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I too think he wanted more valid proof. As most know, I am not fully in favor of LB being Zodiac. We have him killing Paul so shortly after and providing undeniable proof it was him, when at that point, I don't believe the press was denying LB was him.

NOT wanting to turn this into a thread about whether LB was or wasn't Zodiac--just stating my point of view.

I think the shirt could have looked white as the white in it would have stood out. It also seems if one was wiping blood with it, that would have a different effect on the shirt: It would either be blood soaked, or smeared as if wiped.

Just one minor point, regarding his possible state of mind at the time of tearing off the shirt piece: The time frame was, as we know, narrow enough. But Z didn't know this. He didn't know about those kids (at least not until he exited the cab, at which point he had already secured the shirt piece) and he couldn't possibly know that the cops would respond so quickly (the latter was a coincidence – Pelissetti picked up the dispatch after his actual shift was done, he just happened to be in the neighborhood, one might say).

So, even though the shirt business seems almost reckless, given how pressed for time he actually was – this isn't a true factor, as it were, since he wasn't aware of being in any immediate danger. He was both unlucky and insanely lucky that night: Unlucky that the cab ended up right outside that particular house – and insanely lucky that he managed to escape a very close encounter with the cops.

Tahoe27 wrote:I too think he wanted more valid proof. As most know, I am not fully in favor of LB being Zodiac. We have him killing Paul so shortly after and providing undeniable proof it was him, when at that point, I don't believe the press was denying LB was him.

NOT wanting to turn this into a thread about whether LB was or wasn't Zodiac--just stating my point of view.

I think the shirt could have looked white as the white in it would have stood out. It also seems if one was wiping blood with it, that would have a different effect on the shirt: It would either be blood soaked, or smeared as if wiped.

all good points..I kinda feel the hood was to hide identity..i think he was from that immediate area or was there often (probably this)..now back to topic,,stine..i think Z wanted to up his game and I think he knew smaller leo departments were a joke..so he went right into SFPD jurisdiction..damn near got him caught..moving forward I think he played his game more quietly and under the radar so to speak..went out and back to mostly rural areas to increase his odds of drifting away into the dark undetected..all my take.

I am not fully in favor of LB being Zodiac. We have him killing Paul so shortly after and providing undeniable proof it was him, when at that point, I don't believe the press was denying LB was him.

He left his letter on the car door, and the handwriting is a spot on match for The Zodiac.


The fact that The Zodiac didn't take credit for it actually lends weight to the him being the culprit, not the other way around, for if he had not committed the acts at LB, and someone else had, he would have sent a letter taking claim, as he did with Bates and Johns.

It's just odd that if he didn't commit the crimes, he wouldn't have tried to prove they were his work.

I look at it this way: he left his calling card which was proof enough he was there at LB that evening, and thus felt he had nothing left to prove at that moment with respect to the crimes.

For me the most important factor is – simply – that LB fits in well enough with the rest of the series:

He wears a costume which can be tied to the later Mikado rant (the executioner angle). This costume is considerably harder to explain if the killer was a copycat (Z wasn't known to wear a costume before LB). If it was Z, the costume represents some sort of development or escalation – plus it ties in with the Mikado business. If it was a copycat, he invented something brand new which was not attributable to Z at the time.

I don't think Z would have appreciated a copycat upstaging him. He would have mentioned it in one way or another – if only to take credit for it, Johns/Bates style, as jroberson suggests.

The counter points are obvious:

He doesn't mention it. Why not? No matter how you look at it, this fact is singular.

He uses a knife, gets much more close and personal with the victims, attacks at an earlier time than he does anywhere else. All of this can be explained by escalation/development, but it's nevertheless exceptional for the series.

Bottom line: LB fits the bill. There are some problems, but these are minor compared to the problem created by removing LB from the series and inserting a copycat.

And, yes – wrong thread, of course. I'm too lazy to start anything in the CS/BH section, though. If the discussion should continue, it should do so there.

Tahoe27 wrote:Honestly, it still doesn't make sense to me. Paramedics wouldn't need to pull him out with his head and arms dangling even more-so to check to see if he was alive. And at that point, what good does it do to photograph the scene--after it's been altered. If they are going to check for vitals, they don't need to pull him out like that and if they are going to pull him out, pull him out!

When Pelissetti the first responding officer arrived at the scene, he described in 'This is the Zodiac Speaking' seeing Paul Stine slumped over the passenger seat, his head in the floor well. We don't need to take his word for it, look at the pooling of blood in the well and blood does not lie. Therefore the position you see Paul Stine in the photographs is after somebody moved him, whether it was police or medics, he didn't jump into that position by himself. He most certainly wasn't left like this by Zodiac. It is a duty of paramedics to check for vitals, either by light into the eyes or a pulse. This cannot be done adequately with him in the floor well of the passenger side. The blood in the well is the most significant pooling in the crime scene, indicating Pelissetti was correct, unless you are assuming he is making it up, therefore the photographs you see of Stine are different to Pelissetti's recollection, in which he makes no reference to Paul Stine hanging out the door.

The first job of any medical staff who arrive would be to check for signs of life, not say to photographers take your pictures first so the scene remains untouched. If they had clambered into the foot well the scene may have been compromised even more. Once the medics were sure he had expired, by your reasoning there is now no point in taking any photographs as he's been moved. The scene still has to be documented whether the body has been moved or not, you don't just say 'Oh crikey the body is not in the same position, there's no point now we'll all go home...damn medics, how dare they do their job and compromise our photographs'. Unlike the LHR murders where apparently they are drawing chalk outlines around a still alive David Faraday, unless the outline was a recreated afterthought.

You guys saying "Lb is the zodiac", I was thinking "who is LB?" It took me a minute on that one.