Zodiac's hood & Symbol.

[Victor]

To be fair, I've never heard of any serial killer who went back to finish the job after a victim survived.

Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer - victim: Konerak Sinthasomphone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahmer

[Welsh Chappie]

If Zodiac had introduced himself to Bryan and Cecelia as Zodiac, they probably would not have been so compliant with his demands to tie each other up. By using the robbery ruse, he was able to make them do what he wanted. Recall how Bryan states that at no point (until Zodiac drew his knife, of course) did he feel that they were in any kind of mortal danger. He actually thought all that was going to happen was them being robbed of their money and vehicle.

Very True Nacht. Bryan even said he thought that this experience could be quite valuable, and that he could 'Squeeze a paper out of it in school'. The lad was far more relaxed and compliant that I would have been. But as you mentioned, he didn't feel the motive was anything other than robbery.

[Victor]

If Zodiac had introduced himself to Bryan and Cecelia as Zodiac, they probably would not have been so compliant with his demands to tie each other up. By using the robbery ruse, he was able to make them do what he wanted. Recall how Bryan states that at no point (until Zodiac drew his knife, of course) did he feel that they were in any kind of mortal danger. He actually thought all that was going to happen was them being robbed of their money and vehicle.

To be fair, I've never heard of any robber who wore a black hood with Celtic cross and accoutrements.

[Nachtsider]

Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer - victim: Konerak Sinthasomphone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahmer

Ah, but this was still minutes after he had cornered and started working his victim. I'm talking about a serial killer who returned to track down a victim days or weeks after the event.

[traveller1st]

With regards leaving anyone alive or not, the approach would suggest that witnesses were not his intention. WC is on the right track with how Bryan very nearly didn't make but it wasn't just his determination that saved him, it was Cecelia. She untied him don't forget. Or at least managed to loosen his bonds enough for him to get free and then untie her. So if anything, the reason that Bryan survived is down to Zodiac NOT finishing either of them off. He didn't kill anyone that day, Bryan survived because he left them BOTH alive. Cecelia didn't succumb to her wounds until 2 days later.

Point is, that he hogtied them and stabbed them and left them both to bleed to death. Yes he may have gone a little more 'hog wild' with cecelia but even that wasn't enough to finish her off. If he had finished Cecelia off then and there there's a far greater chance they would both be dead. I don't think he DID think that Bryan was dead, I think he may have assumed he was unconscious but that didn't matter, they were both tied up and both losing blood and going to die, unconscious is just as good because you aren't making any noise but you're still dying.

There was no master skill here to determine if one of them survives or not. The logical reason for him being more aggressive with Cecelia was that he had to be. Bryan had just started to get the idea to pretend to be dead and Zodiac must have thought right then, ok he's stopping moving and he's had enough wounds to die from, it's more important now to stop the girl making so much noise and to do it quickly. He was trying to shut her up by stabbing her and I guess when you can't multi-task you try to achieve two things by doing the one thing you are doing, faster and harder until both things have been achieved. In this case stabbing and silence.

He had though some aspects of this thought through but only in so much as it was a mental template for this approach. Knife and hogtying. Neutralize the male first by getting the girl to tie him up, then tie her and check both. Then he makes a mistake. If it is true that Bryan asked to be stabbed first and Zodiac obliges then this is where it went wrong and despite Bryan's reported reasoning being 'he couldn't bear to see Cecelia being stabbed' I think this turned out to be a very smart thing to do. He was going to do Cecelia first but he let his guard down and must have thought "why not, they're both tied up" but I think he planned to Kill the girl first because he assumed she would make the most noise but I also think that he had only just came to that realisation and that's why he allowed himself to be distracted because Bryan was giving him an option that made up his mind for him and he knew he had to get a move on.

I think he regretted that almost immediately once Cecelia started screaming but he waited until he felt Bryan was at least unconscious then, as we all know, Cecelia was not making an easy target for him and she wasn't quiet so he had to be less methodical and more aggressive.

If only he'd brought duct tape.

I wonder now if the "...no, a double murder" comment meant that he DID think BRYAN was dead because he's left the girl still moving a bit or because he knew that BRYAN WASN'T dead but that the girl would be. I lean towards the former being that he thought Bryan was dead because he need's some frame of reference for that doubt and Bryan not moving (dead) girl in process of dying but still moving a bit (might be dead). We know Bryan wasn't moving so to consider what the doubt might have been it's logical that if Bryan wasn't moving then Cecelia must have been, well lets say, not unconscious.

The thing about that statement is that's it's a doubt that he has right then and there, just after what has happened and how he left it so he's had time from the attack to getting to the phone booth for this to fester in his head and you have to try and imagine what he thinks he's done wrong. Whatever it is, it's a big enough doubt to make him verbally admit that he's not sure they will both die. So what did he do wrong, was it the number of times he stabbed them?, was it that he didn't deliver a fatal blow? Did he think that the boy wasn't dead but he couldn't wait because he had to silence the girl and that took longer than he'd hoped?

[Victor]

I wonder now if the "...no, a double murder" comment meant that he DID think BRYAN was dead because he's left the girl still moving a bit or because he knew that BRYAN WASN'T dead but that the girl would be. I lean towards the former being that he thought Bryan was dead because he need's some frame of reference for that doubt and Bryan not moving (dead) girl in process of dying but still moving a bit (might be dead). We know Bryan wasn't moving so to consider what the doubt might have been it's logical that if Bryan wasn't moving then Cecelia must have been, well lets say, not unconscious.

The thing about that statement is that's it's a doubt that he has right then and there, just after what has happened and how he left it so he's had time from the attack to getting to the phone booth for this to fester in his head and you have to try and imagine what he thinks he's done wrong. Whatever it is, it's a big enough doubt to make him verbally admit that he's not sure they will both die. So what did he do wrong, was it the number of times he stabbed them?, was it that he didn't deliver a fatal blow? Did he think that the boy wasn't dead but he couldn't wait because he had to silence the girl and that took longer than he'd hoped?

Good point and I, could be wrong, would opine that The Z. probably didn't want to make his leaving a living witness, and LB a marketing campaign, too obvious but slipped up with "I want to report a murder...no, a double murder".

[smithy]

Trav, I believe we have Ranger White to thank for that "Stab me first" business - that's not something Bryan said. And no wonder.

FWIW it was published in the VNC of July 7th that the caller after BRS said "I want to report a double murder", and that's why I think that dialogue was used ("again") - with that little correction - at Berryessa. It's in the police report too, of course. http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR4.html

[Tahoe27]

He could have sliced their throats too to quiet them, but didn't. Quick, no sound...instead he chose to stab. Then a couple of weeks later, goes back to the most cowardly, easy way to kill someone...a cabbie. Maybe he decided he didn't like knives.

[Theforeigner]

IMO one significant reason why Cecilia Shepard did not survive the Zodiac attack was because the ambulance was WAY!!! to late on the scene!!!
WHY did it take authorities THAT long to get the victims to the hospital???


6:30 PM ca. - Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard are stabbed by Zodiac

6:40 PM - The very first report of the stabbing was made by Ronald Fong (the fisher/boat man) to Mrs Elizabeth White at the Racho Monticello Resort.

6:45 PM aprox - Mrs Elizabeth White stated that she, right away (aprox 6:45), called Park Headquarters to report the stabbing.

7:10 PM Ranger Willam White arrived at the crime scene and calles Park Headquarters to report the stabbing, tell them call Sherrif's office and ask them to call ambulance and a deputy. Ranger White said that as they arrived at the crime scene, park ranger Dennis Land showed up with BH in his truck.

7:13 PM Park Headquarters called Napa PD to report the stabbing and ask for an ambulance!!! and a deputy.

8:50 PM Not untill 8:50 PM, YES 8:50 PM did the two victims arrive at the hospital in NAPA!!!



SO...!!!... it took 2 HOURS AND 5 MINUTES from the stabbing was repported to authorities until the victims arrived at the hospital !!!

6:45 PM aprox - Mrs Elizabeth White called Park Headquarters and repported the stabbing!!!

8:50 PM Did Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard arrive at the hospital in NAPA!!!

[Welsh Chappie]

I agree that there isn't just one or two reasons why Bryan survived the attack. Traveller correctly points out one of the reasons, that being Cecelia untying Bryan. There's also Bryan's determination to get help despite collapsing several times in trying to do so, and various other reasons why Bryan was able to survive. And there is no argument from me that Zodiac did contribute to Bryan surviving in one sense because, as Tahoe points out, he simply could have slit their throats if he wished. And having a loaded gun on him, he could have shot them both in the head, as he would do one month later when executing Paul Stine. My problem with what Victor said is that he asserts that Zodiac deliberately and intentionally let Bryan live because that was his plan all along. There's no question that it was down, in part, to Zodiac that Bryan survived, but that is because of Zodiac's own ineptness. It wasn't down to a deliberate, conscious decision on Zodiac's part to let Bryan live. Bryan survived being stabbed six times, many others have succumbed to being stabbed once. Brayn was rather lucky in the sense that none of his stab wounds penetrated vital organs such as his heart. It simply isn't logical, or plausible, to suggest that Zodiac's plan was to stab someone six times with a 12 inch blade with no intention for the person to die.