Zodiackillersite.com

UK...

The timeline for this never has worked out. Some things we just don't know. Some things I think we have to assume from what we do know.

We don't know where P was when he received the call, he has never stated, only said he was close, very close to Wash./Cherry. Closer than F when he received the transmission? I doubt it.
We do know where F was when he received the dispatch. I've always held the dispatch F is answering is a different one than what P responded to. Here's why I've come to that conclusion. F says when he received the call he was approaching the Washington/Presidio intersection. If F thought he was the responding officer, he would have turned left onto Washington and been at Cherry within 45 seconds of hearing the call. He doesn't do that, he goes to Jackson and turns left, cause he knows P has already responded and is on his way to the scene. And P may already be at the scene, when F gets the call. The timeline actually has a possibility to work if P is already on the scene. I have it documented here how long it took us in our reenactments of F's travels up Jackson, and you're correct it's not very long. Trying to do it from memory here but I think it was more like 75 secs., not a long time frame for sure. Whether F and Zelm's spoke with Z from a timeline perspective adds very little, maybe like 5 secs. From the time they encounter Z to Cherry and Jackson is about 5-7 seconds.
Now P's movements...He pulls up to Cherry & Washington and leaves his squad car facing the cab and somewhat blocking Cherry. He sees the kids approaching the cab, he runs to them, and escorts them back to their house, to the front door. P says he has no idea where the robber is that's why he escorts the kids back to their front door. So P gets updates from the kids while he is with them, finds out robber is a white guy, not a black guy, and last seen heading N. on Cherry. P then heads over to cab, looks inside, and sees Stine, so now he knows it's a homicide, not a robbery. I'm sure P goes around the cab to where Stine is lying and checks him out. Then P says "I couldn't get back to the squad car quick enough to report what I now knew", to update dispatch, perp is white, not black, it's a homicide not a robbery. Does he actually do that? Or does he immediately head down Cherry looking for the killer? I really don't know. I would think if he reported that updated info to dispatch, they would be reporting that kind of update before P got out of his car. And thus F would know this at that point, but he doesn't get that message. So maybe P doesn't go to his car first figuring it's better for him to try and catch this killer. Maybe P has his partner do it. We just don't know those details.
But if we take what we know up to this point with P, how much time has elapsed since he pulled up? If F got the call at the same time, he'd already be at Cherry and Jackson, even if he spent 5 secs talking to Z. and P hasn't even started to search Cherry yet. The time line just doesn't work with them answering the same call, and we can't make it fit.
So again to me the only timeline that makes any sense at all is that when F gets the call P is already on site. It really is amazing the short amount of time we're talking about here. From when F first sees Z coming down Jackson, the amount of time to when F and Z are at the same place on Jackson is like 3 secs. That's hard to imagine, but that's what it is.

The slim possibility exists that the man Fouke saw was an innocent citizen just walking around for whatever reason. It wasn't that late at night. Later they came across the "man with a dog." It was a fairly densely populated area in a big city. Then you ask: "why didn't the innocent man come forward and tell his story?" Maybe he hates cops. Maybe he was in fact wanted for some other crime. Maybe he was an escaped prisoner. Maybe he just didn't want to get involved.

It was probably the Z but not definitely.

End of The World.....

The problem with saying maybe it wasn't Z that Fouke saw, is that the clothes the guy Fouke saw matched the kids description of Z. but if that isn't enough, it was Z who first went public with the Fouke encounter in the bus bomb Letter on 11/9/69. That secured that the one Fouke saw was Z.

Bayarea60s wrote:End of The World.....

The problem with saying maybe it wasn't Z that Fouke saw, is that the clothes the guy Fouke saw matched the kids description of Z. but if that isn't enough, it was Z who first went public with the Fouke encounter in the bus bomb Letter on 11/9/69. That secured that the one Fouke saw was Z.

The description does not completely match the kids' description. Besides, it was basically an average-looking guy. As far as the Z writing the letter, he could conceivably have ducked into a nearby house and observed what Fouke was doing to the innocent passerby. Or he could have learned through the rumor mill what happened. Or he could have taken a lucky guess.

Probably was the Z, but it's not an absolute certainty.

End of the World.

In lieu of evidence that discounts your statement, "Probably was Z, but it's not an absolute certainty". It is an absolute certainty, with evidence to back it up. We lack enough absolute certainties in this case, but this is a certainty. So did Fouke or Zelms speak to Z? Only the 3 of them could ever answer that, and after Jan 1970, Zelms is killed so it only leaves Z and Fouke to confirm or deny. And since we haven't been able to ask Z any more questions we have only Fouke's version to believe. I do think we may be able to find evidence, though not concrete, in what Z also states in the letter, about their encounter.
Z States "must print in paper", Z's statement, "Ps. 2 cops pulled a goof abot 3 min after I left the cab. I was walking down the hill to the park when this cop car pulled up & one of them called me over & asked if i saw any one acting suspicious or strange in the last 5-10 min & I said, 'Yes there was this man who was running by waveing a gun' & the cops peeled rubber & went around the corner as I directed them."
So Z says when he left the cab he walked directly N. on Cherry, turned right on Jackson, heading east, crossed Jackson so he was on N. side of Jackson, again heading east. He heads down hill on Jackson and that's when he meets up with Fouke and Zelms. Z says that was about 3 mins since he left cab. that all seems about right. which means that Fouke receives the dispatch about the time Z reaches Cherry and Jackson. P must already be at Washington/Cherry site. P rolled up to site with overhead lights on, Z had to have seen P roll up to scene.
According to Z this is when conversation takes place, Fouke/Zelm call Z over closer to their car and asks if he, Z, saw anything suspicious or strange, and Z answers that he saw a person running and waving a gun, Fouke and Zelms take off to Cherry, and turn left, cause that's the direction Z tells Fouke and Zelm that the strange guy went.
So Z within this statement reveals some interesting things.....He sets the timeline for his encounter with Fouke, Z says it's about 3 min. after he left cab, that's consistent with how long it takes to walk from Wash/Cherry to hill on Jackson St. He states he was walking down the hill, only Z, Foukes and Zelms knows of the encounter and where it took place. Whether they speak or not, who knows, we're only talking a total of about 8 secs. if they did, when Fouke leaves Z he is about 7 secs from reaching Pellessetti.

I disagree vehemently. Could have been another guy walking by with similar clothes on. Unlikely, but it's possible. The only way you would know with "absolute certainty" is if you ARE the Z.

Has it been verified that Eric Zelms' widow stated that her husband told her they did stop and speak to Z ?

If so that seals the deal for me,Fouke & zelms spoke to Zodiac.

End of the World.....

All's we know End is what we've been told and shown what is evidence in the case. that's all we have. If we each wish to make up totally unsubstantiated what if's, I guess we can. What if there was never any encounter? what if Z really never stepped foot on Jackson? Maybe what Z wrote a month later was total BS, none of that happened, and Fouke took most of Z's story since he hadn't written anything on his own, but none of it happened. See my what if's are just as good, or bad, as yours.

Monarch,

I've never contacted Mrs. Zelms myself. But I've heard it so many times on the Z sites I believe she has stated that. I'm not even sure at this point if there wasn't a documented record of Mrs. Zelms stating that Eric had told her they spoke to Z. And the only way I could see that impacting the case is from voice recognition by Foukes. So if Fouke had lied about speaking to Z, the amount of time wouldn't be an issue, the only evidence that Fouke would never be able to come forward with would be verifying Z's voice if that opportunity ever arose. I can see why Z would lie about that point, to him, and the general population,it would make SFPD look even worse, and it did.

How do we know the Z didn't just quickly duck into one of those houses? Or even hid behind a bush? I doubt the SFPD thoroughly checked out all the houses in the area. Then, perhaps he was looking out the window (or through the bush) and watching the interplay between Fouke/Zelms and the other dude who was just innocently walking down the street. The thing is LE didn't know immediately it was the Z---it looked like just another murder/robbery in the asphalt jungle.

As far as I can see, the timeline is not that exact. He might have even jumped in his car, or bicycle, around the corner and sped off.

Just saying it's POSSIBLE. We don't have the whole thing on video tape.

I would estimate there's approximately a 98.7% chance it was the Z, however.