Zodiackillersite.com

Yeah, we've been over this several times before.

But what Fouke states plainly enough is that he reasoned that Z did so-and-so: He didn't observe him venture up the stairs, then back down, then on to Maple - or whatever the chain of events were. He reasoned that this is what he must have done.

To me you're getting caught up in specific details in what is - obviously - not a 100% coherent and perfectly logical statement. It isn't even ONE statement, but several, which partly contradict each other.

To me, that's to be expected - it was a long time ago, he simply doesn't remember exactly what happened. So, it's not - and cannot be - a question of making perfect sense of every detail in his various statements. It's a question of whether he is likely to be lying about the nature of the encounter - or not. And that's where you have to look at the bigger picture, not these details which may be the result of a faulty memory as much as mendacity.

But, like I said, we've been through this before - I don't have anything particularly interesting to add to it either, so I'll just say that I respect your opinion.

Good points, I accept that. The one thing I wish eyewitnesses wouldn't do is keep adding extra details over the years, it goes to the heart of their credibility, as Mike Rodelli pointed out with William Crow. Fading memories are fine, embellishment isn't.

My POI stated to a ex wife that he was involved with a nurse in the Army, Donna Lass was a nurse at Letterman Hospital on the Presidio base. Donna left that job for some reason and moved to Lake Tahoe, Was it to get away from her mental case boyfriend? Who knows..If it was he probably caught up with her.


""Well, hell, if he "showed it to somebody else" don't you think the showee would have maybe told the cops? Wasn't there some reward money offered?"

People who are scared of others do not come forward always..

TGOZ

the ghost of zodiac wrote:My POI stated to a ex wife that he was involved with a nurse in the Army, Donna Lass was a nurse at Letterman Hospital on the Presidio base. Donna left that job for some reason and moved to Lake Tahoe, Was it to get away from her mental case boyfriend? Who knows..If it was he probably caught up with her.


""Well, hell, if he "showed it to somebody else" don't you think the showee would have maybe told the cops? Wasn't there some reward money offered?"

People who are scared of others do not come forward always..

TGOZ

Showed what to someone else?

And...the only reward money I know of relating to this case, was Donna, but that wasn't until the 90's--I believe. When Hines got involved.

UK & Norse....

An important factor to remember here is when Fouke wrote his account.....He hadn't wrote anything about his encounter until the day Z's 2nd letter appeared. I've never thought for one moment that was a coincidence, or thought Fouke just decided to write his script on that day. He was called in to write something, SFPD had to have something to counter, explain what Z had written. Explain why all the focus and resources went towards the park. Tons of pressure on SFPD as soon as Z's letter is published, and they have to have a story that will match up, not so much with what Z says, but what their actions show. Z tells everyone he has a run in with SFPD within 3 mins. after killing Stine, once Z lets that out of the bag SFPD has to cover that somehow. If Fouke's script doesn't give a reason for them to focus on the park, then SFPD and Fouke are cooked. By the Nov. letter the whole world knows it was Z who killed Stine, so it was Z who Fouke (SFPD) encounters. Fouke had absolutely no reason to assume Z was heading into the park, he just guessed that's where Z was heading, he even states it on the video "well I thought that's where he was heading".
So what if Fouke tells SFPD that he saw Z and it went as far as 3712 Jackson up on the stairs. His bosses are going to tell him that just won't do at all. It doesn't work for SFPD, and if they tell the public they were just going off of some cops assumption who saw Z last standing on the steps of 3712 Jackson, the public would have gone nuts.
So the story has to include Maple St., but even doing that, has nothing to do with the park. The problem with including Maple St. is it takes away the loping walk. the first visual Fouke would have of Z, if Z were down by the corner of maple would be of Z's upper body, like his chest to his head. And then you would be down to about a 1-2 second observation that Fouke would have of Z, before he breezed by him. Fouke see's Z,1 house above 3712 Jackson, coming down the hill, and if you go right to that location you would notice there's a deep swale in the hill right in that spot, that swale causes you to walk funny, making it look like you have an odd walk. It just does.
We have to also remember when Z writes his initial letter about the Stine Case, he never once mentions anything that he can see the cops, the dogs, he doesn't even mention the dogs, doing. Why wouldn't he rub their noses in it right away, if he were in the bushes and watching what they were doing? Cause he only mentions what he can hear, he hears motorcicles, of course cops, lots of engines, but he sees nothing at all. go back and read the letter. There was a one sentence comment, about Z being seen running into the park. No one can state where that statement came from. That would be a real important statement if someone actually saw that, they would be a prime witness, but again no one ever found who made that statement. So in the 3 weeks between the 1st Z letter and the 2nd, where would Z get all this info from of what was going on in the park that night if he wasn't actually in the park? From the media, it was nonstop, the media spoke with just about everyone they could get who was there that evening, it was printed, and it was aired on TV every day.

BayArea60's..

Norse wrote:Reading through the notes mentioned above, I came across something else which might be of interest here, in particular with regard to the timeline discussed above: Could Z have done what Fouke claims he did, i.e. head up to the entrance of 3712, wait for Fouke to drive off, head back down to Jackson, then on to the corner, then on to Maple?

Let's keep one thing in mind: Fouke doesn't actually claim that Z did this. He thought that this is what he did, it was - as he says - his reasoning that Z did this.

Ed Neil once offered a theory about what Z did that night which is very interesting in this context:

* Z is heading downhill as F/Z approach. He slows down, then pretends to enter 3712.
* As soon as it's safe to move, he heads towards Spruce - where his car is parked.
* With F/Z somewhere on W Pacific (searching for Z, thinking he has headed for the park), Zodiac drives safely away (out on Jackson, out of the area, losing himself in traffic).

I find this plausible enough. It also explains why Z turns east on Jackson (rather than heading straight north on Cherry): He has no intention of reaching the park - his intention is to reach his car. It becomes even more plausible if we go with the idea that his original intention was to kill Stine at Wash/Maple, but that he was forced to go a block further west for whatever reason.

Norse. Always enjoy reading your common sense non-fantastical take on these things. You and I think very similarly on these matters. Think he had a car parked somewhere close to where they spotted him and he made a clean get away. If there were a restaurant or bar or some public gathering place within a couple miles he probably stopped and observed some of the search from afar. If you're perched up on a hill or some other slightly elevated position you could observe from afar the basic police search.
Makes you think if only the cops would have checked all cab rides (or as many as they could) that came from that general area and went to, maybe the general area of Geary and Mason they might have knocked something loose. Could have taken a bus for sure, but checking the cabs would have been worth a try. Dagnabbit! Pretty sure they never did any such thing. That might have been a real possibility.

There were witnesses who saw a man matching the description given by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke running into Julius Khan playground shortly after the murder. The description is almost exactly the same. Unfortunately many like to drop this sighting of Zodiac because they don't like the narrative of a killer who claimed he entered the park. If you dismiss this sighting because it's not convenient, then we may as well dismiss the sighting by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke and just say Zodiac didn't exist. The sighting of the man running into the park was reported and tallies with the timeline and Bus Bomb claims. Donald Fouke stated he last saw Zodiac turning up Maple in his November 12th 1969 memorandum. In his 2007 Zodiac documentary debacle, he stated he saw a man entering the stairwell of 3712 Jackson but never saw him reach the top of the stairs. That is because he passed the subject in "5, 10, 15 seconds tops".
Zodiac wasn't in two places at the same time. Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac, but his performance in the 2007 documentary was less than convincing and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Sadly, if you want the truth about the events that night, then Zodiac's account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night, including Chief Martin Lee.

Richard Grinell wrote:Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac ... ... Zodiac's account is more reliable and makes more sense than any of the investigators that night ...

I have to disagree, Richard, that Fouke lied in his scratch (intra-departmental memo).

If you think about it, it makes no sense for him misrepresent what happened. He would need to guarantee that his partner, Zelms, would go along with the lie - a pointless and precarious conspiracy to engage in.

And, he would need to be 100% sure that not a single resident on Jackson peered through their curtains and witnessed him stopping and questioning Z. If such a witness later piped up to the press, Fouke's paper trail could see him wind up shovelling shinola at the SFPD dog pound.

I do understand that some folks here like to imagine that SFPD coerced Fouke into putting this lie down on paper. But this is the kind of hype that only sounds reasonable in recent decades, in light of the case appearing to be bigger than it was at the time (before Yellowbook and Tom's site elevated it).

You are correct that Fouke's recall in 2007 should be taken with a pinch of salt. That goes for many others who took part in those DVD special feature docs, and in the various documentaries in recent years.

Richard Grinell wrote:There were witnesses who saw a man matching the description given by the three teenagers and Donald Fouke running into Julius Khan playground shortly after the murder. The description is almost exactly the same. Unfortunately many like to drop this sighting of Zodiac because they don't like the narrative of a killer who claimed he entered the park.

I've always thought it likely he entered the park, I just doubt he stayed there. I believe if he had stayed in the park the dogs would have found him.

Someone posted here that there is an exit on one side they think Zodiac could have used to get to his car after passing through the park. It was posted by someone from that area rather recently. That seems a more likely scenario to me.

Donald Fouke definitely saw and stopped Zodiac, but his performance in the 2007 documentary was less than convincing and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I'm not sure what to make of Fouke. He comes across as someone who knows he screwed up royally that night and is trying the best CYA he can.

That might have been me who mentioned the Broadway gate as a likely escape option, (if Z did not live in the neighborhood).

That would make more sense than what SFPD apparently had him doing, which was exiting the Presidio significantly further north, by Letterman Hospital.

The Broadway gate was a half/mile from the entrance to JK, at Spruce and Pacific.

The Letterman gate was over a mile, plus you'd be a civilian walking around an army base at night to get there. Not the smart move.

Also in preparation, he could have parked outside the Broadway gate, walked 2 blocks to Jackson, and taken a simple city bus downtown to Mason Street.