Lake Berryessa Letter???

[Pettibon Junction]

Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.

It's almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

Or he just killed two people in broad daylight and was truncating his scorecard rather than blowing his escape by spending any more time than he needed to in vandalizing a car door (which is also a crime, something that anyone happening along by could easily see him committing).

[CuriousCat]

Following the True Moon Calendar/Deli days theory, I still believe the Zodiac was in a kind of rush when he killed Paul Stine. Maybe he knew he couldn't commit another murder on a Deli day

Someone is going to have to show that Dali day calander was around in Zodiac's time before I put any stock into it because I can't find any reference to it that isn't recent.

obviously he felt the need to rip pieces of poor Stine's shirt because that murder didn't really have his mark on it and he knew journalists and the police alike thought he claimed murders that weren't actually his own. OR, or, he just stuck to what he said in one of his letters (if I'm not mistaken) about changing his modus operandi to baffle the police, who knows, but I'd go with the former hypothesis.

I think Stine was his way of punching the police right in the nose. Seems much of what Zodiac was about was embarrassing the police. To walk into their turf in the middle of a large city to "do his thing" must have given him immense satisfaction. It was brazen as hell and might be, in his mind, his crowing achievement. Might be why he stopped killing or at least stopped talking about his other killings. He had proved his point.

Also, the frequency of his crimes increased, especially if one considers the '63 Domingos and the '66 Bates attacks to be Zodiac's, along with the abduction of Kathleen Johns. More than 3 years between his first 2 murders, then 2 years until LHR, then barely 8 months until BRS and that's when he starts striking more and more often with 5 attacks in just 14 months. What could be the reason to that?

Could be a lot of reasons but he could have committed other murders we don't know about. There's an attack in San Diego about a year after the Domingos/Edwards murders that seems it could be his work, quite a few others also. When he spoke about the CJB murder he did say "there are a hell of a lot more down there". That might be BS, might be the truth. It's reasonably certain he claimed murders/crimes he didn't commit.

Getting back to the original subject, it remains true that he never mentioned LB in his letters and postcards.

True, but he did leave his calling card with the door and phone call.

I don't think this was because Hartnell survived and the Zodiac just decided to act as if this attack never existed as a result,

I still think Hartnell intimidated him and threw him for a loop. He expected him to be scared stiff but he wasn't. He might have wanted to just move on from that one.

because I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").

Seems that way. He always attacked the men first then went for the women. I think he knew the men could be a threat, especially if he did commit the Domingos/Edwards murders as it's believe Domingos fought him. I'm not sure women were the main target however, it might just be that after he rendered the men unable to fight he simply had more time to deal with the women.

But then, the CJB confession letter says "I'm stalking your girls", so there seems to be something to it being about women. He probably had a hard time finding women out alone without a man around.

Which raises another question: why did he never make sure his victims were actually dead? He did shot Stine and Faraday in the head so they didn't stand a chance, he could have done the same with his other victims. What kind of so-called killer bragging about being such so much is going to show such lack of "professionalism"?

I don't think killing was his ultimate goal, just part of it. I think it was more important to him to ridicule the police.

And he also shot Mageau in the head, probably assumed he would die. Mageau was damn lucky to live, Zodiac intended for that head shot to be a kill shot.

[Tahoe27]

...I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").

I never quite understand this line of thinking.

Mike Mageau and Hartnell were stabbed numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.

If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario--not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.

[Pettibon Junction]

I never quite understand this line of thinking.

He shot the hell out of Mike Mageau and stabbed Hartnell numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.

If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario--not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.

I agree. His issues were with humanity.

[Claypooles]

@CuriousCat:
-Can't seem to find anything about the date of creation for this calendar, but I still wonder what are the chances all "official" Z attacks come out as a Deli. Well...
-Yeah, he definitely had beef with the cops and to me he definitely had a criminal record. But actually the great majority of suspects did. And so finally he didn't like cops AND women, must have been an adorable guy...
-We know he was a liar and he liked to brag a lot about himself, so I wouldn't be surprised if he claimed other guys' "works" as his own. What bugs me though is the Donna Lass case. Why did he hide the body? As a way to form a riddle game with the police?
-All in all, I take it he was a rather clumsy killer, way less self-assured during his attacks than in his letter (as you more or less noted), would seize opportunities on the fly most of the time. Not sure he was such an organized killer.

[CuriousCat]

...I am convinced that his main targets all along where women (I am also convinced that his misspelling of "woman" as "woeman" was a pun").

I never quite understand this line of thinking.

He shot the hell out of Mike Mageau and stabbed Hartnell numerous times. There was every intent of killing them since both times a "double murder" was reported. Both of those guys were extremely lucky. And you have Stine. Cheri Jo, Kathleen Johns, and Donna Lass, remain in question.

If his issues were with women, I would expect an entirely different scenario--not only with his killings, but in his letter writing as well.

Well, like I said, if he did kill CJB, and I believe he did, he made sure to point out a problem with women in the confession letter. I think his main goal was to scare the population, men and women, and probably thought it was easier to throw a scare into women with that letter.

And as I said, I sometimes think killing was secondary at least in these known crimes. Stine shows he didn't really care who he killed, man or woman. In the other attacks he went after the men first, if some of the women had been quick on their feet, they might have got away, especially Betty Jansen. She did the smart thing, try to run away, that's all you can do in her situation. She gave herself a chance though it didn't work out.

As some people have already pointed out long ago, if that was his motivation, jealousy of other's love life, he would have hated the men just as much as the women. It could just as easily stem from a hatred of men, and police, who he felt didn't protect someone important to him, like his mother.

[CuriousCat]

@CuriousCat:
-Can't seem to find anything about the date of creation for this calendar, but I still wonder what are the chances all "official" Z attacks come out as a Deli. Well...

I don't think all of them did? I thought one was not on a Dali day?

-Yeah, he definitely had beef with the cops and to me he definitely had a criminal record.

Not so sure about that. I think it's possible he wanted to be a policeman but was rejected, or possibly had been one and was fired. This was his way of showing them he was better than they were.

-All in all, I take it he was a rather clumsy killer, way less self-assured during his attacks than in his letter (as you more or less noted), would seize opportunities on the fly most of the time. Not sure he was such an organized killer.

I don't think he was clumsy or unorganized, just the opposite. I think he planned them well, scouted the areas and knew what time was best to strike. If he had been bad at it, he would have been caught.

[Druzer]

If the Zodiac was just trying to kill people than he was prone to failure, but I agree that he scouted his attack sites and the crimes at Lake Berryessa and Pacific Heights had to involve a lot of planning even if things didn't work out as he projected.

The Dali day connection is really neat but the referenced 13 moon calendar with the Dali symbol was created in 1992.

Was Zodiac a liar? I'm not sure there is actually a confirmed example of this. Though I believe he was creating a character intended to scare and amuse readers and keep investigators guessing I think he was pretty truthful in the letters concerning his crimes. I don't think he was witnessed making the Vallejo phone call and his car probably wasn't brown, and he probably didn't build a roadside bomb or put his name in a cipher, but I don't think we know enough to conclude that he lied about Bates, Johns, or even Radetich... though he probably did. Alright, reading my own paragraph here I guess he did lie quite a bit!

Whether Zodiac had prior convictions is an interesting question. On one hand it seems likely that he killed or caused mischief before, on the other if he had priors locally then he must have had a lot of confidence in his airplane cement. Bizarre as it seems there are suggestions that he was gloveless at BRS (described by MM as having short-sleeves), LB (BH noted his shaking hands), and in San Francisco (print in blood).

What is the best evidence that the Pines letter is referring to Donna Lass? Are there implications beyond 1) the six month anniversary it was sent on combined with 2) an interpretation that Sierra Club is code for the Sahara Hotel in South Lake Tahoe where she likely disappeared? I know that she lived in San Francisco and worked at the Letterman Hospital which is pretty hard to dismiss as a coincidence. Is there anything more definitive that it was Donna Lass referenced?

I don't think we can determine that Zodiac was wholly intent on killing his victims. He may have tried to but he didn't ensure that they expired before leaving the scene at least in the first 3 canonical attacks. David F and Paul S are the only victims who received head shots and David still had vitals when police arrived. Zodiac reported the crimes as murders and kept a kill count that did not include wounded victims, but if he was truly concerned about their survival he surely could have completed the job without interference, especially at Lake Berryessa.

I think inflicting suffering through violence to achieve wide-spread terror was his primary motivation. My interpretation may be misguided but it seems an important distinction because if he didn't care whether the victims lived to speak with the police then in my view he must have been from out of town. Grinell and Morford have put forth very compelling theories about the Zodiac living within walking distance of the Vallejo payphone (so I'm probably wrong!), but I think doing a geographical profile of a murderer who writes to the media on the same terms as an unpublished killer is problematic and that it's equally possible he resided outside the perimeter defined by his crimes. Thanks for reading!

[Marshall]

I get your point, the door was precise and the letters to the press were general in describing the dates. ...what is the significance here?

It shows a difference in the mindset of the writers. One is specific, detailed. The other is sloppy, indifferent. In my humble opinion... different people.

There are a lot of discussions scattered throughout this website, discussing the many differences between LB and the other confirmed Zodiac attacks. No need to summarize here - the list is long. I just wanted to add this to it, that's all.

[Marshall]

Bottom line, shooter/writer Z did not particularly care and was very general, while costumed car door writer Z was very specific.

It's almost like a student of a master, who studies, and thus knows the dates and places the great works were painted, even better than the master himself.

Or he just killed two people in broad daylight and was truncating his scorecard rather than blowing his escape by spending any more time than he needed to in vandalizing a car door (which is also a crime, something that anyone happening along by could easily see him committing).

Well, two things here. First, I don't think adding the time to the LB date is considered "truncating." I would call that "expanding." Really all the guy needed to do to claim LB as a Z crime would've been to draw the symbol.

Second, if he was trying to hurry, as you suggest, that would be yet one more difference between this guy and the fellow who shot Darlene and Mike, who took his time going back to his car to reload, then walked back to fire more shots, and the guy who shot Paul, who took time to wipe down the cab, tried to prop Paul into a sitting position, then walked away.