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So your theory Endoftheworld is that Zodiac left the cab, went down the block and hid in the bushes. Just at that moment his double happens to walk up and bump into Fouke. The guy tells him that he saw a man run down the street with a gun, even though that didn't happen. He then bolts it out of there before the police come back and never says another word about it.

Since he must be hiding in the bushes otherwise he couldn't have seen and heard this conversation, Zodiac then writes into the paper to say that it was actually him that Fouke talked to, knowing that it wasn't.

Ok, sure.

EndOfTheWorld wrote:

Norse wrote:Yes, by all means. Perhaps he was a high ranking foreign dignitary who was out on the razz, as they say, and didn't fancy getting involved in a murder investigation. Or perhaps he was – say – Mickey Mouse (the Welsh version), or another famous cartoon character, whose career might've been compromised if the press had learned that he'd accidentally become a witness in the Zodiac case – of all things.

Of course, cartoon figures don't actually physically exist, and can't walk down a city street.

All I'm saying is it's not absolute fact that the guy Fouke and his partner saw was the Z. Fouke and/or his partner may or may not have talked to this guy. The man the kids saw in the taxi was the Z, however.

It is as easy to question that Zodiac was the person the kids saw as well. We actually don't know how long the taxicab sat at Washington and Cherry before the teenagers looked out of the window. The only person the teenagers saw was a man likely tearing the shirt and wiping the cab down. They never saw this man kill Paul Stine. A second person could have shot Stine and his accomplice stayed behind to remove the shirt and tidy up. So the statement "The man the kids saw in the taxi was the Z" can also be argued. The man who exited the scene prior to the kids observing, may have been the letter writer and Z. But any scenario can be created if we try hard enough. Besides you haven't answered the question of why Fouke headed up Arguello, his words, not mine. He ultimately wasn't responding to the crime scene. Why.

After rereading this whole thread, UKSPY does have a point. Why was Fouke heading west instead of east?

Graymsmith talked a lot to Toschi, he should know all about this. In fact he says that Fouke's report was submitted to Lee and Toschi on Oct. 16. Who knows where he got that information but he says that they stopped and talked to Zodiac. He also says that they got the call at 10:00 PM, and that Pellisetti didn't arrive on the scene until 10:50. No surprise that he's full of crap...

But my point is that this was in Zodiac '86. It's just a few years later that Fouke gave that interview and the version that is different from all others, including the relatively recent Graysmith account.

I don't like to speculate, but if we just chalk that up to another Fouke mix up and simply have him interpose two different events: His arrival on the scene, and then his later search of the Presidio, then it adds up. I don't see any other way for it to make sense.

Curiously, Graysmith says that they searched the Presidio because people called in and said they saw the suspect running through there...not just based on Fouke's idea of where he went. What the heck? If that happened, then what was the description of that person?

In summary; Time of attack recorded as 9.55 pm. Both officers receive the initial broadcast at 9.58 pm.

Zodiac leaves crime scene at 9.56 pm, arrives near corner of Jackson and Maple at 9.59 pm. It is a 3 minute walk.
Donald Fouke responds from Presidio Avenue/Washington St 9.58 pm. It takes 1 minute to arrive at Jackson and Maple.
Time now 9.59 pm. Zodiac and Donald Fouke cross paths.
Zodiac directs Donald Fouke towards Arguello. Time now approximately 9.59:30 pm.
Donald Fouke heads up to Arguello. Receives update to WMA at 10.00 pm. Thinks crikey, that may be the man I just spoke to heading up Maple towards the Presidio, where HE stated he last saw him going.
Donald Fouke heads into West Pacific Avenue to Julius Khan playground for a cursory search. Time now 10.01 pm.
Donald Fouke finds nothing, heads back to Cherry. Time now 10.02 pm.

Armond Pelissetti receives the initial broadcast at 9.58 pm. Arrives at crime scene 9.58:30 pm.
Armond Pelissetti ushers the kids, checks on Stine, gets the amended description and rushes to radio to update to WMA. This takes 90 secs approximately. So Armond Pelissetti gives the update to WMA at 10.00 pm.
Up above we stated Donald Fouke received this update at 10.00 pm, this tallies perfectly with Armond Pelissetti.
Cherry Street takes 1 minute to walk, but Armond Pelissetti is checking alcoves and parked cars so "he doesn't get his head blown off." So he goes half the speed and arrives at the top of Cherry at 10.02 pm. Exactly the time above that Donald Fouke arrived after his search for the man at Julius Khan playground. Donald Fouke and Armond Pelissetti are now at the top of Cherry at 10.02 pm.

Zodiac is not a fool though, he knows Donald Fouke last saw him heading into Maple at approx 9.59:30 pm. So he re-enters Jackson Street and heads to Spruce Street, arriving at 10.01:30 pm. It takes 2 minutes to walk this block. Donald Fouke saw and spoke to him by 9.59:30 pm, thus explaining what time he arrives at Spruce.
Neighbors near Spruce are alerted to Donald Fouke's patrol car siren arriving at Julius Khan playground at 10.01 pm (time stated above), so look out of their windows.
Seconds later after Donald Fouke has finished his cursory search by Julius Khan playground, he leaves.
Zodiac enters the park hastily, seen by these neighbors, who are still nosing out of their windows and reported as such here. The timeline fits perfectly.



This is why the man Donald Fouke stopped had to be Zodiac. Because Donald Fouke saw only one person, not two, and the description given by Donald Fouke virtually matched the teenagers, and Zodiac is the only person to have any reason to direct Donald Fouke away from the crime scene, which he did.

At this point my estimate has increased to a 99.5% probability that the guy Fouke saw was the Z.

The sfpd compodite is arguably the best composite of someone possibly being z we have..you can debate if in fact it is z....the lb composite is arguably the best composite of someone possibly being z we have..you can debate if in fact it is z..your not going to catch z with either composite..only been trying for 46 years and as of yet..zilch..z still walks..z still wins..and yea that irks me...

my opinion is F talked to a white dude that probably very likely may have been z..couple cops doin a composite..yea i will go with that yet my doubts still persist..KJ liked the sfpd composite..at this time i think she was with z so i will go with that until further evidence becomes known

What you propose makes some sense, UKS. It would explain fairly neatly why Fouke (according to the one statement - which we then have to take as the truth) was headed for Arguello. The latter has always been very problematic, as discussed many times in this section: If he was - simply - heading for Arguello based on the original dispatch, well: that makes no sense. He would have been headed for the crime scene initially, not for Arguello (and thus the park).

So, he must have received new/updated information between receiving the original dispatch - and deciding to head to the park (via Arguello). That seems pretty much undeniable.

The question remains the same: Do we believe him when he says that he didn't talk to Z? The arguments pro and con there have been dealt with so I won't repeat any of that.

If we choose to believe Fouke's basic testament (he rolled past Z but did not talk to him), we can speculate as follows:

When he receives the updated information (via the radio - he doesn't actually get it directly from Pelissetti, that part never happened, his memory is deceiving him there and/or he's getting a well known story mixed up with what actually happened), he immediately realizes that the suspect has made a run for the park, and consequently heads for Arguello.

In short, he reacts to an updated dispatch - one that would have been going out at just about the time when he was about to make a turn on Jackson/Cherry (that makes sense in itself - it's the contradictory statements about getting the update from Pelissetti directly which muddies the waters, but the latter can be explained: he's simply confused, his memory fails him decades later, none of the people involved realized they were dealing with Z at the time - and so forth, the usual arguments).

As for newspaper reports, I don't put too much stock in them. They tend to get details mixed up as badly as Fouke and Pelissetti (or Graysmith). If someone actually witnessed Z running into the park (and no mistake), I find it odd that we haven't heard anything more substantial about this over the years.

Hi Norse, the way I understand it, is that Donald Fouke got the 2nd radio call via Pelissetti (the amended description) heading towards Arguello. I know exactly what you are saying-did he receive another message before he hit the corner of Jackson and Cherry. Of course this could explain what he's doing by Arguello, but the problem is I have never read or seen anything that suggests this, so I'm going on what we know, that Fouke got the amended update heading away from the crime scene. If so, then it is likely he was directed there by Zodiac.
I have measured the distance in meters from just past Jackson and Maple, to Arguello Boulevard and down West Pacific Avenue to Julius Khan playground, and calculated how long it would take traveling approximately 30-40 mph in a cop car. I have compared this with Zodiac from that section ofJackson and Maple again, walking time along Jackson to Spruce Street (the one and a half blocks Zodiac stated he entered the park). The time is virtually identical.
This is why I believe the October 12th San Francisco Chronicle article, stating witnesses saw a man running into JKP.
Donald Fouke, lights flashing and sirens on, heads down West Pacific Avenue in a cursory search by Julius Khan Park. Zodiac now reaches Spruce Street and sees/hears Fouke's cop car. So do all the neighbors overlooking JKP from Spruce St and inevitably look out of their windows. Donald Fouke finding nothing returns back to Cherry. Zodiac seeing Fouke retreat and feeling the heat, dashes across into the park for solace. But the neighbors or eyewitnesses are still stirred, and see the Zodiac enter the park. The timeline fits perfectly from the three teenagers to Donald Fouke to Julius Khan playground. This is why I'm convinced he entered the park.
After his initial brush with Fouke, by Jackson and Maple, he likely pretended to enter WPA via Maple, but neither this or Cherry are thoroughfares. At night there appears no passage to the park, covered by shrubbery and a retaining wall. Which is why I believe Zodiac reentered Jackson and headed for the first thoroughfare - Spruce.
By the time Donald Fouke eventually returns to Cherry, about 3.30 - 4.00 minutes have elapsed from the first radio broadcast, exactly the time required by Pelissetti to arrive at the crime scene, do his business, cautiously walk up Cherry, where he meets Fouke.
Oh, and Zodiac's description of his park antics, giving measurements, like over 2+ blocks, 150 ft away and motorcycles going from south to northwest, tell us exactly his route through the park that night. Dogs were assembled at JKP and to the west. Zodiac had only one logical escape path in the park-eastwards, which he described perfectly in the Bus Bomb letter.

Also you would be talking of a very small time window of 10-15 seconds for Fouke to receive an amended description of the suspect ie; After passing Zodiac, and before reaching Jackson/Cherry. So close, that he may as well have quickly reversed, turned round or pursued on foot, as opposed to travel all the way to Arguello and down WPA. That is basically giving the suspect a free pass to escape.

UKSpycatcher wrote:Also you would be talking of a very small time window of 10-15 seconds for Fouke to receive an amended description of the suspect ie; After passing Zodiac, and before reaching Jackson/Cherry. So close, that he may as well have quickly reversed, turned round or pursued on foot, as opposed to travel all the way to Arguello and down WPA. That is basically giving the suspect a free pass to escape.

Well, what he says is this: He realized (upon receiving the amended description) a) that the guy he had just passed was the perpetrator and b) that the guy had attempted to fool him (by pretending to enter a residence - in reality he had made a dash for the park as soon as Fouke was out of sight). Now, it’s not unreasonable as such that he would have considered it more practical to simply speed up and keep driving in the same direction, rather than backing up or turning his vehicle around. So, that part I don’t have a problem with: But, yes, he must have received the amended description very shortly after passing Z - that much is obvious. But then again, there isn’t anything in the time line which positively rules that possibility out: In your time line above Fouke passes Z thirty seconds prior to the amended description going out, which is based on your estimate for what Pelissetti did after arriving at the crime scene and on how long it would have taken Fouke to reach the encounter point (where he met Z). Those estimates could be off by thirty seconds in total - I don’t see anything written in stone there: We don’t know exactly when Pelissetti got on the radio, nor exactly where Fouke was when the original dispatch went out.

As for possible witnesses, here’s my problem: Yes, the dogs could have been sent into the park based on a witness actually seeing someone fleeing into that area. But then again, they would have sent the dogs into the park regardless, based on what seems to have been everybody’s natural assumption (the teens, Pelissetti, Fouke), viz. that the killer was headed to the park. They all believed he had escaped in that direction (and that is what the cops would have told the reporters too). Now, people have been discussing the Stine details for decades - but to my knowledge nobody has ever been able identify any other actual witnesses apart from the teens (and the 8 year old kid, whatever that business amounts to - but the kid didn’t witness Z enter the park). I find that odd: The lack of information is notorious (hardly any reports compared to the other crime scenes), and here’s something which looks easy enough to establish/verify, but nobody’s been able to do it.

What we do know, is eyewitnesses seeing a man running into the park, a description similar to the Zodiac. But there is no circumstantial evidence whatsoever for Zodiac entering a vehicle.
Regarding Fouke - this is exactly what he said in the 2007 documentary;
"We turned west on Jackson Street, as we approached Maple Street I noticed on the north side of the street a white male adult. We slowed down as we passed him, I don't know, we we're still rolling, saw that it was a white male, step on the gas, 5, 10, 15 seconds tops from first spotting him to passing him. He sort of looked down, perhaps this lumbering gait, stumbling along, like a semi-limp might have come up in my mind, because he was putting his head down when he spotted the police car, and turned into the entrance way of a house, and by entrance way I mean stairs that are leading up that are concrete to a path, that leads to a front door. Never saw him get to the top of the stairs. You want the address of that residence, 3712 Jackson Street."
He stated "Never saw him get to the top of the stairs.", so that is effectively the last time he set eyes on Zodiac, if this account were true. He couldn't have seen him come back down the stairs, head along Jackson to Maple, because he states categorically that the last time he saw him, he hadn't reached the top of the stairs.
Bearing this versions account, if he last saw the man heading up the stairs, even if he got the update before Jackson/Cherry, why was he heading up Arguello to West Pacific Avenue to the park. He last saw the man heading UP the stairs to 3712 Jackson Street. This makes the park search and the ignoring of this residence even more outrageous. The reason is because the 3712 Jackson Street story is fiction.