Zodiackillersite.com

TheMist wrote:

Claypooles wrote:Had Cecilia Shepard known the assailant, she would have recognized his voice, maybe? The man talked quite a lot to her and BH, from what I can understand.

Maybe she would have known him by sight only, and maybe he knew that.

Very good point...we know that Darlene Ferrin had closed her windows at night, correct? Some peeping Tom issues? If Z had gone for the windows (Darlene Ferrin, possibly Betty Lou Jensen and Cecilia Shepard, too), then Cecilia would have known his face but not his voice. At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

If Z was 'stalking' his girls, he might have lived in the area, too. Same could have happened with CJB.

QT

Tahoe27 wrote:

Richard Grinell wrote:It is fairly evident by now that the "by knife" writing on the car door was not released prior to October 27th 1970. Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card, the only logical derivative, is that the Halloween card was created by the killer of Cecelia Shepard. That means the same copycat is responsible for both, or the Zodiac Killer is responsible for both. This would suggest that one person is inextricably linked to both.

It too, could just be a coincidence as it was known they were attacked "by knife", but that is a stretch...a possibility, but a stretch.

I have to wonder if any other communiques (future or otherwise) used the term "by rope", "by gun", or "by fire" in relation to any murders. Why stop with "by knife"?

I have already looked extensively and found nothing. Your finding of the Tim Holt comic and the wording By Fire, By Gun, By Rope and By Knife was excellent. We assume the creator of the Halloween card just stumbled across the comic prior to the mailing of the Halloween card. But what if he had found the comic prior to Lake Berryessa- it could have been the inspiration for the writing "by knife" on the car door, rather than the other way round.

Quicktrader wrote:@CuriousCat
Imo it's not correct that CS had seen the assailant before he had put his hood on. 'Oh it's some man..he stepped behind the tree' not necessarily means that Z hadn't already put his hood on. Bryan Hartnell also stated the masked person to be a man (most likely due to his stature, later also due to his clipping glasses etc.). As far as I can see, CS had never seen her assailant's face or - what you mentioned - had a 'good look' at him or 'pretty close, too'.

Well, my post is written more factually or with certainty than I intended, it was my opinion.

However, in the "This is the Zodiac Speaking" documentary the detective who interviewed her at the scene said she told him she had a clear look at his face. He was asked why he didn't put that in his report and he said he didn't think it was important at the time. He also said he took notes on all she told him so it's probably in there. It might not be in the report because they decided to hold it back from the public and became a moot point when Cecelia was not able to offer more after that. I'm not sure if she was ever capable of speaking to the officers again after the initial interview at the scene.

She also first saw the guy about 200 to 300 yards away and watched him the whole time he walked down. The tree he walked behind wasn't far from where Cecilia was. I'm pretty sure she saw enough she would have mentioned to Bryan he looks like someone she knows.

I do think it's possible Zodiac knew her, but not that she knew him.

Or did I miss something here? Be careful..if you know things that haven't been published, you might have been at the crime scene...

QT

I was 7 years old when it happened so they can come question me any time they want.

Quicktrader wrote: At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

She saw him long before that.

CuriousCat..you wrote:

'She saw him long before that.'
'She also first saw the guy about 200 to 300 yards away and watched him the whole time he walked down. The tree he walked behind wasn't far from where Cecilia was.'

Do you have any reliable source for that? My information is completely different (police report):

According to White, the male victim said that a male subject approached them, wearing a hood, dressed in dark clothing.

and, more importantly:

'The female victim advised White that she could not see the responsible's face as a hood was covering all of his head.'
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport7.html

in detail she said:

Mrs. White stated that the girl advised him [Ronald Fong or Mr. White, unclear] "He was a man with a hood...His face was covered...He was wearing black pants...It hurts, it hurts"

Those were moreless the last words of Cecilia Shepard.

The only thing I remember regarding 'walking down' etc. was - from some source, forgot which one - Bryan who had thought the assailant was far away but who in fact was already close to the tree nearby. I am still quite convinced that Cecilia had never seen Z's face nor had she seen him putting a mask on or whatsoever, at least is there no hint into such direction..

QT

Richard Grinell wrote:

Tahoe27 wrote:

Richard Grinell wrote:It is fairly evident by now that the "by knife" writing on the car door was not released prior to October 27th 1970. Therefore, putting aside police/investigators being responsible for the Halloween card, the only logical derivative, is that the Halloween card was created by the killer of Cecelia Shepard. That means the same copycat is responsible for both, or the Zodiac Killer is responsible for both. This would suggest that one person is inextricably linked to both.

It too, could just be a coincidence as it was known they were attacked "by knife", but that is a stretch...a possibility, but a stretch.

I have to wonder if any other communiques (future or otherwise) used the term "by rope", "by gun", or "by fire" in relation to any murders. Why stop with "by knife"?

I have already looked extensively and found nothing. Your finding of the Tim Holt comic and the wording By Fire, By Gun, By Rope and By Knife was excellent. We assume the creator of the Halloween card just stumbled across the comic prior to the mailing of the Halloween card. But what if he had found the comic prior to Lake Berryessa- it could have been the inspiration for the writing "by knife" on the car door, rather than the other way round.

I imagine it's something he probably saw in his youth.

Quicktrader wrote:

TheMist wrote:

Claypooles wrote:Had Cecilia Shepard known the assailant, she would have recognized his voice, maybe? The man talked quite a lot to her and BH, from what I can understand.

Maybe she would have known him by sight only, and maybe he knew that.

Very good point...we know that Darlene Ferrin had closed her windows at night, correct? Some peeping Tom issues? If Z had gone for the windows (Darlene Ferrin, possibly Betty Lou Jensen and Cecilia Shepard, too), then Cecilia would have known his face but not his voice. At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

If Z was 'stalking' his girls, he might have lived in the area, too. Same could have happened with CJB.

QT

What bugs me in all this stalking theory is that then the killer had to follow the couples he attacked everywhere until the right occasion to whack them showed up! To me this is faaaar-fetched, not plausible at all.

Claypooles wrote:

Quicktrader wrote:

TheMist wrote:
Maybe she would have known him by sight only, and maybe he knew that.

Very good point...we know that Darlene Ferrin had closed her windows at night, correct? Some peeping Tom issues? If Z had gone for the windows (Darlene Ferrin, possibly Betty Lou Jensen and Cecilia Shepard, too), then Cecilia would have known his face but not his voice. At the time she saw him, he had a gun anyway..

If Z was 'stalking' his girls, he might have lived in the area, too. Same could have happened with CJB.

QT

What bugs me in all this stalking theory is that then the killer had to follow the couples he attacked everywhere until the right occasion to whack them showed up! To me this is faaaar-fetched, not plausible at all.

Yeah. I do not think he stalked them long-term either, definitely not for longer than say for 30 minutes before an attack. It just seems too fictional that everyone he stalks magically ends up in a desolate place where he can then kill them. If he already stalked Darlene, how would he have managed to stalk Cecelia too, who at the time did not even live anywhere near? Stalkers generally do not stalk multiple unrelated people as it's time-consuming enough to stalk just one person only. I believe that he, as he stated in the letter, simply killed "lone people in the night" and these women just happened to be there.

Quicktrader wrote:
Those were moreless the last words of Cecilia Shepard.

No, those were by far not her last words. What you are seeing in the report is what she said to Ranger White when he first arrived and the couple named White. She didn't say much to either and was still in a very upset and scared state.

What I am referring to is what she said to Detective Lonergan (hope I spelled his name correctly) when he arrived. She had calmed down considerably when he arrived. None of what he noted she told him is in the police reports that we have access to. You can hear his own first hand account here, around the 101 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys&t=3983s

The interviewers asked why it isn't in the police report that she saw his face and he said "he didn't think it was important". But none of what he says is in the police report that I can find.

Now, he said he took notes and the next morning made a report, it's just a report we haven't been shown because the police held it back would be my guess. I always got the feeling when they asked Lonergan why it wasn't in the police report, he realized he had talked about something he wasn't suppose to.

Well, based on this statement I think you are right..still some doubts regarding her seeing Z without hood but ok. She did state to not having seen his face, though (according to e.g. Lonergan).

QT