Shirt Pieces

[traveller1st]

bentley, Subject: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:19 pm

Smithy asked me to look into the shirt pieces while he's off typing a novel or something. And I have checked this out some before, dunno if I ever posted anything. These images are stolen from zkf.com doc gallery, where you can see them as well as pictures of the complete shirt.

So without further adieu:

Here's shirt piece 1



And piece 2



And piece ? Complete photo on right, blowup left. Not piece 1. Piece 2 again? Same number of dark stripes, but piece ? has white stripes bordering both sides, piece 2 has half of dark stripe 1 ripped off. Blood stains don't look the same to me. Also does not appear to contain the shirt tail seam as piece 2 does, although it might be obscured by that rod.

If someone tells me some of these are reproduction photos from the movie (I checked the doc dvd already) I will have to kick my own ass, plus someone elses. If I've made a boneheaded mistake, well I'm used to that.







tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:23 pm

These are reproduction photos.

Kidding...I don't know. I can't remember if in the actual movie they show Stine's shirt in the same manner. Don't think I have ever seen color photos though. Drawing a blank. Certainly LE had color photos.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:30 pm

Very funny...

The SFPD lists three letters with shirt pieces, Stine, Bus Bomb and Belli. I know you were yappin' with your pal Horan on shirt pieces but that had something to do with Avery getting one iirc. Kind of makes sense he would send one in the Bus Bomber, fell right between the Sine and Belli letters and he was still bragging about Stine. Is this common knowledge that I've forgotten?







tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:46 pm

Very funny...

The SFPD lists three letters with shirt pieces, Stine, Bus Bomb and Belli. I know you were yappin' with your pal Horan on shirt pieces but that had something to do with Avery getting one iirc. Kind of makes sense he would send one in the Bus Bomber, fell right between the Sine and Belli letters and he was still bragging about Stine. Is this common knowledge that I've forgotten?

Gotcha for a split-second didn't I?

We were discussing this at Tom's awhile back.

That report lumps the Dripping Pen card and the Bus Bomb together in a way. SFPD LAB#2....that doesn't help. Graysmith wrote this in the "Appendices" section of ZU/pg 448: (forgive me....)

6. November 8, 1969 (Saturday). Front and back of the envelope to Zodiac's letter to the San Francisco Chronicle. Envelope contained a 340-symbol cipher and a greeting card (Sorry I haven't written...") with a dripping fountain pen from the Gibson Company with dripping pen. SFPD Lab #2. Includes square of Stine's shirt. Postmark: PM 8 NOV. 1969 4A

***

I would say an obvious mistake. An easy one to make though...although the postmarks were different.


---Some familiar names posted here by the way:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3378






tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:54 pm

Anyone have this entire article? They lumped both letters together here too.





bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:50 pm

So there were 3 pieces mailed in, we just don't know if one came on 11/8 or 11/9? And Z only mentioned the first one?

You could have saved me a lot of effort and just told me if the first place.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:22 pm

Does anyone know if these pieces of Paul Stine's shirt have been tested for touch DNA?



morf13, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:38 pm

How is it that we have all missed this up until now?

Tahoe posted the news article that seems to confirm it and matches up to the other memo, but we have also seen news article be way off as far as Zodiac stuff goes.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:21 pm

The above evidence list states PER KEEL on the last two items with the shirt included.
Who's Keel?



morf13, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:00 pm

These are reproduction photos.

Kidding...I don't know. I can't remember if in the actual movie they show Stine's shirt in the same manner. Don't think I have ever seen color photos though. Drawing a blank. Certainly LE had color photos.

These are NOT shown in the movie. If they are props, they never included them.



AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:09 pm







duckking2001, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:39 am

Anyone have this entire article? They lumped both letters together here too.

Here it is. Sorry about the crappy quality, that's all I got.





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:34 pm

Ayuh - thanks for giving this a kick Bentley - my novel's finished. The horse dies at the end, it's very sad.

Re: "Missed it", am I missing it? We missed what - that three shirt pieces came in? I've been yapping until I'm blue in the face about it!
My friend Mr Butterfield confirmed it and pointed me to the memo from the SFPD to the FBI on the subject, too.

I've been hitting Mr Horan (my friend?! ) over the head with it ever since - and he's been ignoring me completely, as ever.
He loves to have factual errors pointed out doesn't he? "Just one" in fact, pleases him, as we know. Ahem. I digress. Anyway:



It's a minor point I suppose, the three pieces, but it did explain to me why the the photo I wanted was cunningly labelled A, B and C - even though you can't see "A". A+B+C = 3 pieces! Yay! Cunning!
The picture's also helpful, in that you can see the rest of the shirt - sort of. It's this picture I mean:



Although any and all other helpful photographs are needed at this point of the game.

Mr Horan's theory is that the piece of shirt divided into three and used for the letters wasn't removed in the attack - it was removed afterward.
Yes I know. Easter Bunny stuff. Father Christmas is real and I'm going to sleep with Halle Berry later, right after Angelina Jolie leaves.

Setting aside the obvious incredulity this theory generates - even reading his report I can't quite figure out when this happened.
At the scene, later? In the property room? Some other time? I don't know.
If it was any more redacted, it would be a noun and one adjective. Ho hum.

So, I'm still squinting at the picture, trying to see where "ABC" are, and where they fit - and much more excitingly for me - what the shirt looks like with them added back in - and how they fit with the rest of the shirt. And if when they fit there's a remaining hole, since according to Mr Horan there must be one. And one which represents a missing piece the killer wanted for some reason. Hmmmm.

Because I've also been wrestling with a question "If the letter writer got a piecce of the shirt by nefarious means later on, why did Mr Stine's REAL killer tear off a piece of his shirt in any case?"



I can understand the killer-as-letter-writer-needs-a-piece-of-shirt theory. That's simple. We like the "killer's souvenir" thing; it's on the TV a lot.
I can understand the "it was a cab heist gone wrong, which is why the wallet was take" theory too. (A wallet complete with $27 it's been estimated. Gee).
But the theory that mixes up the two things happening? That's a little harder to process.

And the fact that the killer DOES take a piece of shirt, which is known, and then along comes the letter writer, able to take a piece of shirt for himself to make his letters believable...???? Well of all the luck!
Whoa - Halle Berry is at the door! I must rush! Last paragraph:

I've come up with a theory, and it also fits the known facts quite well, for why the killer would want the first and central piece of shirt tail. We all can.

But first things first! Are there two seperate sections of the shirt missing? One taken after the other? Does any photo help us with that?
This is the corner-stone of Mr Horan's case in this instance - so if there obviously aren't, then it's Goodnight Susan.








tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:57 pm

Thanks Smity...that list is a lot more clear.

Although...they still clump those together in #2 and put them in the wrong order. lol



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:07 pm

IIRC I came to the conclusion, based on the three pieces I so carefully analysed yesterday prior to learning it was plainly documented that there is in fact a hunk missing. There is only one piece that I can tell that contains the seam at the bottom of the tail (piece 2 above), and it's only roughly half the width (count the stripes) as the missing section of the shirt back, which you inconviently neglected to post. Best I can tell the missing "piece 4" goes in this area, roughly, or the other side. This, in the hoaxer theory, would be the piece the actual shooter took. The hoaxer then came along and took the other three pieces that form the L shaped area around it. Chances of that? About the same as Halle Berry showing up at Smithy's today.

More likely Z never got around to using piece 4.

BTW, a further study of the shirt pieces, stripes and blood stains could conclusively place the pieces on the shirt back. I don't feel like doing it unless there's a better need than Horan's theory, but anyone's welcome to have at it.





tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:11 pm

Ok...I have the missing piece of shirt. My Dad took it. Oh, I'm friends with Halle....she's on her way Smithy.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:34 pm

Ok...I have the missing piece of shirt. My Dad took it. Oh, I'm friends with Halle....she's on her way Smithy.

Finally some good news! (Now, how to explain this to Mrs Smithy?)

Bentley - I don't understand that at all.
The "ABC" bits look as if they fit right up to a seam. And your red square's in the back, nowhere near a seam.
And yet the front of the shirt looks as if it goes right out to the seams at the front - and at the back it's not torn anywhere near the seams.
My head aches.

What's the Horan bloke on about?!



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:49 pm

My understanding was, and I'm loathe to stare at this thing for another hour, is that the 'pieces' you see to the left B and C above are not pieces, they are just continuations of the horizontal rips continuing to the seam that runs from the underarm to the bottom. The rips to the left of that, on the other side of the seam? That is what you see on the front shot of the shirt. It is a bit odd that there are two horizontal rips, only one required to get out a big square piece. A point in Horan's favor of a second cutter, and he also blabs about the rips crossing the underarm seam. I have never tried to rip a piece of shirt off the back of a dead body on the front seat of a car, who knows how difficult it was and what he had to do it with.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:57 pm

I have never tried to rip a piece of shirt off the back of a dead body on the front seat of a car, who knows how difficult it was and what he had to do it with.

No? What have you been doing with your life?!
Do I sense a little frustrsation on your part, Herr Bentley?

Give me a moment and I'll see if I can put the pieces together (did you see what I did there?) in Paint.
It's good, this.
Here - something like that.
A + B (or is it B or C?) have something of the side seam of the shirt in, B + C (or was it two other pieces?) don't.
The thing is, we're looking at the back of the front tail of the shirt - rather than the, errrrrr, back.
The original missing piece was quite a neat square out of the centre of the back - not too bloody and perfectly useful for the purpose taken. Maybe.
The second stolen bit wrapped round to the front a little, going over a side seam, and had some blood on.
Any sense to that?
I'm not good with paint.
For the Horan thing to work, this has to be what we're looking at. It''s hokey, I know.





bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:08 pm

Only frustration is at the same time I'm studying to be an EMT, which at my age is ridiculous, I'm more likely to need one. Terms like Sphenoidal fontaelle are hard enough to master without the temptation of studying bloody shirts, something I find much more interesting but are certainly less rewarding in terms of community service.

Also a bit frustrated that I did at one time think I knew where all the pieces belonged, but I don't think I posted about it. I hope you can figure out any mistakes I've made, and hold me duly accountable.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:12 pm

You, Sir, will be a marvellous EMT qualified bloke, in a bit.
I should perhaps have studied harder at Paint school.
Please see my amended post - and we are all accountable!
I've got AB and C in the wrong place and they should be swung 90 degrees or something, or one of them should. I'm a lazy bugger.




Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:58 pm

I am so late to be posting this but will anyway. I've just posted two SF Chron articles on the Belli letter.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... cles#33278

The first of the two articles says that a swatch of Paul Stine's shirt was included in one of the November letter, too.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:06 pm

Seagull, you keep finding these clippings I've never seen, like rabbits from hats! Many many thanks.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:23 pm

Smithy whenever I make the trip to Santa Rosa I go to the library where they have the Chronicle on microfilm and get a few articles on the Zodiac case as well as other cases. I have quite a little stash built up and I haven't posted them all because I'm lazy, finding the Paint process rather boring and mind numbing. It's when a question about something comes up that I'm moved to knuckle down and post.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:46 pm

Seagull, How I understand that! I've spent my fair share of time in a newspaper archive I can assure you - transferring from the morgue to the electronic stash, (Digital Asset Library ho ho), and just as you say it's soul-destroying. At least I got paid. I'll send money!

Does the shirt thing make sense to anyone?
I've just phtographed one of mine, and tried to show the missing bits, and that when the front of the short's folded back in place, from the back you can't see what's missing.
Is it OK?
If not, I'll wait for my wife to go to bed and get the scissors out.
I don't dare do that meantime - she thinks I'm being a little compulsive, I can't think why!



Grrrr, have resized it, and (I hope) rotated it too.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:08 pm

I can't believe you bought a Stine replica shirt. I'm almost afraid to comment.

DON"T become a cab driver.

I'm not getting it, someone besides Smithy needs to explain it to me.

You're saying the 3 small rectangles you show are the 3 shirt pieces? I didn't see on that did not have the tear parallel to the stripes.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:17 pm

I can't believe you bought a Stine replica shirt. I'm almost afraid to comment.

DON"T become a cab driver.

I'm not getting it, someone besides Smithy needs to explain it to me.

You're saying the 3 small rectangles you show are the 3 shirt pieces? I didn't see on that did not have the tear parallel to the stripes.

I went out and mugged a bloke in town and stole it from him.

Large square place in middle back is first piece taken at the scene by man with 9mm.
Small rectangles are the three letter pieces, aye aye.
Piece "B" is the topmost one, has stripes running down through it and no seam. (That's your "piece 1" I think).
Piece "C" is the one beneath that, has stripes running down through it and seam from bottom edge of the shirt. (Your piece 2 - and I haven't drawn it well).
Last piece from the other side of the seam going around to the FRONT of the shirt is piece "A" (not marked in the earlier photo).

It's a difficult exercise in 3-dimensional thinking. May help if you throw a shirt of your own on the floor. (May not!!!!) Voila!







bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:22 pm

OK, got it. So you see bottom seams in two of the pieces?

And the big unaccounted for piece was the one used by the killer to wipe the cab eh?



Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:22 pm

Wait a minute Bentley, aren't you the one who convinced his wife to play the body of Paul Stine while you were hopping in and out of the car while it was moving???

I will admit to ripping up one of my husbands shirts to see how easy or hard it was to do. The side seams and rolled hem were the tough part and it was a whole lot easier if there was a small tear or hole in the fabric to begin with.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:33 pm

NO! The car was not moving without me in it, I'm not that stupid. I did try to drive it with her feet clogging up the pedals. I am that stupid, evidently.

Smithy, the part I'm struggling with in your interpretation is:

In this photo the entire left front of the shirt appears in place



In this photo, part B still appears to be connected to the main shirt at top left.





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:43 pm

See if my recent edit helps.
I wish the photo's didn't rotate themselves at their own convenience. It is beginning to annoy me just a little!

In your top picture the entire left front of the shirt is in place - but there's no back behind it. Yes, that's right. Blimey.
So have I put my 3 pieces on the wrong side? It's late! I'm getting confoooooosed!

Edit - no I haven't . Good! Your top photo fits round the edge of A and then back along B. I will go colour mine in for you if you like, in a sec.
Jeepers - it also shows an extra little cut which shows that the shirt had to have been sliced across to get the "new" pieces without Paul Stine still being in it.
Wowsa.
And I know you won't know what I'm on about but never mind!!

The second photo - well, if I told you I think it would just be even MORE confusing. :cherry:




bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:52 pm

Geez I hope no one else is reading this.

Your shirt shows A piece a coming from the front of the shirt, ahead of the side seam. Right?

The front of Stine's shirt looks complete all the way to the side seam with no piece added in from the 3 pieces mailed in. Right? Bottom photos below








smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:57 pm

Yeah you're right - you reckon I've got piece "A" wrong then, and it doesn't go round toward the "front"? Looks like it.
Hang on a minute, I'll tear up another.

You think the pieces came from one section cut between that centre stolen bit and the seam? I'll go with that.
Messes up my pictures though.

See what I mean though - looking at the front right side of the shirt in those pictures, there's nothing at all remaining of the back - right?

And I gues where "B" and "C" are written on the top photo - that's where piece "A" should fit in, huh?



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:04 pm

Yeah you're right - you reckon I've got piece "A" wrong then, and it doesn't go round toward the "front"? Looks like it.
Hang on a minute, I'll tear up another.

Ya I think so...

You think the pieces came from one section cut between that centre stolen bit and the seam? I'll go with that.
Messes up my pictures though.

Not so sure about that any more. How come we can't see anything behind where the front of the shirt is torn?

See what I mean though - looking at the front right side of the shirt in those pictures, there's nothing at all remaining of the back - right?

Oops, you said that already. We have more work to do. Right now you do, I'm heading to Subway.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:12 pm

I'm here Bentley - and thinking an ooooops is quite possible here.
In that original photo of yours, it could well be that the whole tail of the shirt is missing, no? Yes?
That the sections that came in as A B and C are part of an arrangement that goes all the way from one seam to another?
Like so?



Mr Horan would allege that the whole section from the edge of the large piece all the way over to the right hand seam was what the killer removed and used, and that the difference in heights between the pieces on the left show the A B and C bits came from a piece cut later. Seperately. (The diagrams nearly right. I hope you know what I mean).
(He also has something to say about the blood being clotted and so on, but I'm not sure I understand or agree with that).

But.

If the killer started by cutting up the right hand seam, then tearing across from right to left - then before he'd gone all the way across the shirt cut up the left hand seam, and tore back across to join the two up, or vice versa - it would have had the same effect.
And it certainly seems to me to be more likely....
Especially if we really are looking at a shirt with the whole tail missing. Ah........!!!!!!!!

Like this:



Now that, friends and neighbours, puts a rather large hole in Mr Horan's theory I think. What a giggle.
I'll go sleep on it.
Let's not lose sight of the callousness of the absolute scumbag who shot Paul Stine and then turned him over to steal his wallet - and also tore off his shirt to wipe away some of his fingerprints, by the way. As has been said, he still needs to find his just reward on earth, if at all possible.







bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:51 pm

Is he gone?

I think he may have it. So the big square in the middle of the back is unaccounted for. A second person took it? If the killers intention was to wipe the cab with it, I would have grabbed a bigger piece than the accounted for pieces that were mailed in (put together). You can only stuff so much into an envelope, the point is proven with a small piece. Z probably still had some left over but after the Belli letter there was really no reason to keep sending pieces in.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:54 pm

Sorry mate I've been editing away - news fresh in.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:03 pm

You're killing me.

But yes, good work. As you will see here, the blood stains on the front tail of the shirt:



Match the back image, so that is the front tail, the back is missing.




EDIT: Actually both sides, the entire back is gone.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:07 pm

You're not wrong. Of course - good spot!
And if Mr Stines body was still in the shirt it wouldn't match anyway, would it.
So there is no back on that shirt whatsoever below that cut line, and the possibility is very strong that Mr Horan ain't right about the "two people" thing eh? Dooooozy.
Yes? Yes!
Hope you're not quite dead!

Edit: Ha! I just realisd the the timing of that post I made on his blog is now going to make me look a proper chump. Won't be the first time. Truth!



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:25 pm

Duuno about this proving Horan wrong, hard to really say how it went. You put a dead guy on your lap, reach over him and try to rip a shirt all the way across from side to side in one swoop, not easy. Probably would be easier to start up the second side then finish the cross cut. As you said.

Put that shirt on and come on over, I'll give it a try.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:33 pm

With respect to Mr Stine - and plenty is due - yes, about now a 9mm would be about deserved, for me.
And OK yes - I'll keep an open mind about the "cuts across the warp threads" as he call them (or wefts, whatever), and we'll see.
Cheers bud! Here endeth the physical evidence for the shirt debate I guess.
Back around the thoughts on what happened that evening next, up until "his" leaving the crime scene I guess.
I'm gonna :sleep:




bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:35 pm

The size of the piece still missing is huge, three times what was mailed in. So according to Horan, somebody took that much of the shirt after the crime? Dicey. "Hey Toschi, what happened to the rest of the shirt? It was here a minute ago."



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:41 pm

Here's something to think about while you're trying to sleep:

The number of stripes in the pieces don't match up with your layout. :bball:



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:48 pm

The size of the piece still missing is huge, three times what was mailed in. So according to Horan, somebody took that much of the shirt after the crime? Dicey. "Hey Toschi, what happened to the rest of the shirt? It was here a minute ago."

I'm not sleeping yet. Yes the size of the missing piece is indeed huge.
Horan hasn't stipulated the size has he, and is talking about making a video of what happened with the shirt I think (or was).
Can't have been too obvious can it? And since that kind of a "step" there in the cloth matches about the size of the ABC conglomerate, I thought he was talking about just that piece being lifted.
You think someone tidying up the whole shirt tail somehow - after the killer took a piece of it at the scene, size unknown - is what he's suggesting?
Maybe it WAS obvious to some people?
He IS also saying something about them being accused of it, too, although it's so heavily redacted I can't get though that bit.
I thought it was much simpler than that - obviously. Hmmmm..
Good night! :sleep: :sleep:

Re: the number of stripes, ask me if I care.




bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:53 pm

I have a feeling those pieces came from the other side of the shirt..



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:55 pm




And piece 2



Piece 2 above, if it is right side up, is longer on the left side than right, indicating it came from the other side.

Maybe.

Something to not sleep on.





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:07 pm

From behind the front right, as you look at the shirt from the front, for the shorter piece?
And the other piece from the other side maybe? Even though the photo shows two pieces one above the other... they may not be "1 + 2"?
And we've no pictures of the third piece?
This wants some checking, for sure.
It's been a long night.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:21 pm

From behind the front right, as you look at the shirt from the front, for the shorter piece?

I think maybe. Go to bed, I'll work on it, 'nother football game to sit through.

49ers beat the Packers in Green Bay, which prolly means nothing to you.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:45 pm

None of the blood stains on the three pieces match anything on the shirt that I can see. The piece on the lower right has one less stripe than the once above it, which corresponds with area B and C on short. My guess is they go there, one atop the other, and the use the same tear at the other side. But where is the bottom seam?






smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:47 am

I've still got my Green Bay hat from Superbowl XXXI I'll have you know! Go 49'ers though - my favourite team.

Herewith your image. Both B and C I fllipped, and B was foreshortened terribly so I stretched it.
(The photographer was an idiot. Fortunately I'm a genius with a camera, so I soon sorted it out. )
Edit: C very helpfully has a label on it which says "Shirt part C" I've just noticed.
The seam - at the bottom of C - now would properly fit a shirt-tail contour, too.



I'm not sure about that pale piece. Yes it must be A I suppose. If it's A where does it fit - to the right of "B" maybe? Difficult to tell.
It's not very big. It wouldn't match the full height of B+C combined. Is there another piece missing, then?
Why would they photograph two pieces and label them, and not the third? Rotters!

A couple of other things noted.
Whatever made those two incisions across the seam under the arm and on into the front of the shirt, which produces that flapping piece on the front right in the front shot - that was awfully sharp.

If that's A - is that B lined up and lying right underneath it in that shot? Why?

What are the holes in the pieces all about? Testing?

Last - yes these pieces of shirt have blood on them. For maximum effect, I suppose. I imagine the centre section of the shirt tail had less blood on it, judging by what the shirt looks like from the front. Does that show that the killer selected these pieces, from near the side seam, because they did have more blood on? (The "Zodiac" - terrorist killer and bad guy theory), or because they were the ones available, and the fact that they were more bloody was a "happy chance" (the Horan "2-men take pieces from the shirt" theory).

I wonder.




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:07 am

Ayuh! That other pieces is "A" - and it looks as if it fits to the right of both B and C, and it's pretty big. As tall as them together? Perhaps not.
Yes, it could have a hemmmed lower edge to coincide with the bottom of the shirt.
And that's a hem, rather than a properly rolled-edge seam. (I've been talking with my mate who makes shirts. They have a gusset too, you know. Who knew?)
Either your picture is upside-down (and I begin to suspect you rotate all your photos for fun), or this lab guy is concentrating on it the wrong way up.
I wonder what he's playing on his radiogram?

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineShirt2.html



soccer, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:52 am

yes smithy there is a 4 1/2 -6in x 9-10in of Steins shirt piece missing .



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:15 am

Sounds good. I'd heard something along those lines. Kick it over will you, Soccer?
Have you a diagram and some way to verify sizing, shape, does it start at the back right seam etc?



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:18 am

Yup, would have been tough getting through that side seam with the cab keys, as some have suggested the reason for taking them. A knife more likely, or the scissors at the coroner's

I was thinking Z may have started there at the left side front, with Stine falling over towards the passenger side it would have been at top. Perhaps he started in tront (twice) before finally getting through the seam.

Can't figure out where the flaps next to B and C are in the photo of the back of the shirt, folded around underneath?



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:23 am

.... Perhaps he started in tront (twice) before finally getting through the seam.
Can't figure out where the flaps next to B and C are in the photo of the back of the shirt, folded around underneath?

Good point the double start and yes, I suppose that the flaps must be tucked under a bit - which is why I thought there was more missing to start off with.
Soccer, have you been cutting up shirts and measuring them? If so you've got the same problems I have...... poor fella.

When do we start on "The writer took the shirt as proof. Why did the killer take some?"
(If indeed they're seperate people. Or even if they're not).



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:43 am

When do we start on "The writer took the shirt as proof. Why did the killer take some?"
(If indeed they're seperate people. Or even if they're not).

Right now! It's a new day.

I think the shirt was taken to wipe the cab, plain and simple. Others think as a trophy. Well he had the wallet and cab keys. If you need more cut some hair off, take a shoe, or his watch, the log book. What he did took a bunch of extra time and effort, and nearly got him nailed.

A hoaxer seeing a piece of shirt missing, at the morgue or some area where he could be alone with it, coming up with the idea of taking more to give to his accomplice letter writer right away to mail in with a letter the next day? Well, someone thought up the Slinkey and the Pet Rock, so I guess anything's possible.

I guess you're thinking the killer stopped at the change in the horizontal tear in the back? Why would the hoaxer go up another half inch and then over instead of continuing along the same tear? Wouldn't start at the other side seam would he?

Oh, and I still have my seat cushion form Super Bowl.....I'd have to go look, but the Niners beat Dan Marino and the Dolphins, Montana and Clark were spot on (The Catch), I got pick pocketed and got in a fight in the parking lot. Fun day.





bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:57 am

Edit: C very helpfully has a label on it which says "Shirt part C" I've just noticed.

Wow, that's convenient, and changes everything. Could have pointed that out sooner...

So Mrs. Bentley, who's always looking over my shoulder and is actually quite curious (at my dementia mostly) yesterday wanted to know why this sticker says 1997, apparently, a whole bunch of years after it should be. I gave her my usual answer "Leave me alone", but today being her Birthday :queen: , I thought I'd throw it out there.





tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:01 pm

Huh...that is weird.

I was going to say it could be "69", but the rest of the date wouldn't make sense. Good eye Mrs. Bentley....and Happy Birthday! :flower:



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:08 pm

She says thanks!, and is dang proud that she noticed something interesting.

Could it be one of those image reversal/flip things?



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:41 pm

New day! Happy Birthday Mrs B!!!!! :joker: :king: :flower:

Mrs Bentley's better than we are. I didn't see the "part C" on that earlier label until I'd finished playing with the images. What a doofus. :face:
I suspect the upper "97" thing is a case number - let's look at the reports.

The date? I think it may be a date! Where do these images in colour come from? Some sort of true-life crime show no?
Is it possible that was filmed in '97 and that they labelled them up as having been accessed / changed / molested on that date? Gee I dunno!
Promote your wife to "Inspector" ASAP.

Meantime, no new theories from me. I think the shirt was probably taken to wipe the cab down too. How boring! Here's a nice SHORT post about it.

I think the shooter intended to rob Paul, but Paul reached for him with his left hand and the gun went off.
Paul had been robbed not long before, and maybe on this occasion had had enough. All for $27.
So the meter's running, the cab's not in park, and I think just like a comedy adventure, the shooter had to lean over trying to do something, anything, to stop the runaway cab - and perhaps to steer it to its resting place near the kerb. Yes, I think he probably steered it.
BTW I can't imagine any circumstances which would lead the police to dust the cab controls; pity. Cabs can and do have LOTS of other prints on them. Not on the steering wheel and gear shift though - and not on the car keys. I think if they HAD dusted the steering wheel they would have found it clean - which might have been a bit of a surprise, perhaps.

Anyway, when it came to rest I think he pushed Paul over to get his wallet - he still needed the money - from what my friend McBaiin calls the "sucker pocket". Whilst grabbing Paul's wallet out pops the shirt tail - an irresistible piece of cloth - which he grabs, cuts off, and uses to wipe off his prints.
Maybe it was shirt first, wallet second. Doesn't matter.
I don't think he necessarily used the keys for cutting the shirt - I think he snatched the keys out in stopping the car. (I'd like a shot of the dash in one of those to see, but it seems right, to me). So at this point he may have had the keys in his hand, still. And time was short, so.......

The centre section of the shirt tail at least was relatively blood-free and useable. Maybe he wiped the drivers door too because he leaned in to do the steering wheel from outside the car? I don't know. I haven't read the reports again properly, but the kids saw him "wiping down the cab" - I think thats WHY he was wiping it down. This perp didn't want to leave prints - making him different from both the callers, and the letter writer.
Interesting!
This perp had a criminal record and prints on file. I think, which means that the wiping he did was successful. If we regard The Zodiac as the man who is the letter caller / writer / killer, we know he didn't care about prints much, don't we. Of course he was "leaving false clews"................... ............. !!! ??? How very odd.

Who knows, the perpetrator might also have wanted the shirt to wipe his face. That wouldn't surprise me. I think of the Fincher movie, and also that scene in Pulp Fiction (with no humour at all) now, when I imagine the scene in the cab. "Oh man, I shot Marvin in the face." Were they the shooter's gloves? I don't know but I doubt it. If they were his, he would have put them on. The "blood soaked " thing's hooey. They got bloody in the cab, just like John Travolta did, but on balance I think if the shooter had the nice small hands that the gloves fitted, he would have been wearing them.

Helpfully for Mr Horan:

1) The MO can vary, therefore, from the rest of the crimes - it's a robbery, not a murder. It's not "The Zodiac" - my guy from Berryessa - at least.
So the gun can vary, the physical description can vary, because it's not part of a series, Except it's part of a series of cab stick-ups.
Now, there's plenty of supporting evidence that this particular perp was up to this sort of hokum already, and there's even a very good matching physical description of him elsewhere, in connection to a cab robbery.

2) The killer has a good reason to take part of the shirt in this scenario - and so does the letter writer.
This is the only scenario I can think of which helps that knotty problem of both taking shirt piece(s). I don't like that idea at all. Still don't.

That's about it. I do mistrust the idea of someone taking a "second" piece of that shirt though, I really do.
I can't see why someone would be removing a piece of that shirt, and stop 2/3rds of the way across, or whatever it is.
If you're in the cab needing a piece of cloth quick, it would be much simpler to take it all.........
But I suppose I have to acknowledge there's just a chance that it wasn't all taken.








bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:56 pm

I agree with all of what you said I think, and I have comments (noticed the shirt tail when getting the wallet, brilliant! and maybe took the keys cause he had to turn the engine off). But right now Mrs. B is ready to go so I'm off to the shopping mall. :cheers: I'll check out some slack dresses.





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:11 pm

Buy her something expensive! :cheers:



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:43 pm

Buy her something expensive! :cheers:

Happy Birthday to Mrs. Bentley,
I say take her to one of those wonderful restaurants in Marin. And then find a yummie ice cream or cup cake
place. And gifts...well gifts are always good. Get off the computer and go have a good day!
Also thank her for her good eyes and help.

Zincerely, Zam*



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:07 pm

Ah, I should have read this before perhaps, from the Pellisseti report. It changes things a little - not a lot:

"....described suspect in the front seat of the Yellow cab, mid to passenger side, with the victim slumped partially over his lap. The suspect appeared to be searching the victim's pockets. (Witnesses never heard a gun shot). The suspect then appeared to be wiping (fingerprints) on the interior of the cab, leaning over the victim to the driver's compartment. The suspect then exited the cab by the passenger side front door, also wiping with a white rag, possibly a handkerchief. The suspect then walked around the cab to the driver's side and proceeded to wipe the XXXXXX exterior of the left door area, The suspect then fled (walking) north on Cherry St."

Which is revealing isn't it? I thought there was some argument about where the attacker was sitting?
Since no-one would willingly get out and go around to sit with Paul's head on their lap as he bled profusely from his head wound, I imagine he was in the front with Paul when he shot him. I can't think of a compelling reason otherwise - it was a cab without a divider, I understand.
If he wanted his wallet - and he did - he could still have reached it from the back seat. That might even have been easier - and ccertainly not as bloody.

Bentley, your theory about the shirt tears being started on the right would fit nicely with a right handed attacker in the front seat with Paul.

The slightly hysterical "runaway cab" scenario isn't a bad one from this perspective either. Trying to get to the controls, the attacker would perhaps have less issue with pulling Paul toward him. Otherwise he would be likely to have searched him and tried to get to his wallet by pushing him away, I'd imagine.
Just bringing the cab to a controlled stop from a slow speed and turning it off would be enough, it doesn't need to be a wild ride for a whole block, as has been imagined before, I think.

So the wiping was the drivers controls, and getting the car turned off, and the keys out - and "wiping with a white rag" - yes - the fragment of shirt.
Wiping the passenger side where he got in, and as he exited, makes sense.
Wiping the drivers side? I can only presume that the attacker had leaned on the drivers side door talking to Paul, when he was picked up. Or perhaps he'd forgotten the exact cirumstances of his earlier contact with the cab, and was making sure.
Pellisseti wrote, then struck out, the word "interior" in the report for the drivers side it seems - so unless the drivers door was open, he was wiping the outside. Evidently it was important to him.
Well, there you are then.



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:16 pm

Sitting in the front seat as well as wiping the driver side? Sounds as if he knew Stein. Others would have chosen the back seat..



It is somehow strange..also that in the description it is written that Z was walking away (like slowly?). The report doesn't seem very precise as Stine isn't over his lap at all..rather lying on his back.

QT



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:31 am

Jdean327's interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... esses#2197

[traveller1st]

traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:51 am

Jdean327's interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... esses#2197

Yup,

Very good. I have read it before but it's always nice to refresh. Certainly gives you more faith in the composite.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:53 am

QT (Cutey!) - Dousette moved Paul Stine (he was an arriving ambulanceman, it's been said) in order to try and render him first aid, one would imagine. Why they would then photograph the man in that unfortunate position, I couldn't say. Presumably the crime scene tech's didn't know he'd been moved.

Bentley - great thread that, and that post in particular. I liked:

"opened the drivers door. Stein had fallen over onto the seat and Z pulled him back up into the seated position and had some difficulty keeping him upright. Once upright, he was seen to have a rag, or something like a handkerchief and began to wipe down the door area and leaning over the driver, part of the dashboard. Whe[n] he was finished, Z calmly walked to Cherry St. and walked North."

...since OK, he did open the door, so makes sense he wiped that too. It also makes some sense to me that he pulled Paul Stine back into a sitting position - where he'd represent some semblance of normality, sitting up in his cab - to afford some time to escape before the crime was discovered. That would explain his confidence level being high enough to walk off slowly. Maybe he was wiping bloodstains from the dash since they might also have served to attract attention, but again, I'd bet it was the steering wheel.
No matter, really.

Evidently he didn't notice that he was being observed - he wouldn't have acted so coolly if he had known, huh? And those last few actions would have made no sense. So those reports of the kids "making eye contact with the killer" are just bs., as one might expect.

(What does his buying some time like that say about where he was going to? To a nearby car, to drive away? Not if he really was a robber - a guy who held up cab drivers for twenty bucks and a ride. I suspect he lived not too far away down the hill - someplace affordable. Pure speculation.)

FWIW I think he looked JUST like that composite.






smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:49 am

Lastly - ah lastly. With me always a "lastly".

Mr Horan's very excited with the idea that the writer would need a confederate in the SF coroner's office to get some shirt material for him etc., then posting it yadda yadda, two people and so on. He has a suspect based on this idea. I have no idea at all who the suspect might be. It's all very complicated.

I've a question: If you'd just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt?



RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:28 am

...I've a question: If you'd just shot a cab driver to death and robbed him, how far would you walk carrying a piece of his shirt?

We can safely assume that Z thought his crimes through insofar as assessing the odds, and making sure that they were in his favour i.e. shooting kids in or next to a car, like shooting fish in a barrel; and penning victims in on a lakeside peninsula with no means of escape.

Hence, he would no doubt have thought through or researched the response times of cops to a Presidio Heights type area cabbie killing/robbery.

Perhaps a minimum of 3 to 4 minutes, given that a witness would have to call the cops, most likely via an operator. And then the dispatcher would have to alert patrols.

So, 3 to 4 minutes to calmly walk to the park, and/or possibly a nearby car. Just enough.




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:38 am

Hi RTF - is that Rich Text Format btw, or am I just being nerdy? And welcome if you're indeed new. Your other post doesn't make you sound THAT new.

I agree with you entirely. Anyone would want to know how long he or she likely had to stage an escape. To not behave that way would be the actions of a junkie or a drug addict, or someone too desperate for money to be thinking properly. None of those seem to completely apply here.

And thanks, I perhaps need to re-phrase my question..... Doh!

Would you - if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?
Or have you already answered that?



RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:53 am

......Would you - if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?
Or have you already answered that?

Why not? ....I'm The Zodiac. I'm spattered in blood. I've got a gun. I've got options for shootout, suicide and surrender. And I need this shirt to prove I did it.

Or maybe my car is very near by, not by the park. ... I seem to have thought out the rest of it ... And, you know how I can fib!

(BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike's). Thx for the welcome in any case. ...And you can blame that Zam for my return.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am

Jdean327's interview with the kids who saw Z is a must read when studying what happened in the cab

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... esses#2197

The (16 yr. old??) kid saw blood?

I think stories get embellished, but I'm sure the majority of this one is correct.

Either way it doesn't prove Zodiac was in the front seat.

Here's the thing. There was no exit wound. So...how did blood get everywhere?

I think at first STINE'S body probably fell towards the door or steering wheel. It's not like there was a spray. So the blood would have been coming from the entrance wound and maybe nose, mouth, ears...

I do think immediately after STINE was shot, he would not have been all sprawled out with blood everywhere. I think happened when Zodiac moved the body to get to the shirt.

We can question all day whether Zodiac sat in the front or back, but we will never have the answer.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: "never have the answer" amen to that. Not sure it much matters either. (I just know I wouldn't have gone and got in the front, personally!)
I didn't know there was no exit wound T - I really should have gone and read up again.
My two film scenarios don't play either then hmm? Wouldn't you know it, get lazy on something and it will bite you.
Still, I suppose less blood spatter = more likely to need cloth for wiping fingerprints.

Ah Rufus T, of course. Yo! I'm giving up playing detective, I'm rubbish at it.

Is Paul Stine still in the seat in this picture?
And is that any old passerby just a-swinging on the door, or someone known?
Toschi's pants are too short.

http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/sanfrancisco.htm



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:31 pm

I'm sure glad you guys showed up to play with Smithy, I gotta lurk for a bit.

One last bit of Horanism: IIRC he said something about the blood print, like one minute droplet of blood got past Stine's head (no exit wound right?), flew out the open window (it is open I believe), and instead of falling to the ground or on the door it made a U-turn and landed on the outside window frame.

That just may have the Kennedy bullet beat.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:15 pm

(BTW, I am Rufus (T Firefly), formerly of this parish, and Mike's). Thx for the welcome in any case. ...And you can blame that Zam for my return.[/quote]

Off topic for just a quick second! But YAY Rufus (T. Firefly) you are one of us, so there!
So glad you are posting again....I know we all missed you, your wisdom & that wild, fun energy!

Zincerely Your Pal, Zam :star:



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:16 pm

Out of curiosity,

Did Horan's theory include the operator who issued the BMA info??






RTF, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm

.......Would you - if you took the shirt with you, walk very far with it still in your possession?

Okay Smithy. Leaving aside that you failed to crack my idenity given the actual initials , why the question? And what kind of answers did you expect?



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:10 pm

Well JDean's interview explains why Zodiac went back to the driver's side of the cab.
To prop the body of Paul Stine back straight up. It sounds like he struggled a little, and
therefore could have inadvertently left some prints, at least palm prints.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Poor Bentley, I've tired him out with this Horan tosh. Good luck matey - but take this with you. Whatever scenario he's on about, and I can't make head nor tail of it. Horan said "The print on the driver’s door window post was made by a hand which had grasped the post, with the ring finger pressing down on a tiny droplet of blood spattered onto the interior of the door..."
Horan, Thomas (2012-07-19). The Great Zodiac Killer Hoax of 1969 (Kindle Locations 556-558). . Kindle Edition. .

So there you are.
What it's about I have no idea as yet. Something about a finger print on the cab matching the "Little List" letter I think - but then one would expect that to be the case if Zodiac shot Stine and took a piece of his shirt to validate the letters with! That's all very odd.

1WK - you think Stine was still alive? Could have been I suppose, I hadn't thought of that. I must read the autopsy stuff if there is any. I'm strike 3 right now on basic homework. Very bad.

Trav - nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn't extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though!

RTF - Hello again and well met, it's certainly been a while.
Well, yes, the question.
Excuse me if you know this, but this bloke Horan who has stirred everything up suggesting all the letters are faked. And the car door at Berryessa. It's tough to get to grips with. He asserts that Paul Stine's killer didn't remove a piece of shirt that went straight across the back - that a subsequent malefactor removed another piece. (From either the coroner's or the property office I suppose, although that's not yet clear from his heavily redacted "report" either.) Difficult for me, that. Althhough if he produces a suspect or some wonderful evidence in the future, well OK I'll have been wrong. Again.

Meantime it struck me that if the killer wasn't the letter writer, as alleged, and therefore didn't need Paul's shirt to validate future letters, (had indeed only removed it to wipe down the cab to get rid of fingerprints having no substitute to do so with him), that he might not have kept it for long.
I can't imagine, say, that he would have taken it home.

I'd have thought the keys and wallet might have gone down a drain - perhaps the shirt too - or into someone's front yard.
It seemed a far likelier scenario to me that if the letter writer were at or near the crime scene and did indeed touch the cab, he might have seen and retrieved that whole piece of shirt.

But still, this is an awful lot of far-reaching speculation to try and make Mr Horan's theory more believable isn't it. There's an easier explanation!




onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:39 pm

So once again, Mr Horan's letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the
scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse.
Did Zodiac keep momentos of his crimes? In my opinion he did. My suspect kept many
creepy items which I had no idea what they meant when we were married. Old keys,
bits of jewelry, horn rimmed eye glasses. If only I knew what to look for... Very similar
to what Miss Sandy Betts describes as being left in the back seat of her car that day.
One day, maybe 16 years after we were married, my three year old toddled out holding
a ladies' stocking (not mine) singular, with a run, stopped by a dab of cheap nailpolish.
Lots of weird stuff like that over the years. Didn't know to look for a piece of striped shirt.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:12 am

Trav - nope, no mention of the BMA info, I just searched the thing for you. His conspiracy didn't extend that far. Fortunately. It might yet though!

Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch:




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:24 am

Maybe he did, the dispatcher hoaxed! :scratch:

When you're smart - and of course want to appear smarter - it's easy just to keep cranking on up the insanity level to fit where you want to get to isn't it!
I think the SFPD dispatcher's a good target for conspiracy - and so is the tech ID at Napa who managed to foul up the job of taking the handprint from the phone at the car wash. (If that's true....).
They did it on purpose, I tell you! It's a conspiracy!



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:36 am

Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that...that would make it a coin-spiracy.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:58 am

Lets not forget all the employees at the US Federal Reserve. Oh, wait, scrap that...that would make it a coin-spiracy.

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:32 am

So once again, Mr Horan's letter Hoaxer is an accessory to murder, having been at the
scene of murders messing with evidence. Much worse than a hoax. Much worse.

My opinion too, if true, although Mr Horan's blog makes it appear that no charges can now be preferred. Sounds hokey - what do I know.
Here in ye UK, we prosecute people who mess with the justice system most avidly. (As I've said often, recently).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wearside_Jack
Re: "Zodiac and souvenirs" - I am raising my eyebrow, electronically, here!
On any other thread I'd wonder about it, but on this thread of course I'm compelled to say no, because he wasn't there.

STOP PRESS:
A bone from Mr Horan - who makes two good points.
If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd.
He also mentions that the Belli letter didn't arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it's a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I'll have to check.
How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] - which I think is absolute pootle.
Last, he says who is the mysterious Mr Keel? (I think you asked about him on the other thread already "onewhoknows"....)
Ah, me.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:16 am

STOP PRESS:
A bone from Mr Horan - who makes two good points.
If there was a piece of shirt in the November 9th letter, why does it also say "To prove I am the Zodiac ask the Valleho cop about my electric gun sight" which is odd.

To prove that Stine's killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa)

STOP PRESS:
He also mentions that the Belli letter didn't arrive until December 20. Hmm. I presume (immediately) that it's a cash-in on the TV stuff, but I'll have to check.
How very tedious this is! Mr Horan rattles on about it being a genuine requirement for a lawyer [in his report] - which I think is absolute pootle.

Anniversary of LHR...



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:58 am

To prove that Stine's killer was the same killer as in Vallejo, no? Am I underthinking this one? (first cuppa)

No, yes, I dunno.
One explanation is in order to stitch the crime sequence together, again, as was done before - and on 12th October too "I killed those guys in Northern California" or whatever it was.
And yes, Mr Horans right, it was unecessary to say that, especially if there's a lump of shirt in the envelope - no proof req'd.

Anniversary of LHR...

Yep - star's weren't aligned until then. Sagittarius on the cusp of Capricorn. (Sometimes I think you're just mean.)



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:08 pm

The above evidence list states PER KEEL on the last two items with the shirt included.
Who's Keel?

David Allen Keel, "former lab expert with the SFPD" and one-time letters guy, mentioned on page 219 of the Lafferty book.
There's been some doubt about his abilities too, apparently. Not from me though (if he's reading this).



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:19 pm

Hmm, a lump of shirt in the Oct letter along with "I killed those kids in the north bay".

OK, proves you're the killer of Stine, no proof of north bay crimes.

Nov letter, more shirt, plus a 'secret' only he and the VPD know.

So you didn't believe I was the same guy by my Oct., letter, try this on for size.

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:10 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.



onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:48 pm

I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco.
Paul Stine was a delibrate random act, just to mess with the San Francisco Police.
Scared himself didn't he? Went underground with any other murders. Stopped taking
credit for his crimes.
What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac's horrid, sad,
desperate personality in these letters.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:10 am

Tahoe - ah yep, the problem with MO's again, and "signature", eh? If he'd been in it for the souvenirs (as has been suggested about the attack on Paul Stine) then yes, how odd Berryessa is. How odd it is anyway. How odd that a hoaxer manages to turn up to write on a door when a guy with a hood on makes his debut. It's really very vexing.
(Hey! Which thread is this?! It's about the shirt and Stine isn't it! Oh well - press on regardless!)

I feel Zodiac wanted to engage a big time police department such as San Francisco.

Me too. I think he needed a bigger stage, and went looking for one in SF.

What would be the motive for a hoax letter writer? I can hear Zodiac's horrid, sad, desperate personality in these letters.

$64,000 dollar question, that. Although the "voice" in the letter varies, to my mind. At the start of the series it was pretty much all-business. Later it was sometimes gleeful and spiteful, very much about the police force and not about the crimes, and in the Belli letter it at least tries to generate some sort of understanding and sympathy - even though that's entirely false and mocking in my opinion. Last - its quite philosophical and musing; the "little list". Hmmm.

Depending on your view of the writer, I suppose the motive range might be:
He's a mass-murderer getting an extra kick out of terrorism and press attention.
He's a sad nutcase, getting pleasure from associating himself with crimes and killing - a complete fantasist.
He's got some "sensible"underlying motive, such as assisting the Chronicle with their battle for circulation, or generating more resource and assistance for the beleagured Vallejo (and perhaps Napa and SF) police forces, albeit it in an way which is EXTRAORDINARILY self-deceptive and downright warped.

At this point I think that there are elements of all three. Since the hoax letters go SO far, I think that the original motivation grew and perhaps became even more strange and grandiose, over time. But whutdoIknohuh?

Back to the shirt again - I think I need a little timetable of crimes v's letters, and also a reference to which letters referred to which crimes.




onewhoknows, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:48 am

I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine's shirt, after having written the earlier
letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder,
to write on the victims' car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to
do such a thing. And Napa is not very close to San Francisco, different counties, different jurisdictions.

What's the first rule of great drama? IT MUST BE BELIEVABLE. Most likely, only the person committing
these crimes, had access and opportunity on all these levels, to write these letters, and send in clues and
pieces of evidence. Mr. Horan would do his arguement well to produce some handwriting samples, as I have
seen some very close examples to the Zodiac's handwriting here on this forum from a variety of suspects.
It had better be a very good match or Mr. Horan will appear to be the most recent Hoaxer. As my mother
used to say, "Nothing is real. At least nothing you can see." Zodiac depended on this for his continued freedom.




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:52 am

I guess one would have to have had access to Paul Stine's shirt, after having written the earlier letters. And this person happens to be at the scene at Lake Berryessa, at the time of the murder, to write on the victims' car door? Only someone in Law Enforcement would be in a position to
do such a thing.

Agreed. It sounds rather doo-lally doesn't it? But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn't know how many short pieces make 3).

Between ourselves, I'm not very excited about Mr H. producing perfect handwriting examplars, if I'm honest. If he does, great, if he doesn't, no surprise.

I'm much more interested in how the fantastic coincidence of the symbol on the attacker at Berryessa is reconciled, without the writer having been involved at least as an accessory to murder.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:09 pm

But I suppose we should continue to indulge the man. (Even if he doesn't know how many short pieces make 3).

Why?






smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 pm

Ow!!!!



tracers, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:57 pm

As an aside, here is a link to an old eBay listing for SFC article on the Stine letter. It has some pix of the article that people may want to copy and save.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 050wt_1271

I really wasn't sure where to post this and didn't want to start a new thread in the magazine section of the board for this one link.



sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:37 pm

Thank you Tracer's, I wonder who the person was from AZ who paid $222.50 for those papers ?
Very nice for a true Z collector !

The article mentioned that the killer sat in the front seat, yet so many people over the yrs thought he was in the back seat. The note looked as if it was torn along the edges, didn't we see another Z note that had the top and bottom edge done that same way ? I think that one was thought to be teletype paper ?

I am also curious to know if the police asked to have the letter's size changed to protect against copy cats ?



sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:58 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn't take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don't know too many people who didn't have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can't get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia's roommate didn't remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:06 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn't take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don't know too many people who didn't have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can't get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia's roommate didn't remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.[/quote]

One might assume that these were Cecilia's belongings...also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn't be Z's anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT



sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:27 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn't take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don't know too many people who didn't have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can't get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia's roommate didn't remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.[/quote]

One might assume that these were Cecilia's belongings...also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn't be Z's anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT[/quote]



The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940's, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac's blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia's, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi's DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won't let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa's Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana's conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.



Quicktrader, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:43 am

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.

As far as we know he didn't take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don't know too many people who didn't have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can't get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia's roommate didn't remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.

One might assume that these were Cecilia's belongings...also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn't be Z's anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT[/quote]



The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940's, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac's blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia's, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi's DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won't let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa's Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana's conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.[/quote]


Hi Sandy,

that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information.

QT




sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:00 pm

Rather than spend another minute on Horan's theory, I find it far more interesting, that the date these pieces were put together for that picture was in 1997 ?

Something else I need some feed back on, is that after the 'one' large piece of shirt was torn off,then used to wipe down the cab. The killer cuts the 3 smaller ones that were cut from that piece. It looks to me that those 3 were cut across the top and bottom of each piece with what is known as pinking shears ? You lady's who have sewn will know what those are.
Notice the edges are shaped vvvvvvvvv ? Not really frayed. That sort of reminded me of the edges that Zodiac had used on the peek through the pines card ?

For you men who may not know what pinking shears are , they are scissors used by sewers who want to protect the edges of material from fraying, they cut in a v shape , like shown above. If I am correct ,then there should be no doubt that the pines card was the work of the Zodiiac.



tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:26 pm

Maybe he tore it and then used the pinking shears to cut it before mailing them? Part does appear to be torn, and part cut.

The Pines card edges were used with the hole punch the sender used to punch in the hole (circle for the cross) in the card.



Zamantha, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:14 pm

Was there some published doubt about the Oct. 'north bay' claim that he had to address again in Nov?

I have also wondered if newspapers published any doubts about Lake Berryessa.

Very unlike Zodiac to kill again so quickly after LB. Was he doubted so he said, "fine...I will get physical proof this time!"? He certainly didn't take anything from his victims at LB and had every opportunity.[/quote]

As far as we know he didn't take anything from his Lake B. victims, but Napa PD could be holding that information from the public ? I need to read again what was taken into evidence. If she was missing a wrist watch , I would like to know that. I don't know too many people who didn't have one back then. Sounds pretty crazy, but someone left me a nice red heart necklace, with the name Cecilia done in white on it. I lent it to a private Det from San Francisco, he then told me he misplaced it ! Thank goodness I did put it on a copy machine before I handed it over to him. I am sure that most people are very skeptical about the things that were put in my car in Napa right after the stabbing. But there was a girls watch that was left with that costume, at the bottom of the ammo can filled with felt tipped pens. I can't get an answer from Napa or Riverside if their victims are missing a watch ? And Cecilia's roommate didn't remember what she wore. I would put money on the idea that the killer did take something.[/quote]

One might assume that these were Cecilia's belongings...also the small book, no? Did you give all these things away? You once mentioned you had it at some safe bank depot, Think there is no big thing with making one or more pictures of it? 99.999% the blood on it wouldn't be Z's anyway and it would be interesting what she had read that day.

QT[/quote]



The small book that was like a Catholic bible, I would think could have belonged to Cheri Jo Bates, I still have it and the watch. The other book is a old dictionary from the early 1940's, that is the one that has what looks like blood on it. I doubt it is the Zodiac's blood, but I do have a gut feeling that it is a mixture of both Bryan and Cecilia's, I do still have that. A lot of what I had I gave to SFPD Jim Deasy in Jan 1990. Not knowing that they could care less about what I gave them, because it did not pertain to their case. I also gave them a glass that has my poi's DNA and hand prints on it. They still have it all , and won't let me have it back.
Zamantha has taken pictures of all of what I have left and sent it in a email to Napa's Patrick McMahon ( Sorry not sure of that spelling ) Maybe when Zam is not to busy ,she can post them on my thread ? It was after my emails, and Katana's conversation to that Napa Det. he then contacted Tom V. and read his message board.[/quote]


Hi Sandy,

that would be really great (pictures)., thanks for your kind information.

QT
[/quote]

Taking this thread "Off Topic" But here's the link to the pictures, Sandy spoke of on page 5. http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... andy-s-poi



Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:25 pm

I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy!

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... 1969#34018



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:16 pm

I have posted a larger copy of the Nov. 12, 1969 Chronicle article that Duckking posted on page 1 of this thread. There were three Zodiac articles in the issue of the newspaper that day. The first mentions the shirt piece contained in one of the letters, though it is not clear which letter, Nov. 8 or Nov. 9, the shirt piece was in. Talk of a Luger in the second article, Smithy!

D. thanks again for this - fabulous.
"Over there" on that thread, I said yes, and the Lugers wrong! I should say so over here too, shouldn't I. Should I?
Whilst I haven't seen the ballistics report from BRS yet - and none of us have - it's now been referred to by two different authors with (I presume) some inside knowledge. Both are alledging the BRS weapon was a Browning Hi-Power.
Forgive me for spamming this thread (and the other one!) with this info.
I'm trying to confirm it.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:45 am

If your still counting shirt pieces I have another article for you.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com ... -ten#34172

This article says that several of the letters contained swatches of the shirt. Will it never end? BTW this information is contrary to two different DOJ reports which both say two letters contained pieces of the bloody shirt.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:40 pm

OK, back to the shirt. I found the source of the color pics of the shirt pieces. Here's the video, it's towards the end. The narrator explains something about two pieces mailed in, then a third, with a picture of this chap apparently pulling out piece 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xE1veHknVo





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:55 pm

Well done mate, but they SAY three pieces, and only show two. I'd swear, but I'm not allowed to.



traveller1st, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Burger Me!!!!!!

Took one for the UK team lol.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:33 am

Good work with the burger, Trav!
Damnit - two pieces. Horan's dodged another one here.
The piece that's in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it's "C". The last piece the guy got in the video.
The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it's the right way up.
There's a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" - the same one as at bottom right.
I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN!



I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can't.
Oh well, live and learn. :clown:




sandy betts, Subject: Third piece of shirt Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:03 am

I don't know what burger me means , but burger me too ! Make It a double.

Could anyone tell me what is in his left hand that looks like a third piece of the shirt ? Look at the video again at 3:13.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:37 am

Sandy you're so right. Make mine a double too - with cheese!

I think that's piece "C" he has in his hand. That's "B" that's lying on the table already although sideways, annoyingly, rather than the right way up. It needs rotating anti-clockwise ninety degrees. (It's SO sad. I'm seeing these in my sleep).

If you're wondering why "C" appears to be completely rock hard, like a piece of board, I am too. Is that what happens to blood-stained shirts? I suppose it might be dry and brittle now. * shrug *
Otherwise I can only presume it's backed with something, or they've conducted some other experiment with it - beyond cutting a slice off the side to make me look like an idiot, that is. (I'm taking that personally, I realise.)




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 am

Sorry folks - all this is said already I realise, but a summary is required - and there's room for doubt, as usual!!
(Tracers asked me about this on the "Tommy Horan" thread. It's her fault then. But since this is independent of Mr Horan's whacky theory, just something he's brought to light, I think it deserves this thread).

Here we go again, then!
The wonderful photograph of pieces "B" and "C" shows the TWO pieces returned in the letters, we're told. Piece "A" has never been seen again.

All photographs in the public domain SEEM to show those two pieces - only. Some places they're in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically.
Here. "B" and "C" in place, and another colour shot of "C", called "John's piece", of the type which was driving me to drink.



Important things to bear in mind, if you're shirt chasing.

There are two rectangular holes cut into piece "C" - now - and one rectangle cut into piece "B". I presume as the result of some sort of testing.
They can help you line up what you find on the net, and to recognise each piece. Again, some places they're photographed in colour, sometimes upside-down or transposed vertically. Sometimes they are seriously fore-shortened, making them look tiny. (It's a wonderful life.)

Secondly - and pretty darn importantly to avoid Smithy trap number two... Piece "C" seems to have had a stripe cut off. :affraid:
I'm still looking for pieces because I'm still not sure I believe the "stripes been cut off" thing, Stare at the photo and maybe you'll see why....






bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:51 am

Smithy, watch this video again, fast forward past Fouke. You will see the tech looking at the envelope in his hand, which matches the two already on the table, and begin to set down whatever is in his left hand, a portion of which is visible against the backdrop of the envelop in the capture below, the last frame before they cut away. I think it's either a third shirt piece or a cheeseburger, my money's on the former. So why didn't they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn't figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xE1veHknVo






tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:50 am

So why didn't they show a shot of that piece along with the other two? Probably because they didn't figure on a bunch of nut jobs dissecting this a decade later.

Hey...speak for yourself! :tongue:

Seriously, I don't think there is any shirt conspiracy here.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:04 pm

Bentley - troublesome ain't it!
Can we get more shirt pictures in, and put them in a pile?
I think there's some kind of conspiracy, preventing me eating nuts and cheeseburgers. (I may have misunderstood what you've said).




bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:31 pm

That footage is from ABC Primetime, circa 2003, or so it says. Apparently you can buy the whole episode online, though it may show no more than what we see.



Seagull, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 am

I've found another article which mentions the shirt pieces. This one says there were two shirt pieces in the Stine letter. I view the newspaper articles as a last resort for information compared to what is in the official reports ie: police reports, CA DOJ reports and the FBI files. Although, even the official reports occasionally contradict each other.





tahoe27, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:24 pm

Lol...yes, I agree Seagull. Great find, but we know how these darn newspapers are!

"Enclosed were two pieces of the shirt of taxi driver Paul Steine".



, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:39 pm

Good work with the burger, Trav!
Damnit - two pieces. Horan's dodged another one here.
The piece that's in the Chronicle for 18th October is on the bottom left, and it's "C". The last piece the guy got in the video.
The rectangular holes line up nicely, now it's the right way up.
There's a whole stripe missing from the black and white version "C" - the same one as at bottom right.
I guess law enforcement chopped a strip off it. DAMN!



I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to find another recognisably different piece in the public domain, and I can't.
Oh well, live and learn. :clown:

Smithy,

I see no possible way that John's piece is piece C. For one, there do not appear to be any rectangular cuts at all in the color piece... and no matter how ya flip and rotate, those stains simply do not match up.

-A



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:47 pm

You think I've found that extra piece already thebigZ? Good - I'll stop!
I wonder what they treated the pieces with that made those blotches become so diverse btw? Even"B" is barely recognisable isn't it?
(You think that's B? I think it is.)

Seagull - thanks again. You think there really was a reporter at the Chronicle called "Baron Muller?"
Seems hard to believe!




, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:01 am

Smithy,

I found a clear pic of the missing piece (piece A)... sent you a PM.



It is most certainly NOT piece C.

From this video @37:32...

And it's labeled "A"!!!Cold Case Files - The Zodiac Killer

[smithy]

smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:10 am

Ah, at last! It's the holy ruddy grail, I tell you!
From what you say in PM it's just where Bentley said it might be too eh?
So much for the "stripe cut off" BS I was forced to resort to in the face of Mr Horans scornful dismissals, eh?
Right - it needs to be posted "over there". First things first though, a decent graphic putting the pieces about where they should be..... Guesswork on "A" may be needed - although if it's "John's piece" then where he's fitting it in the AP promo photo would be the place, no?
Bravo big man!

Edit: Second thoughts - let's play graphics second.
Good stuff, once again. A reasonably new vid. eh? Awesome.......



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:44 am

Great find bigZ. I knew that wasn't a cheeseburger...

Those rectangles were perhaps cut out after the 1969 photos for testing done later. Odd they seem to be cut only out of white stripe sections. Did they find visible evidence there, prints?



, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:48 am

Great find bigZ. I knew that wasn't a cheeseburger...

Those rectangles were perhaps cut out after the 1969 photos for testing done later. Odd they seem to be cut only out of white stripe sections. Did they find visible evidence there, prints?

I think it was just because the blood stains showed more clearly on the white stripes. I'd assumed they were going to test some of the blood (DNA, etc.).



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:49 am

Bentley - ahhhhh, no cheeseburgers, no nuts.
ONE of those "slots" looks drawn on to me (?) as if to redact some writing (I know that sounds odd). And what's with the writing anyway?
Why test it intrusively? But......

YES - that's John's piece - piece"A", and it was called that because it was the first to arrive (how marvellously non-mysterious), and it turned up in the "Stine" letter of October13th.
It makes sense Criminologist John Williams was photographed with it - it's the only piece that had been returned at the time. Wow.
It will force a re-think of warp and weft cutting, Dear Editor's truthfulness and many other things I suspect. Hmmmmmm!



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:31 am

I don't see that either vertical side of A matches up with the right side verticals of B or C, based on stripes or blood stains. Meaning that there would be another piece between them, and piece A is further towards the right side of the back of the shirt. Meaning that whoever sent in the shirt pieces took the whole enchilada, didn't leave one piece dangling in the middle between B/C and A for someone else to come along and grab.




smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:00 pm

I don't see that either vertical side of A matches up with the right side verticals of B or C, based on stripes or blood stains. Meaning that there would be another piece between them, and piece A is further towards the right side of the back of the shirt. Meaning that whoever sent in the shirt pieces took the whole enchilada, didn't leave one piece dangling in the middle between B/C and A for someone else to come along and grab.

Now Bentley old stick, it's a large shirt-tail but that's no reason to take such big jumps with it!
If you look at the "John hunched over the shirt doing clever stuff" photo, he's got the piece toward one side of the rest - I think (it's upside down if I'm right), over toward the "B" and "C" pieces. That leaves plenty of shirt to go around.
If I were going to speculate too (oh alright then), and if we're still trying to play hoax, I'd say that whoever took the first piece took less than we might have thought before, which is perhaps even a good thing, hmm? Who tears NEARLY all the way across a shirt and then stops?
ANYWAY - it's Mr Horan who will have to duck and dive on this one, so I'll leave it to him before I get my striped shirt out of the cupboard again and start taking photos.
Y'know he replied to my initial concerns on the issue by saying he "could understand my confusion", and that he has no such qualms since he has the high-res photos but sadly, no rights to publish them. Can he have been BS'ing me? Surely not!



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:10 pm

Oy! Actually it fits against "B" quite nicely, well the bloodstains do - it's upside-down, here,
It's also a bit tough to see that with the yellow-background "B" - much easier to see on the black and white "B + C" photo.
I haven't got a decent drawing package to rotate it with, - and so I have to play in Word and then save an image, but I'll give it a go.....



There.
Or am I drunk again?



doranchak, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:32 pm

Here's a good lineup of the picture of the John's piece against the still from the video:





smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:35 pm

Ah D., that's bloomin' marvellous stuff.
The flashing on and off is making me froth a bit - but see how there's no blood line-up on the top right corner? Well well!
Either John has it the wrong way up and in the wrong place, or I do. And he's a qualified criminologist. Hmmm.



sandy betts, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:52 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?



, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:05 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?

He wasn't necessarily showing (definitively) where the piece went. There are a couple different pictures with that piece oriented in different directions. Fair to say John may have been trying to figure it out for himself when the pic was taken.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:07 pm

Fair enough, Big guy. What do you think of it next to "B"?
And about the bloodstains - yes, well, and hmmmm.

BTW, please don't watch the rest of that video, anyone, since it's full of utter baloney, like GS saying "He called it 'His game of outdoor chess" and also "He gave them clues, he told them when he was going to strike" . It will upset you, probably. Yeeeech.



, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:23 pm

Fair enough, Big guy. What do you think of it next to "B"?
And about the bloodstains - yes, well, and hmmmm.

BTW, please don't watch the rest of that video, anyone, since it's full of utter baloney, like GS saying "He called it 'His game of outdoor chess" and also "He gave them clues, he told them when he was going to strike" . It will upset you, probably. Yeeeech.

I agree that it may slide right in next to B. Blood stains seem to match up nicely.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:36 pm

It shows that there were three parts of the shirt sent, but that a part is still missing I think? Knowing what we do about serial killers and Zodiac. I think Zodiac has kept a part of the shirt as a memento, but that he tore only one large piece, and split it up later in sections to mail with his letters. Remember also that he used that piece to wipe down the cab , so how could the blood stains line up to the rest of the shirt after doing that ?

Yes, most definitely a large section of shirt is still unaccounted for. Pieces were mailed in Oct., Nov. and Dec. of '69. Twice to prove it was Stine's killer and once to prove authorship to Belli. The next letter would not be received until April of '70. I think by that time the shirt pieces had served their purpose and were no longer needed for provenance, whatever became of the rest.



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Bentley - have you made sense of all the references which say there was or wasn't a piece, or two, in (each) letter? Wanna share?
I thought I had that figured out, but then I went off on a shirt chase, and now I don't know.
Do you take into account that one of them says "ask the Vallejo cop about my electric gunsight" too? Just wonderin'.



bentley, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:52 pm

I thought this was explanatory enough Smithy, you see a problem with it do you?



Gun sight reference in the Nov '69 letter? I took it to mean: "The shirt piece proves I killed Stine, the electric gun sight proves I'm the guy who killed in the North Bay and calls himself Zodiac". Therefore, the Zodiac killed Stine.

You're the whiz at communication, have I missed something?



smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:13 am

Well, that's fine with me. I think we started the thread with that view, no?
When we looked at a Chronicle article from Tahoe, we doubted it, then we looked at Seagull's '72 article, also from the Chronicle (Avery, no less), which seemed to be saying "there were two shirt pieces in the Stine letter", and further doubted it. Ah me, the Chronicle, wrong, wrong, wrong.

I like this lists "view", too. From SFPD to the Feds. It's the same, but perhaps a bit clearer? Cut down version:



And pieces went into these letters:
13th October "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt"
9th November "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." - and....
20th December "Dear Melvin, This is the Zodiac speaking I wish you a happy Christmass."

I'm pleased with this, you guys. There's very little physical evidence in the case, let's face it, so sorting this out's great. All three ABC shirt pictures haven't been properly oriented before, "in public" I don't think, and it's been a puzzle for a while. You can tell that from the photos which are floating around with numbers on the stripes; so whey-hey and well done.








smithy, Subject: Re: Shirt Pieces Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:29 am

And pieces went into these letters:
13th October "I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington St + Maple St last night, to prove this here is a blood stained piece of his shirt"
9th November "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people." - and....
20th December "Dear Melvin, This is the Zodiac speaking I wish you a happy Christmass."

Wrong! Phooey.
The Dripping Pen card had the second piece of shirt in, not the letter. It was sent on 8th November.
Jeez, finally.
Why the two communications, one day apart?
I wonder if there was something in the Chronicle (say) of the 8th November, which prompted the letter?

[Victor]

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys.....and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don't think we have that here and don't want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

[traveller1st]

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys.....and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don't think we have that here and don't want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

I don't know if that instruction would be in certain reports necessarily or if it is then maybe we just haven't seen them. Would that sort of thing be more 'internal memo' territory rather than reports?

Take Berryessa, I think I'm right in thinking that "by knife" was withheld, was it in any reports? I mean that information I know I haven't seen any instruction about withholding the info but I'm just wondering if it was mentioned in the reports - it probably was, wasn't it? I should check but it's nearly bedtime. I'm just wondering how another LEA handled withheld info in regards to their reports. SFPD may have had a different policy whereby withheld info was left out of reports. Probably due to leaks to the press and such activities. If they wanted to make sure something stayed withheld they probably had to keep it secret and contained whereas maybe smaller agencies didn't have such problems, or at least not enough of them to have think and operate that way.

[Victor]

Well, I believe this other investigator is theorizing that someone besides The Zodiac authored the Z letters and a certain S.F. newspaper may or may not have accurately reported the piece(s) of Stine's shirt.

[Tahoe27]

We are extremely limited as far as the SFPD's reports. It could be it is mentioned, we just have not seen it.

[smithy]

I apologize for asking but does someone know why the fact that Mr. Paul Stine is missing a large piece of his shirt not mentioned in the police report? They mention (ad lib) "victim has no money, no wallet, no keys.....and suspect may be in possession of keys and wallet". I assume if they wanted to withhold the detail of the possibly missing fabric, that or the instruction to withhold that information would have been mentioned in a report somewhere and not left to wild speculation by another author/investigator whose blog I was reading last night.

Pardon for not posting a link to the document(s) as I don't think we have that here and don't want to impose on Mr. Butterfield and Mr. Voigt.

Vic - no sensible answer to that. I've no doubt there's a nice long discussion about this somewhere, but we ain't got access to it.

Now, some people believe that the shirt's entire tail was removed after Paul was undressed and in the morgue - and his clothes were in the evidence locker. That it was placed face down on a table and then cut through with a scalpel, in a nice straight line, by some miscreant, it's no surprise that it's not discussed, then, maybe. (Maybe not).

[Victor]

I hope I'm not mucking threads up but:
01. this shirttail dilemma, 02. the statement by The Zodiac at LB that he was an escaped convict, but wears an elaborate disguise in broad daylight to kill a couple, both for reasons unknown, before he makes for Mexico in their car which he doesn't take after all his trouble, and calls the police on himself, 03. then one month later supposedly the same "convict on the run" appears without his black hood, with totally different hair, looking years older, and maybe a few lbs lighter, to kill the next lone cabbie that came his way in the middle of San Francisco on a Saturday night, 04. then possibly later gets scraps of the murder victim's shirt somehow to mail so the public know he's back at work? 05. And apparently stops killing and writing, almost, altogether two years later.

Okay but this sounds a bit contrived.

[smithy]

Yes, it does.