Revised composite sketch

Discussion of Zodiac Victim Paul Stine

Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:19 pm

onewhoknows wrote:...What else do they have on this sighting to
show he was the Zodiac, so much not so, that they didn't bother to take this guy in for questioning? yet now they say it
was the Zodiac they saw?


Why would they take this guy in for questioning if he wasn't the black man reported as the perp?

Fouke & Zelms spotted a man walking the opposite direction, just around the corner of the crime scene who fit the general description that the teens gave. Zodiac wrote about "2 cops". I think it's safe to say it was the same person.

I think weight and age guesstimates should be taken lightly....especially by teenagers. Even adults can't get it straight most of the time. Nothing was written in stone.

***

In regards to the revised composite...I have to wonder if Zelms may have contributed and Fouke didn't know about it.
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby onewhoknows » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:49 pm

Adults tend to have more "filters" and "walls" then teenagers.
Zodiac also said he was hiding in the Presidio Park, but this guy is walking away from the Park.
So which part of his letter do you believe or discount? I'm confused...
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:53 pm

onewhoknows wrote:Adults tend to have more "filters" and "walls" then teenagers.
Zodiac also said he was hiding in the Presidio Park, but this guy is walking away from the Park.
So which part of his letter do you believe or discount? I'm confused...


If you go by Foukes scratch/memo at the time, the man was seen walking straight towards the park.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby morf13 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:36 pm

onewhoknows wrote: There is absolutely no way to say the man that Foukes claims he saw,
was a suspect because he was walking along a sidewalk in San Francisco. What else do they have on this sighting to
show he was the Zodiac, so much not so
, that they didn't bother to take this guy in for questioning? yet now they say it
was the Zodiac they saw? Did anyone ever go to the house they claim this guy walked up to and question anyone?
Zodiac was effectively jerking SFPD's chain, as he continues to do today. Perfect, he threw them
off the trail. They went back and revised the composite to look less like the real Zodiac. Brilliant.
I understand that ears can be as defining as fingerprints. The composite of Zodiac shows very distinctive ears.
The original sketch looked so much like Zodiac that he then went undercover with his murders.
Please try not to be like cattle and follow everyone off the track of finding the Zodiac Killer.


The guy looked exactly like the kids described, and he was walking in the right spot at the right time to have been Zodiac, so it's very likely, it was Zodiac. They didnt stop to talk to him, because the incorrect details and description had been passed out,and they were looking for a black male. As far as the house that Fouke claims he saw Z walk up to, I personally dont believe him, or that it happened. He suddenly added that 40 years after the fact and never put it in his memo.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby onewhoknows » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:12 pm

Yes, Foukes police report confession just states he saw Zodiac walk east on Jackson and North on Maple which is a court near the Presidio.
What did the kids say Zodiac was wearing, did they describe the windbreaker in blue and rust colored pants. The kids did not describe an
older man with blond or greying hair. What a mess.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:20 pm

You know, considering the date of the scratch/memo and who it is addressed to, I tend to lean towards Fouke not contributing to the revised sketch.

Surely Armstrong & Toschi were involved and around at the time the composite was drawn up shortly after Paul's murder. So, why would Fouke describe this man in an inter-office memo to Armstrong and Toschi in mid-November?

He is letting them know it was HIM who saw the man walk into the park via Maple and HIM letting officers know to look there once the corrected call of a WMA came in.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:37 pm

onewhoknows wrote:Yes, Foukes police report confession just states he saw Zodiac walk east on Jackson and North on Maple which is a court near the Presidio.
What did the kids say Zodiac was wearing, did they describe the windbreaker in blue and rust colored pants. The kids did not describe an
older man with blond or greying hair. What a mess.


Actually, this is what was written in the police report the night of Stine's murder. I take it THIS is the description given by the teens. If so, it would seem the info on the initial composite WAS incorrect and changed to reflect what was originally in the pd report.

(Fouke also admits the hair MAY have appeared to look as if it were graying due to the lighting. Other than that...damn close, imo. Fouke clearly states the man was seen going INTO the Presidio and the direction of the Julius Kahn playground.)

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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby entropy » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:58 am

Tahoe27 wrote:You know, considering the date of the scratch/memo and who it is addressed to, I tend to lean towards Fouke not contributing to the revised sketch.

Surely Armstrong & Toschi were involved and around at the time the composite was drawn up shortly after Paul's murder. So, why would Fouke describe this man in an inter-office memo to Armstrong and Toschi in mid-November?

He is letting them know it was HIM who saw the man walk into the park via Maple and HIM letting officers know to look there once the corrected call of a WMA came in.


The dilemma in believing this for me is the alteration of Z's age estimate. One week after the event and weeks BEFORE Fouke's memo, the age estimate was changed by 10-15 years to precisely match Fouke's later estimate. This would have occurred just days after Zodiac claimed responsibility and indicated that he had been escaping on foot in the general direction of where Fouke encountered someone. Before this time, it's very possible that Fouke did not consider his encounter significant. Fouke's memo is then not written until 11/12/69, immediately after Zodiac writes again and specifically alludes to having an encounter with Fouke by saying "two cops pulled a goof...".

Given the timeline, I think it's very likely that Fouke had discussed his encounter and observations after Zodiac's initial letter and that his information was included in the revised composite sketch (or perhaps was the main reason for issuing a revised sketch and description?). It's conceivable that his information was used without his knowledge but it strains credulity to believe that the teens just unanimously decided days after their initial encounter that the guy they saw was really 10-15 years older than they first thought.

10/11/69- Paul Stine is killed and Fouke has an encounter with a white male a few blocks away.
10/13/69- The initial sketch of the perpetarator (based on eyewitness info. from the teens) is created and released.
10/13/69- Zodiac mails a letter indicating that he had escaped on foot and had been hiding "in the park" watching some of the activities after the murder (whether that's true or not...)
10/17/69- A revised sketch is created (issued 10/18) with an almost identical physical description other than increasing the suspect's age by 10-15 years to 35-45.
11/9/69- Zodiac writes again and describing his escape and encounter with two cops who "pulled a goof" by not stopping him. He wants the portion about his masterful dupe of the two cops printed in the SF Chronicle (who had received the letter) for all to see.
11/12/69- Fouke submits his memo with a very detailed description of his encounter (far more detailed than what was offered by the teens or than was included in the wanted posters).

The timeline leads me to believe that Fouke likely became aware of the possible significance of his encounter after the initial Zodiac letter and offered someone his observations. Once Zodiac wrote again, apparently confirming that encounter and looking to use it in order to publicly embarrass Fouke and Zelms for not capturing him, an official memo was created. Whether or not Zodiac's account of the contact was accurate, Fouke would have had no choice but to give an official report of the encounter.
Last edited by entropy on Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby Tahoe27 » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:07 am

^^I understand what you are saying entropy. The timing of Fouke's memo has always sparked an interest. I too believe it was Zodiac's letter that triggered it. I just question why it was have been addressed to Armstrong and Toschi like it was new info for them. Maybe it was...

It would just seem the teens are the ones who initially said Zodiac was in his early 40's. So wondering where the 25-30 comment on the original came from.
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Re: Revised composite sketch

Postby entropy » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:21 am

In thinking about OWK's question about the likelihood that Fouke and Zelms actually encountered Zodiac, this question came to mind:

Was this encounter made public at all prior to Fouke's written memo?

I looked back through a few of the newspaper articles a month or so after the Stine murder and didn't see any indication that it was. In fact, the 10/18/69 Chronicle article that calls Z a "clumsy criminal" refers to him as "allowing himself to be seen by three witnesses as he fled from the Presidio Heights murder scene". No mention of any encounter with police...

http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/art ... 615336.php

The article also calls out Zodiac for lying about remaining near the scene after the murder, stating "Lee (Chief of Inspectors, Marvin Lee) said the fact that Zodiac failed to mention the dogs and floodlights proves "he wasn't anywhere in the vicinity." Zodiac then responds to this article almost point for point in his Bus Bomb letter on 11/9/69 and claims to have had a brief conversation with "two cops" a short distance from the scene. Could Z have known this occurred without being there? His actual account of the encounter may or may not be true but, if the encounter wasn't made public, it would confirm that he was the person seen by Fouke, no?
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