stine because he was afraid he was almost caught. I disagree Zodiac never showed in any of the murders that he was in a rush showing that he was a clever psychopath. Good worl Jdeanagain!!!!
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:42 pm
Morf that may have been a zodiac killing as you say.............Solar if he did live there i doubt it would be someone else because dont you think that person when he heard of the zodiac murder the next day would have remembered that his friend came home about that time. Also wouldnt the sniffing dogs if he went into a building would have followed his scent to there but if he hopped into a car then the dogs would have come to a dead end in their search.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:51 am
I suppose it depends where they were using the dogs Salus, In his bomb letter he lists locations, like the dogs were to the West, motorbikes 150ft away going South to North West. If he got this info from the papers, would they have listed the locations of the dogs and the motorbikes. We can possibly try and work out where he could have been from those descriptions. But to be seeing 150 feet away and also watching for officers on the ground with the searchlights also active I reckon he would need a good vantage point. Begs the question where in the park was he supposed to be?
If he entered from Jackson or along Pacific or anywhere near Julius Khan (which being a kids play park would be hard to hide in) then with the locations he says he saw the dogs and vehicles from within the park, we can perhaps work out where he was. If not quite a few officers etc there that night reckon they had the park sewn up with the dogs and the spots and men on the ground so to have seen the exact locations of certain groups of searchers the only other place he could have been would have been a nearby house.
Staying over with someone is probably the least likely although it was Saturday night doesn't mean two people had to be in the same house together at the same time, also were there any vacant houses in order to hide within the grounds or if he was someone that worked/ lived on the base, would he get the positions correct. He seems quite sure of himself in naming the locations.
Nachtsider, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:56 am
If he lingered (which I don't think he did), Presidio employee/garrison member is my best bet.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:21 am
It's a good possibility Nacht he could have worked/ been on the base. With my limited knowledge of maps/orientation = sod all
I'm going to look over the Presidio area to try and hedge a bet where he could have been. The results shall no doubt be dynamic and absoloutely spot on :lol!:bayarea60s, Subject: The Dogs Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:08 am
Solar...
Z doesn't mention the dogs in his first letter, only until it was released in the press. I believe in a Nov. letter does he mention the dogs. I've always thought he was working at a residence in the area where he could hear the park noise but couldn't really see what was happening on the ground.
If was in the park and breathing the dogs would have nailed him. We're not talkin Central Park here.
Nin, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:10 am
bayarea60s wrote:..
If was in the park and breathing the dogs would have nailed him. We're not talkin Central Park here.
If the search went on rather chaotically, say the dogs came in after LE officers were all over the park, it could have been very difficult for the dogs to find the perp.
I know dogs (especially trained ones) can smell fear/adrenalin and many other distinct odors caused by various emotions of a person. When we are in fear of something we sweat and dogs can smell that. Even if you are just a bit nervous, adrenalin pumps and the sniffer dog can detect that.
However, if the park was contaminated with a bunch of "excited" LE personnel all pumping adrenalin prior to the arrival of the dogs, the sniffers would have had a field day ..If the perp was say even disguised as a LE officer, heck, not even the chief sniffer of the sniffer dogs would have earned any credibility for possibly identifying a fellow policeman..Remember, they did not know they were hunting the Zodiac back then. They thought they were searching for a robber and cab killer, not a disguised high profile maniac.
-Nin
Theforeigner, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:10 pm
Remember, they did not know they were hunting the Zodiac back then. They thought they were searching for a robber and cab killer, not a disguised high profile maniac.
I have been wondering about this for a long time...would the police really mobilize such a huge search for a cab robber ?
According to the police report; Several police officers/Lt.´s, two homicide inspectors, police motorbikes /fire trucks w/spotlights, seven dog units ect
They called the crime lab, coroner, Yellow Cab officials, "room 100" was notified (what is that?)
Officer Armond Pelissetti
Lt. Frank Peda
Homicide Inspector Dave Toschi
Homicide Inspector Bill Armstrong
Lt. Paul Kiel
Inspecror Kracke (Dog units)
"Other units were requested for an imidiate search of the area"
"Description was boadcast and several untits responded to intitute a search of the area"
Don Fouke
Eric Zelms
Others?
The military police headquarters of The Presidio was notified and participated in the search
Other CP and Richmand units
Deputy Schultz and Kindred
By the way the description of the suspect in the police report, dated Oct 12 6.29 AM was
"in his early fourties"! so the higher age was a fact already within the first 12 houres!
Police report page 1: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html
Police report page 2: http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html
So was there somthing, from get go, that made LE suspect that it was a Zodiac murder???
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:21 pm
The report was changed to homicide with officer Pelisetti's arrival on the scene, so the search wasn't for a 'cab robber'.And the killing of a cabbie in a prestigious area would warrant substantial LE attention. Reports of the perpetrator absconding on foot into the Presidio no doubt made for a more dramatic search than usual.Theforeigner wrote:I have been wondering about this for a long time...would the police really mobilize such a huge search for a cab robber ? ............... So was there somthing, from get go, that made LE suspect that it was a Zodiac murder??? ....
bayarea60s, Subject: Nin and Foreigner Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:36 pm
They knew they were looking for a murderer. I wouldn't think, mass or otherwise, would matter. They were told, and not based on anyone seeing Z, that perp went into Park. It was assumed that's where he went, maybe he did, and kept on going. He didn't stay in the park, this I've known since July 1970.
I was with my older brother who lived but blocks away from Stine scene and a good buddy of his from the service named Jimmy. Jimmy worked the K-9's in the military, did his time in Nam, etc. We were walking through the park talking about Z. Jimmy knew of the case but was from Va, Tenn, somewhere back there, so he was interested. When we told him Z's scenario of the events and how he hid in the park, and SFPD, along with Presidio had some 5-7 dogs in the park his reaction was, "No way, dude's blowin smoke".
He explained the process in detail with the dogs. He said first there's limited places to look within the park, that's where they would have taken the dogs, everyone clears out of the dogs way. If they had a scent tracker (something from Z) the dogs would have walked right up to him, period. If they didn't have that it would take the dogs a little while, but they'd find him out. Dog's don't miss. He then looked off towards the Bridge and felt the prevailing wind. Put his nose up in the air and said hell I could have probably smelled him out.
He said that there would be dogs there that would hit on blood, on gunpowder, all sorts of crime related stuff. He wanted to go over and find the kennels and speak with the dog handlers at the Presidio we just didn't have the time. But he said if it were a monkey up in the top of one of these trees the dogs would have hit on it.
I've always wanted to find some of those handlers that were on the scene and get their input.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:41 pm
I've often thought that TF for an unknown killer they had an awful lot of presence that night. Another thing that would be on him would be the smell of blood. Given that he may not have been saturated with it if he got some on him at all and he had a large section of Stine's shirt the dogs should have smelt the blood in the air. I know there were descriptions in the paper of the fire trucks etc but I found it strange that he gave locations.
Looked at Google maps today and I feel that if he was inside the park then he wouldn't have a clue where anything was. I tell you though a great view of the entrance to the Presidio and the J>Khan playground and Jackson street is from Hunters old property 2255 Lyon Street http://img714.imageshack.us/i/snapshot2 ... 73733.png/ to the left and behind about 2 or 3 houses is his property it sits perches right at the top of the hill. Great view from there, for someone that lived all around this area, even if he sat in a parked car from there. Get the bins out.
I seriously doubt he was in the park I really do think the dogs would have got him.
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:52 pm
I agree with that assessment. That's basically what Jimmy was sayin back in '70. No Way. And we didn't discuss Z sitting in a car outside the park watching. I would think as he went through the park to the car he would be leaving that blood/gunpowder sent behind and again dogs would walk right up to car.
There were many things happening in the park that night, but Z only mentions motorcicles. You can hear and see motorcicles from a distance. You probably wouldn't be able to see the dogs. He doesn't mention the dogs until Nov. '69 letter after that's been publicized in the news. So he didn't see any dogs that night, cause he wasn't close enough to the park to see them. If he were there he would certainly have mentioned them, they would pose a much greater threat to him than the cops.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:04 pm
I've got a couple of Springers BA great sniffer dogs, I've stood many a night outside and they stare at something off in the distance with the nose going, you can't budge them, great little hunters and they aren't trained. Trained dogs would be right on him, thats why I feel if he hung around at all to see anything it would be at a distance, they were crawling all over the Presidio by all accounts and even had the dogs go around the nearby blocks as well.
, Subject: Re: the witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:48 pm
My earlier post: "I find it curious that Z was able to describe in detail, the action (and reaction) of the police during the search of the crime scene area and the search of the Presidio. I never heard any officer or news report state that Z's description of the police activities that night was incorrect. In Z's letter to the Chronicle following the Stine murder. He gave detailed info about specific police and fire activities that night; motorcycles, dogs, searchlights on firetrucks, etc. If he had not remained somewhere in the area, how would he have known this..? Just food for thought..."
I put this post out there because Mr. X has a commanding view of the entire search area from his second story picture window overlooking the park and the area of Maple and Jackson. It also means he was just a few hundred yards on foot, from the crime scene, where a change of clothes and a dog leash would be only a short time frame.. This is where the time-line gets interesting...
bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:30 pm
Very True. My dog freaks me out sometimes at night. We live in a heavily wooded area, I'll have her out on leash and she just stops has her nose in the air sniffin away and pointing her nose in a certain direction. I know she's picking up on something.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:44 pm
The initial letter from Z on 10/13/69, doesn't give any detail. He speaks of motorcicle races and cop cars that should have just parked and waited for him to come out of hiding. He speaks of no other knowledge of what went on.
He does in his Nov letter, but by then the local news media had told the whole story for him about their search efforts. He was just re-gurgitating what he, like all of us, had read & heard on the news. It was non-stop news on this guy, obviously.
He doesn't speak of Foukes encounter either, not until Nov.
Drew, Subject: Re: The witnesses Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:40 pm
Jdean, I've really enjoyed reading about your unique insights into the Zodiac case, especially regarding the Stine case -- lots of valuable information. Do you recall if any of the young witnesses mentioned anything about Zodiac having an unusual gait or style of walking? I know Fouke mentioned this detail in his report, and a possible Z witness at Lake Berryessa made note of Z's awkward gait (if the person spotted was actually Zodiac). Thanks again for your contributions to the forum.
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:21 am
I ditto Drew's sentiment here. There's nothing like getting a Bay Area LE input on this case. I wish more of you would come on board. But please keep posting, your input is so valuable here...
bayarea60s, Subject: JDean Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:33 am
My first walk-through the park with my brother back in '69, I was amazed how many vantage points there are overlooking the park. Many times the rich folks go off on vacation and they have people watch their houses for them. Or he may have been doing work within a home for absent home owners and had access. Or he may have lived in the neighborhood, or had firends who did. So many possibilities, for me the least likely is what Z told us. I look at what he stated as more of his supporting his case that cops are too stupid and he's just too smart for them. Well we know that cops in search of a perp in a given area are not stupid, and with 5-7 dogs to aid them, well I just don't believe Z's version there. From above, inside a house, that I can see. I've never liked the car sitting scenario either. you know the lookey loo's had to be out in the neighborhood watching the cops activities. If Z was just sitting in a car someone may get suspicious of him and question what's that guy doing? Why won't he come out here like the rest of us. Just my thought....
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:54 am
I don't think the search encompassed more than the nearest blocks and the presidio (where they thought he actually went) here is a better link to the picture of the view near Hunters old digs http://sf.blockshopper.com/property/097 ... yon_street go to the googly view thing and pan around the house covered in netting is 2255 Lyon the entrance being on the other side on Lyon Street as you look downhill you can zoom in and see J.Khan playground/ Jackson and the areas of the park that he mentions. Click on the user pictures and you get the picture I first posted and can zoom in better. A great vantage point and also park/live/rent/stay over I doubt the police would send more than 1 guy at best up this far, and by all accounts once people started to come out and see what was happening change or peel off your clothes, watch mingle and then leave.
tahoe27, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:11 am
Would Zodiac be able to see anything from the property that Fouke (eventually) said Zodiac walked up to?
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:28 am
Tahoe here is 3765 Jackson Hunters old house (lived around here a lot) it was roughly here I think the house next door that he was spied, they look like townhouses to me and I think the top floors would def overlook the areas viewed. On my other images I've pinpointed on maps some of Hunters digs. I'm not saying this was him with that just pointing them out. http://img339.imageshack.us/i/jacksonstreet3765.jpg/ according to Ed Neil who researched Hunters homes, Sandy may know as well, there may be a possibillity he rented this, Ed would probably know.
, Subject: Re: The witnesses Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:45 am
[/quote]bayarea60s wrote:The initial letter from Z on 10/13/69, doesn't give any detail. He speaks of motorcicle races and cop cars that should have just parked and waited for him to come out of hiding. He speaks of no other knowledge of what went on.
He does in his Nov letter, but by then the local news media had told the whole story for him about their search efforts. He was just re-gurgitating what he, like all of us, had read & heard on the news. It was non-stop news on this guy, obviously.
He doesn't speak of Foukes encounter either, not until Nov.
Hi Bay Area,
you have a point there. I'd have to look over those dates to refresh my memory. Not sure exactly which details were revealed in the papers. It seemed to me, Z gave more detail than the papers submitted. Maybe he fabricated, Maybe he was there. Does anyone have the news account handy?
sandy betts, Subject: Stine crime scene Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:57 am
It is true that Ed N and I went to the Stine scene many times. How ever Ed wouldn't agree with my idea that the killer stayed close by, and watched everything from possibly one of those flats that over looked the park.
I never felt that he left a car near the scene to escape.
I spoke to a woman who lived in that area at that time, She told me that there were rooms that could be rented for a very short time. on Pacific Ave and on Jackson.
I was challenged by a few, who didn't check it out, but went on what they thought about my comment.
To prove what I had posted, I looked at the news paper to make sure it was true.
Sure enough there were adds for rooms to rent on those streets.
Remember that part of what the Z liked to do, was to watch the squad cars head for the crime scene. He did this when he phoned the police in Napa, and in Vallejo. Both times he was very close to the police dept or Sheriffs dept.
Ed even walked from the corner of Washington and Cherry towards Jackson to see just how many minutes he could do it in. It was thwarted because a dog started to go after him LOL.
Ed and I did a lot of investigating on Mr.X and Hunter.
We found that Hunter didn't live at the address on the corner of Washington and Cherry, after all. Ed felt that Stine's cab rolled from Maple to Cherry after Stine was shot. I again didn't think that could be what took place. I believe that the Z had planned on stopping at Maple, but felt that it was a bit too close to his true destination. He needed to throw the police off of the intended direction, so he asked to go one more block. It is still my contention that the wallet was taken because the killer looked just like Paul Stine. That the killer needed to use Stines ID for some other nefarious things he wanted to do. It wasn't for the money.
Something else that went through my head, was that the killer could have been in the other car a few days before, that Paul Stine hit with his cab. (I would like to read that report). That could have been when the killer saw just how much Stine looked like him, and was about the same age. It was then that he planned to kill the cab driver. I am just throwing some thoughts out there.
mike_r, Subject: WASH/MAPLE Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:05 am
Hi-
There is an old thread on the Net in which Ed lays out his excellent research on Hunter's house. It apparently shows that the owner had died in 1968 and that if the mansion was not empty in October 1969, it was being occupied by her former gardener or chauffeur (name: Schiantarelli), etc.! There was a servant's quarters attached to the home on Maple Street but by the edition of Polk's from 1970 that Ed looked at the name attached to the main house was of the help.
I believe that Z may have known the previous owner for a reason that may become apparent if you read through the thread and see one of the items she left to her servants in her will. I believe that it is likely she obtained that item from X. If that is the case, I believe that he may have know that the house was empty after her death and chose that intersection initially (Wash/Maple) for that reason and for the poor sight lines to the corner from two of the three other homes (other than Augsbury's old place, where Hunter would later live) there. And for its proximity to a "safe haven" in the neighborhood which is close to Wash/Maple then to Cherry.
To find the thread search on the address of Hunter's home.
Mike
