Stine's postition.

[Quicktrader]

Some more ideas:

- Z could have asked Stine to look to the left shortly before shooting him from the passengers side.
- The first person arriving at the scene could have tried to pull Stine's body out of the cab to check his vitals or to try to revive him
(if you have ever touched a dead person, you know that the body 'feels' completely different - no muscle tension at all, feels like an object rather than a living body, feels and is quite heavy to move such a body, adrenaline boost etc., we are sort of programmed to 'safe' any other person, immediate urge of caring for this person, such a body feels very strange as it has no pulse etc.)

Overall I meanwhile do not think that Z had been sitting on the passenger's side as there are actually no indications for this except the open (or not open) door, which could after all have been opened to cut Stine's shirt.

What bothers me most is the blood on the floor. It really appears as if a head or other body part was lying there, blood dripping around but not onto the spot where the body part might have been. But later Stine was found quite away from that blood spot. That is really weird.

QT

[Welsh Chappie]

Paramedics would never have left a victim looking like that. Dangling out of the car.

Zodiac pulled him over by the jacket cut his shirt and walked away casually.

Maybe the paramedics were just preparing to move his body in the next few minutes when someone snaps a photo. Zodiac could not have left Paul's head like that dangling out of the vehicle because he shut the cab doors as he left. How can Zodiac pull Paul across to his side, lay his head and arms dangling hanging out of the door? He would have to drag Paul across the to his side, place his head down like it is in the pic, allow his arms to hang free and then Zodiac himself shut the cabs door, at which point Paul's head being down between the seat and door will stop the door itself closing.

[Quicktrader]

It appears as if Stine had sort of 'fallen' out of the cab when someone opened the door. But then, still, his shirt is way to high..I am sure that someone had tried to pull him out of the door. Is it proven that the passenger door was closed when the first person - whoever that was - had arrived at the scene?

QT

[Welsh Chappie]

Yes that is probably what I'd go with QT.

But I was reading Carol Stine's (Paul's Sister) chat dialog earlier today that was only weeks old and in it she says a couple of times that "The witness saw Paul struggling with a man in his taxi." Before I get a barrage of people questioning this claim, I am simply the messenger and just because I am speaking of it, doesn't mean I am now touting it my own personal belief. But I just though about it as possibly being significant because of the way Don Fouke describes the gait of the White Male as "Stumbling" and possibly with "a semi limp." Again, hypothetical question I suppose but I wonder if this could have been due to something Paul had done if, and that's a big if, a struggle took place? Was there any evidence that a second shot may have been discharged and maybe hit Z in the leg? Could Stine have carried a knife in his cab for protection due to the nature of his job and buried it in Zodiac's leg? Just found it weird that she claims the witnesses say they saw a struggle and that wasn't something I had heard before.

[traveller1st]

As far as I can tell from the police reports there is no indication that the door was closed, or open for that matter.

The witnesses state that they saw Zodiac in the front passenger seat with the victim 'patrtially' slumped over his lap whilst he appeared to check his pockets. It is then stated that the witnesses observed Zodiac exit the cab by the front passenger door, wiping it with the rag as he did. Zodiac then proceeds to the drivers side and repeats before leaving the scene.

I had read somewhere, possibly in Mike R's posts regarding this crime and the withnesses, that Zodiac had, or appeared to be attempting to get Paul's body to stay in an upright positiion in the drivers seat but was having difficulty in doing this. It makes sense that this was to facilitate him exiting the cab and keep the blood from the wound away from himself as he did so. Also, if accurate, this wasn't going so well but it must have worked for long enough to get out of the cab.

I have no problem then assuming that Paul's body then fell back across the passenger seat.

The witnesses state that Zodiac appeared to be 'struggling' with Paul. Now we know Paul was dead so he might have been struggling but it was with a body and he was trying to not only get the keys and wallet but also a piece of shirt. Who knows what positions Zodiac had to push and pull and move Paul into to achieve that.

It is stated in the report that the RO, on arrival at the scene, and after dealing with the witnesses, checked the interior of the cab. Paul body position is described but there is no mention of the arms, just the position of the body and the head. There is however no mention, either at this stage or in the witnesses description, of the door either being closed by Zodiac or opened by the RO.

[Welsh Chappie]

Ok lets put aside the 'how did Paul end up in that position' argument/debate for a second, what I want to know is, whether done intentionally by Z, or gravity taking over Pauls 'Dead Weight and he slumped into the door, what difference would it, or does it make? I really don't mean that disrespectfully to the person who started the thread what-so-ever. My question is a genuine one, would there be any significance if it were able to be shown Zodiac left Paul like that vs Cab door supporting Paul's weight, Cab door opened, Paul goes with its momentum?

[Quicktrader]

Ok lets put aside the 'how did Paul end up in that position' argument/debate for a second, what I want to know is, whether done intentionally by Z, or gravity taking over Pauls 'Dead Weight and he slumped into the door, what difference would it, or does it make? I really don't mean that disrespectfully to the person who started the thread what-so-ever. My question is a genuine one, would there be any significance if it were able to be shown Zodiac left Paul like that vs Cab door supporting Paul's weight, Cab door opened, Paul goes with its momentum?

Anyone leaning against a car door would open it, if the lever is pulled to unlock imo..if that answers your question. Paul I guess had at least 140-160 lbs., imo half of it would be enough to do so.

QT

[Welsh Chappie]

Ok lets put aside the 'how did Paul end up in that position' argument/debate for a second, what I want to know is, whether done intentionally by Z, or gravity taking over Pauls 'Dead Weight and he slumped into the door, what difference would it, or does it make? I really don't mean that disrespectfully to the person who started the thread what-so-ever. My question is a genuine one, would there be any significance if it were able to be shown Zodiac left Paul like that vs Cab door supporting Paul's weight, Cab door opened, Paul goes with its momentum?

Anyone leaning against a car door would open it, if the lever is pulled to unlock imo..if that answers your question. Paul I guess had at least 140-160 lbs., imo half of it would be enough to do so.

QT

Well just had a quick nose at where your from QT as I had a question in mind to ask you. I see your Austrian. So, here is the question: What the heck are you driving in Austria? (Lol). Can't be very good designers whoever is designing these car's. Lean a bit of weight onto the door and it will instantly give way and fully open under the strain of limp bodyweight against it. Must have news reports daily I imagine.... "Todays main news headline: Someone fell out of a car again. That's all from me..."

Just joking about QT but the underlying issue is serious, do car doors seriously just open if you put a bit of eight on them over there? Can't think why else you mite say that?

[Dag MacLugh]

Was there any evidence that Z occupied the rear seat while he was Stine's passenger? From what I understand, his attempts to remove evidence were confined to the front seats and doors of the cab. If so, this indicates to me that he was a passenger in the front seat. I doubt Stine--or any other cabbie--would let a strange fare sit in the front seat; which, of course, suggests Stine knew Z, probably on a first name basis.

[Welsh Chappie]

Was there any evidence that Z occupied the rear seat while he was Stine's passenger? From what I understand, his attempts to remove evidence were confined to the front seats and doors of the cab. If so, this indicates to me that he was a passenger in the front seat. I doubt Stine--or any other cabbie--would let a strange fare sit in the front seat; which, of course, suggests Stine knew Z, probably on a first name basis.

Paul's sister was asked that twice in the cha thread I read yesterday "Would Paul allow a customer to ride up front?" I had heard her answer before yesterday also and she said yesterday again "No he absolutely would not." She was then asked "What if Paul knew the passenger?" Carol said "I don't know if he would if he knew them, Joe (Paul & Carol's other Brother who challenged Zodiac and offered himself as the next victim) used to visit Paul more than me or the other sisters so Joe would have been the better one to ask about that."

Carol repeatedly said throughout the chat that she gets the feeling, and is almost sure, that Paul knew his killer that night. She also recounts the incident with a male driver on a lonely road where a man was trying to get her to pull over pointing at her back rear tyre while shouting something. She said instantly she just knew, somehow, that it was The Zodiac. (Interestingly, Kathy Johns was tricked with this very same ruse)