The Car Door

Discussion of Zodiac Victims Shepard & Hartnell

Re: The Car Door

Postby Tahoe27 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:04 pm

I tend to think (if this was not Zodiac) it DID bother him and this is why he went after Paul so quickly in the easiest manner possible (a cabbie?) and with such a need to prove it was him who did it.

Ultimately, all I hope for is someday to be proven wrong....or right. :)
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The Car Door

Postby Susie » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:08 pm

Personally I think LB was Z and that he was just getting cocky and confident and that is why he was getting bolder with each attack. LB was still pretty secluded (plus based on eye witnesses it appears he scoped out the place for the person couple to “do his thing” to) and I don’t think he worried about talking too much because in his mind they were both going to die anyway. I think he was enjoying it and did the costume to make him feel more powerful and induce as much fear as possible. In my opinion his cockiness was evident in the Spine murder as well and after almost getting caught it brought him back to reality real fast. I think he was feeling invincible and that is why he put on this show. I also believe (as speculated) that he did enjoy theater and maybe even was jealous that he was not able to perform the way the actors were, so therefore his crimes became his performance.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby smithy » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 pm

Tahoe27 wrote:Ted Bundy was a nut and he functioned quite well in society. One can be quite brilliant and still be one can short of a six-pack. (or maybe two or three)

For all rules, an exception, naturally. Ya think he was on a par with Bundy then, not just a nut-job? When you said "Maybe he was just a nut" I thought you meant, uh...... :shock: :lol:
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Re: The Car Door

Postby smithy » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:36 pm

Norse, I like your "letter writer" (oops!) "Zodiac was inspired by the guy at the lake" angle quite a lot.
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Norse wrote:It's an executioner's outfit. It ties in nicely with the Mikado.

Well..... Berryessa was September 27th 1969 - The Little List letter arrived 26th July 1970. Mikado - KoKo, the executioner.
Did one lead to the other? Perhaps it did yes. Maybe. But it took a damn long time!
Were they both inspired in the mind of the same nut? Well... IDK.
If he'd written about Ned Kelly in October '69, would we be talking about Ned Kelly right now instead of Groucho's Mikado? Yes, we would. Here's a rubbish picture. Looks like Ted K.
http://x-bonez-x.deviantart.com/art/Ned-kelly-185861343

I like the fact that KoKo never actually killed anyone quite a lot too, of course. The whole things a comic opera? Yes, could be.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby Norse » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:52 pm

He does look a bit like Ted K...

And Clint looks a bit like the Stine sketch. Not to mention Bruce Willis! Slap a pair of glasses on him - and there's your man from Presidio Heights, stockiness included.

Not to mention that Paul McCartney resembles the Berryessa sketch...

But KoKo - yes. It's hard to tell what Z saw in him exactly. But there IS a link - and I've seen more tenuous ones - between the Berryessa outfit and the Mikado. Even if one doesn't buy that, I still maintain that the costume is such that, given the circumstances, it serves mainly as a...costume for the killer. He's acting something out, in full regalia, it's for HIS benefit more than anything. And that isn't easily reconcilable with a copycat (of any kind).

It's completely out of proportion as a pure disguise (the pin-it-on-Z angle) and it simply wasn't associated with Z at the time (the pathological, nutty copycat angle). If it was a copycat he must have been very similar to Z, shared his flair for histrionics and possibly even his penchant for light opera!*

* Devil's advocate there, I must admit. I don't believe Z necessarily had a penchant for light opera. But he undoubtedly liked to quote from the Mikado for some reason.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby xEnigm4x » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:09 am

Susie wrote:Personally I think LB was Z and that he was just getting cocky and confident and that is why he was getting bolder with each attack. LB was still pretty secluded (plus based on eye witnesses it appears he scoped out the place for the person couple to “do his thing” to) and I don’t think he worried about talking too much because in his mind they were both going to die anyway. I think he was enjoying it and did the costume to make him feel more powerful and induce as much fear as possible. In my opinion his cockiness was evident in the Spine murder as well and after almost getting caught it brought him back to reality real fast. I think he was feeling invincible and that is why he put on this show. I also believe (as speculated) that he did enjoy theater and maybe even was jealous that he was not able to perform the way the actors were, so therefore his crimes became his performance.


My theory on the costume wasn't so much to induce fear, but to keep him from view. We have to remember, sun was going down, but it was still light out when the attacks occurred. He had to think that there was a chance that a passing motorboat/fisherman could have spotted him committing his murder....therefore, that's why he wore the costume.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby Susie » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:42 am

xEnigm4x wrote:
My theory on the costume wasn't so much to induce fear, but to keep him from view. We have to remember, sun was going down, but it was still light out when the attacks occurred. He had to think that there was a chance that a passing motorboat/fisherman could have spotted him committing his murder....therefore, that's why he wore the costume.

I agree that he choose to wear a costume so others could not ID him if he was seen, but a ski mask could make worked for that and been a hell of a lot easier; however I believe he wore that type of costume rather than a simple mask to induce fear. As well as make himself feel powerful.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby UKSpycatcher » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:25 am

The car door pictures in the papers in the aftermath of the Berryessa crime were not shown and in evidence paper concealed the wording by knife. Of course this may have been withheld, so when the real Zodiac contacted he might verify the words written. Upset by them not revealing his entire message in the paper, he wrote 'You better print' and 'The bleeding Knife of Zodiac' in the Fairfield Letter 3 months later. After all the Berryessa attack was his only known knife murder to date.
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Re: The Car Door

Postby smithy » Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:42 am

Eh?
How many newspapers wrote about Cecelia and Bryan being stabbed? All of them. I don't think the fact that some adolescent writer figured out that someone used a knife to do the stabbing is all that compelling....
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Re: The Car Door

Postby traveller1st » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:35 pm

smithy wrote:Eh?
How many newspapers wrote about Cecelia and Bryan being stabbed? All of them. I don't think the fact that some adolescent writer figured out that someone used a knife to do the stabbing is all that compelling....


A simple yet easily overlooked fact. That certainly would cover the 'kooks'. Where does that then leave the Halloween card on the scale I wonder. Where the actual phrasing was accurate as well ... slightly elevated?
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