Deer Lodge Question...

[vasa croe]

So, it was referred to that Z said he had escaped from Deer Lodge and killed a guard. Z is known to do things to throw others off. Could it be possible that Z was a guard himself at Deer Lodge and referred to escaping and killing a guard as a metaphor for himself escaping being a guard? Anyone know of a way to get a listing of guards at the prison at that time? I have been researching the escapees from there, but would figure that if it was really an escapee, they would not be stating they were as that would easily put a name to the individual if they just looked at records.

[masootz]

simplest answer is, if the killer was zodiac, he read about the deer lodge escapes from july and used that as his cover. although i have read literally thousands of theories over the years regarding zodiac sending secret hints and clues, i have yet to see any convincing evidence of the reality of zodiac doing anything other than being random.

[Pettibon Junction]

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, that he didn't known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I'm sure it's only because he read about the '68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there's no evidence in Bryan's initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

[masootz]

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, but didn't known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I'm sure it's only because he read about the '68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there's no evidence in Bryan's initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

haha, wow, i was just going to post almost exactly this. thank you!

the police report (ncsd crime report, page 6) indicates ranger white, who found the victims, stated "the male victim (hartnell) related to him that the subject advised him he was an ex-con out of Colorado".

the police report (ncsd crime report, page 17) indicating a preliminary conversation with hartnell indicated "suspect told victim he was sent to (?) Lodge State Prison (possibly Deer Lodge State Prison), Montana, for a killing".

in hartnell's hospital interview (page 2) he says "and he (perp) says 'nah.. time's running short,' he says, 'cause i just got out of...' - some prison in Montana, I don't know what the name of it is. Feathers? Do you know what the name of it is? I'll see if it sounds familiar. Fern or Feathers? It's some double name, like Fern Lock or something..." the cop then replies, "It's Lodge" and Hartnell says "Oh yeah, yeah, Lodge. At least we know we're together on that." Then the cop says "Mountain Lodge Prison, or something of that nature..."

i'm guessing someone checked out prisons in montana and came up with "deer lodge" although i agree with pettibon that i don't see anything that specific anywhere except in the rumor mill.

[Susie]

In his initial interview with the police, Hartnell said his attacker told him he escaped from a prison, but didn't known the name of it but thought it was somewhere in Colorado. I believe it was only after the detectives suggested Deer Lodge to Bryan that the Montana prison break story entered the Zodiac lore. If Z actually did mention Deer Lodge by name, I'm sure it's only because he read about the '68 break and used it to lend some credibility to his ruse, since it was news at the time. However, there's no evidence in Bryan's initial interview that Z was ever that specific.

I've stated that same thing several times. I have never believed there was a connection to Deer Lodge Prison. Even if Bryan was 100% positive that is what he stated, Z could have come up with that name from anywhere. I know people have argued that Deer Lodge had many issues back then and it may have been a cover-up and a guard was in fact murdered or that someone had escaped and was never caught, but I'm not buying it. I can not imagine that someone would not have come forward and stated that they had a relative that worked there and passed away under suspicious circumstances (if they tried to cover it up) or worked there and disappeared one night.

[Coffee Time]

There were a LOT of newspaper articles about Deer Lodge escapees at the time...in Montana newspapers. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Zodiac had some sort connection to Montana.

Also, Frank Dryman, Don Bujok & Ed Edwards, the former Deer Lodge inmates most often discussed in relation to Z:

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... =103&p=132

[Susie]

There were a LOT of newspaper articles about Deer Lodge escapees at the time...in Montana newspapers. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Zodiac had some sort connection to Montana.

Also, Frank Dryman, Don Bujok & Ed Edwards, the former Deer Lodge inmates most often discussed in relation to Z:

viewtopic.php?t=103&p=132

Or that could be where Z came up with the idea of claiming he escaped from that prison if in fact that is the one he stated. I read the main book about Ed Edwards and even the person that was trying to claim he was Z glossed over those crimes without any real proof (or much circumstantial evidence). I believe it was also proven that either Don or Frank (I forget which one at this moment) that was the other main focus of Z was in prison during LHR attack. He was paroled before, but not actually released until after. I do not disagree that all three are men that committed horrific crimes but I do not believe that any of them were Z.

[Coffee Time]

I mention a possible Montana connection for Z, as Deer Lodge escapees probably didn't get a lot of press in CA. If any California papers covered the topic, someone will hopefully bring them to our attention -- I get zero hits for them when searching Deer Lodge on Newspapers.com.

Both Dryman and Edwards were in prison during LHR. Bujok got out of prison just before LHR, but nobody's been able to establish that he was in California at the time (if ever). I'm open to the possibility that Zodiac got the crime scene details from a secondhand source (all that stuff was in the newspapers and/or police files), so I personally wouldn't exclude someone just because they were unavailable for LHR, but I know that's not a popular view.

Edwards mentioned Zodiac in his book (pointing his finger at, many believe, Bujok) and Zodiac went quiet just before Edwards' book came out. Edwards attacked couples, but he was on the small side (5' 7" and 150 lbs. when first incarcerated), the handwriting samples out there aren't terribly Zodiacish (though he was a bad speller) and he doesn't bear much of a resemblance to the Zodiac sketches. We do have his voice from that game show he appeared on, I wonder if Bryan Hartnell has listened to it? But yeah, I agree, there are better suspects.

[Soze]

Vasa,

Have you thought that perhaps it is not a question of him being a prisoner or guard but what the prison itself represents to the zodiac? From 1920 to 1975 there was a prison theater at deer lodge where both prisoners and civilians attended. Considering the Zodiac liked plays, would it have been possible that the Zodiac attended one prior to the theater burning in 1975? Another point to consider also, which I think is more important to the case, is the funding for this theater. WA Clark, montana's copper king, provided significant resources for this project. Clark was in a riff with Marcus Daly and F Augustus Heinz over mining in the area. Daly had backers such as George Hearst and John D Rockefeller. Both key players in the Zodiac case in other ways. John D Rockefeller, within his Standard Oil company, had Stephen V Harkness under the helm. Steven V Harkness is related by marriage to Frank Olin the founder of Western cartridge and the maker of super X ammo. Unless i am mistaken, i seem to recall that Steven v harkness was also a member of the sierra club. There is quite a little circle going on here where all these players seem to touch.

Soze

[vasa croe]

Vasa,

Have you thought that perhaps it is not a question of him being a prisoner or guard but what the prison itself represents to the zodiac? From 1920 to 1975 there was a prison theater at deer lodge where both prisoners and civilians attended. Considering the Zodiac liked plays, would it have been possible that the Zodiac attended one prior to the theater burning in 1975? Another point to consider also, which I think is more important to the case, is the funding for this theater. WA Clark, montana's copper king, provided significant resources for this project. Clark was in a riff with Marcus Daly and F Augustus Heinz over mining in the area. Daly had backers such as George Hearst and John D Rockefeller. Both key players in the Zodiac case in other ways. John D Rockefeller, within his Standard Oil company, had Stephen V Harkness under the helm. Steven V Harkness is related by marriage to Frank Olin the founder of Western cartridge and the maker of super X ammo. Unless i am mistaken, i seem to recall that Steven v harkness was also a member of the sierra club. There is quite a little circle going on here where all these players seem to touch.

Soze

Interesting....I have not run across this theater in my research of the area, though I have to admit I did not look for it either so I probably would not have. I am familiar with WA Clark being buddies with Warden Conley from the prison. I will have to check into this a bit more.

Thanks!