Zodiackillersite.com

Quicktrader wrote:

sandy betts wrote:She would call me whenever she received a scary phone call, I would get one with in a minute or so of hers.

If this is correct, Zodiac knows both of you. Have you ever spoken to Pam regarding people you both may know? Or places where Z could have met both of you? Please rethink, besides of your suspect, if there is anything like that..thx.

QT

We didn't have the same circle of friends , I am much older than she is . We didn't meet until March of 1990, yet we were both being followed and receiving scary phone calls long before we ever met. When I did find her that March 1990 in Antioch ,I was at her home for a few hours sharing information.

That same day there was a mean sounding message on my recorder when I got home, telling me to "stay away from Pam". ( It was a scratchy muffled screaming message , as if his vocal cords were damaged? )
Pam called me right away that same day to say that she received a call telling her to stay away from me.
We didn't let that stop us from meeting, we were very careful that we weren't followed , I carried my gun every day. There were times I would pick her up and have her hide in my car until we got inside my garage, then I would close the door and let her out.

We were both shot at , at different times inside of our homes. Her in her kitchen, me through my bedroom window. Police couldn't do anything because we didn't see who shot at us and there was never a witness.
Both of our dogs were shot also at different times, hers was on the evening of "Dec 20th", not sure which yr in the 90's it was? I don't remember the day mine was , but I don't believe it was on an anniversary date.
The only connection that I had with Darlene that I know of ,was that we both dated Buzz Gordon, I worked at the Coronado Inn where she hung out.One of my other boyfriends mentioned someone named Dee and had to drop off something at her home or had to pick something up, one day when I was with him. Other than that I don't think I knew her? My suspect seems to think I did know her, because he leaves me clues that pertain to her.
She probably knew about me if she was so in love with Buzz, because I dated him for about 5yrs. I have had thoughts that maybe she wanted me out of her way? The car he drove in 1968 was a lot like hers.

The muffled voice could have come from a towel or something put over the phone to make the voice irrecognizable..what's good is that there is a connection between both of you. It somehow shows that Z had not chosen his victims accidentially, at least not all of them. This is what Pam had claimed as well. If Buzz Gordon isn't Z, it might have been someone else who eventually had known him..thus had contact to both of you. Let's assume that Z went to the Coronado Inn - your suspect or someone else - either was looking for Dee (why killing Betty Lou and David before her?) or simply had indeed lived in the area.

QT

Quicktrader wrote:The muffled voice could have come from a towel or something put over the phone to make the voice irrecognizable..what's good is that there is a connection between both of you. It somehow shows that Z had not chosen his victims accidentially, at least not all of them. This is what Pam had claimed as well. If Buzz Gordon isn't Z, it might have been someone else who eventually had known him..thus had contact to both of you. Let's assume that Z went to the Coronado Inn - your suspect or someone else - either was looking for Dee (why killing Betty Lou and David before her?) or simply had indeed lived in the area.

QT

I do believe that Darlene is key to the case and that if she hadn't been thought to be killed at random by the investigators, they would have found what she was into and why she was killed. We were both popular waitresses , there was an article in the Richmond paper about me being a popular waitress, that could have gotten his attention or being a Vallejo speedway trophy queen a few times? Maybe I did something he didn't like? I wish I knew the answer.
This sick killer enjoyed killing, I can only guess that Betty Lou and David were in the wrong place at the wrong time and were random. That the killer just happened to see them parked there, perhaps on his way to or from work at Syar or Humble?
He loved the attention he was getting and continued to kill for that reason as well as despising loving couples, something he couldn't have perhaps?

Buzz was looked at as a suspect and had a 9 mil, did Zodiac come after me because I was dating Buzz and so was Darlene? Perhaps he thought that by killing both of Buzz's girlfriends Buzz would be a suspect?
I was very lucky to not be killed, Darlene was cheating on her husband and it looked like I was, so we had that in common as well as dating Buzz and both Vallejo waitresses.
When Buzz was proven not to be Zodiac, did Zodiac later plant his stuff and take my clothesline to blame my husband, I don't know, but it makes sense to me that is what was intended.
The yrs of torment by this person is all part of his entertainment, he could have killed me many times but he didn't, why I think because he liked the way I played his game? There were some possible attempts , until I took his picture. I told him on the phone one day that I gave his picture to all LE in Calif.and that if anything happened to me , even if my body was not found, they knew who he was and would catch him, that I wasn't afraid of being killed by him if it meant he would be caught.
I do believe that Zodiac lived in Vallejo and went to the Coronado Inn . Toni Anstey was taken from the Coronado's parking lot on March 13th 1970? One yr later on March 13th 1971 the LA letter from Pleasanton was sent.

Anybody think the hood may have been inspired by the Texarkana Moonlight Murders? Z would have probably heard about them at an impressionable age. The description is pretty frightening. He may have added his own touch after reading about the hood the killer wore when he attacked. More than anything the question is why did he wear the hood at LB? I don't doubt Sandy's story but personally don't believe the items were left by Zodiac. He wouldn't give away trophies that would help him fantasize about his crimes. Or he wouldn't just give away evidence either.

This was the only daylight murder, perhaps that is why he wore the hood. Although, the hood seemed to be only for the victims as there were a handful of people who thought they saw Zodiac when he was not wearing the hood. If he truly expected both his victims to die then the hood shouldn't have been necessary. Taking into consideration the distance the crime scene was to any kind of medical help there was every reason for Zodiac to believe both victims would die.

I do think that Zodiac was inspired by things he read and movies or plays he watched. I think he read detective magazines as well as books, so sure the Texarkana Murders could have made an impression on him.

Seagull wrote:This was the only daylight murder, perhaps that is why he wore the hood. Although, the hood seemed to be only for the victims as there were a handful of people who thought they saw Zodiac when he was not wearing the hood. If he truly expected both his victims to die then the hood shouldn't have been necessary. Taking into consideration the distance the crime scene was to any kind of medical help there was every reason for Zodiac to believe both victims would die.

Agree, and some other reasons the hood makes no sense:

1. He was trying very hard to keep Bryan and Cecelia calm throughout the attack, so why walk up to them with a virtual billboard advertising he was a notorious, merciless serial killer? Had they recognized the symbol as being The Zodiac Killer, they may have struggled, screamed, forced some gunshots, etc., which might have led to his capture, or at minimum made his escape far more perilous. At minimum, that certainly would've ruined his bigger plan by not given him the time to write on the car door, which seems to have been part of the plan as he had a marker handy.

2. His story was that he was on the run and needed some money... how and why does a guy in that situation come up with such a costume? The costume would seem to make his story much less believable to Bryan and Cecelia, even if they didn't associate it with a killer. As in, "I escaped from prison and have been on the run, but I stopped along the way to sew up this thing with this odd symbol, and now I need a few dollars to get on down the road..." If he was going to try to get Bryan and Cecelia to believe him, why wear something that contradicted his story?

3. With the other Z crimes, had he been stopped prior to, or even shortly after, the crimes, LE would not necessarily have connected him to the other Z murders. Presumably this is why he always used a different gun (as a side note, my guess is that the guns he used at LHR and BRS were tossed out his car window within a few miles of the crime scenes.) But at LB, had he been stopped before the attack, or while getting away, he had that costume with the Z symbol. It seems like a needless, dangerous thing to have with him.

In other words, the other Z crimes could not be associated with the killer until after he had successfully escaped, had time to feel safe, and then mailed letters to claim the crimes as his. With LB, this guy was identifiable as Z as soon as he set out with that costume.

I can see where a guy playing out a fantasy might create and wear such a costume, but as a practical matter, it was a very bad idea on several counts.

Ken Narlow believed the reason for the costume, was that the crime was being filmed by the Zodiac's partner in crime.

I tend to believe he was correct.

The white logo wasn't necessarily sewn, it could have been made to look as if it were sewn , like the one I made a copy of, which was done with white paint and a toothpick, pretty easy actually.

When Napa PD saw my copy ,they thought it was the real deal, I told them it was only a copy of what was put in my car. If I could be hypnotized , I would recall if it was sewn or not.

Anyone who knows how to sew, knows it is nearly impossible to to make a hood stand up straight with out wires and with 4 corners like a paper sack ,out of any sort of material. Try t if you don't believe me.
There was nothing elaborate about the costume I found, it could have been made within a few minutes.

I find it hard to believe of a conspiracy with z....if z had teamies i give them some accolades for keeping there mouth shut this long...40 plus years and nary a peep out of anybody who was associated and present with z...yet i still find the team z theory plausible....any other serial killers that you know with multiple players???...i cant really name any..... narlow was a great detective...his belief if that is correct info ftom sandy is as good a theory as any right now..i certainly can understand why he held that theory...

Snooter, What do you mean if that is correct what Sandy said? That is what Narlow said to more than just me , I do not make things up in case you didn't know !
If I am not sure of something I will say I am not sure, or this is what I think.

Are you serious that you can't think of any serial killers who had partners? The largest groups of serial killers were the Mafia and Manson Family.They still don't have all of the killers in the "Son Of Sam" murders. There have been several teams of killers like "The Hill side stranglers", are you kidding me?

It depends how you define serial killer...usually they appear normal and nobody would suspect..i belive z to be in this catagory and no conspiracy angle...after 40 plus years one of the partners would have talked by now...yes you can say jim jones, manson, etc was a serial murderer but that is not my definition....there may be 200 serial killers in the usa total but only 40ish of them are active at any given time..no im not insulting your character... i just never heard narlow thought multiple z suspects before