Items left at the scene

[Quicktrader]

We all know about Sandy Betts' POI who may or may not have been Z. Regardless this issue, we got one of the most interesting posts from her regarding the stuff that had been left inside her car. Most of us, I'd guess, had initially thought that the 'hood' was made out of wool, sewn etc.

Sandy mentioned it to be different..in detail she had told us about the hood being out of paper, stinking due to shoe polish or ink. In fact, the hood was mentioned to be out of 'papersack' (viewtopic.php?f=29&t=349). Let's assume for a moment that what she had found was actually the stuff that Z had left shortly after committing the crime.

- The stuff was found at the 'Scocal House' on the way to Vallejo
- Sandy was taken there by her neighbor, so someone else may or may not have parked the car there (husband?)
- The windows were down, so obviously her car was there for a short time only (Sandy, how and when did the car get there? What model/color was it? What time was it when you had arrived? Thx)
- Her husband might have been in the area, possibly being in the bar (was he?)
- She first saw a 'black cloth' about a yard and a half long,36 in wide, with what looked like a Chinese symbol in white on it, large enough to 'make something out of it'. She told her neighbor that she could make a skirt out of it (so it obviously appeared to be new or at least better quality? It being used as an overhang/bulge to cover the torso of Z?)
- The mask was found wadded up on the floor of the rear seat, with eye holes cut out (where the rear windows down, too?)
- The mask smelled bad, due to ink or shoe polish, obviously colored to match the black cloth.
- In addition to that, there was an ammo can with felt pens (Z letters?)
- Also three earrings were inside (Marie Antoinette 'Toni' Romo Anstey had a missing earring and was from Vallejo..however that one was later - earlier SRHM cases?)
- A 'small girls TIMEX wrist watch with a gray leather band' was found as well (belonging to whom?)
- Also a small bible, a radial 'compass' or ruler, two erasers - one of it being very large - inside
- A used green transparent plastic template of the alphabet with 3 or 4 graduating circles at the bottom (did Z use it to write his pre-1970 letters as well as his Z circles?)
- Under the ammo can (why under??) was a very old dictionary dated 1937 NY.London. Funk & Wagnalls and company, , one and a half inches by one inch and a half inch thick, with blood/ink spots on it.

To be honest, under the given circumstances (e.g. clothesline found at the home of Sandy Betts), the last driver of the car could easily become a suspect in the Lake Berryessa attack. I'd like to explain:

1.) The items named above obviously appear to be crime-related. Although no weapon had been found, the time frame, the area and the description of the items strongly appear to be related to the LB attack.

2.) It is most unlikely that Z had simply thrown this stuff into her car, without even knowing whom it actually belongs to:
- the car windows had been open, this may or may not have happened due to the odor of the inked mask, which could very well have disturbed any driver while driving away from the scene
- the things were actually not 'thrown' into the car spontaneously..otherwise the ammo box would have flipped, most stuff being in the front or the rear area of the car. Instead, the black clothes appears to have been in the front (second thing pulled off after sitting into the car) while the mask was in the rear (first thing pulled off and thrown/put into the rear). Also the bible was placed, possibly covered (because of the blood on it?) below the ammo box. The ammo box itself, standing on that tiny bible with all the conglomeration in it. It appears as if those things, especially the ammo box, had been placed quite conciously behind the car seat instead of them being simply thrown into the car to get rid of them.
- according to Sandy, other items had been placed at her home, e.g. the clothesline (wasn't there a knife finding years later, too?). The Scocal house, however, is not the identical to Sandy's home. So either someone had followed her, or, was tied to or familiar with both - the car and herself including her home address.

3.) There still is a possibility of the following scenario: Someone, whoever, had driven Sandy's car to the scene and committed the crime. After putting away some stuff he drives away to the Scocal House not expecting anybody to get back to his car earlier than him, possibly even getting drunk afterwards. However, Sandy does arrive, not knowing what those things were and/or if her husband 'had picked up some hitchhiker and they were both in the bar drinking or not?'.

This indeed raises various questions:

- If Z had 'placed' the stuff into Sandy's car, why did he place it so thoroughly? Why not simply throwing them into it? It may or may not be assumed that it had been placed by some cautious driver/owner?
- Can Sandy's husband be ruled out for 100% sure and could anybody else had been driving the car instead of him?
- How did the car get to the Scocal House and for how long did it stand there?
- Did Sandy definitely see the windows being pulled down or was she only told that they had been pulled down?
- What car model/make and color was her car and who had access to its keys during that day?
- How can any connection be made between the car at the Scocal House and Sandy's home address, if not the car itself or someone Sandy might have known?

Sandy telling the truth, which I don't doubt (wasn't there also the Cecilia heart in the ammo box, too?), implies that she is in a most positively way connected to this case. I'd like to know if, on that day, something else had happened which is even closer connected to her, her husband/car, LB and Z himself.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but under normal conditions I'd to prefer to go further here instead of analyzing ciphers. Any investigator, imo, would even take the given circumstances for a prosecution against the driver of the car, which obviously was full of evidence.

QT

It is now the end of Sept 1969, it was my day off and I didn't feel like being stuck at home with out my car. My husband was at the Scocal House a bar/ restaurant that sat off of the high way that took you to Vallejo. I asked my neighbor if she could give me a ride to my car ? She drove me and parked a few feet from where my car was. She helped me carry a few baby things while I held my 8 month old baby.

When we got to my car I noticed that there were some odd things that I knew were not things that my husband or I had. The windows were down because it was a very warm day. I wasn't sure if my husband had picked up some hitchhiker,and they were both in the bar drinking or not ? I saw a black cloth about a yard and a half long,36 in wide,with what looked like a Chinese symbol in white on it. It was large enough for me to make something out of it. I told my neighbor that I could make a skirt out of it,and go as a geisha girl for Halloween.

We both thought that was pretty funny ! I saw a paper sack that was some what wadded up on the floor of the back seat. I opened it up ,and saw that it was made like a mask with eye holes cut out. I don't remember if any other holes were cut out for the mouth or nose. I do remember that it smelled real bad and it filled the car with the odor of ink or shoe polish. It also was black to match the black cloth. On the floor of the back seat behind the seat a ammo can filled with felt tipped pens for drawing I thought. At the bottom of that can were 3 earrings and a small girls wrist watch with a gray leather band.

A small tool for making circles I call a radial compass. Also at the bottom was a real small Bible, one and a half inches by one inch, and a half inch thick. Two erasers one very large the other normal size. A green transparent plastic template of the alphabet with 3 or 4 graduating circles at the bottom. It had been used because I could see the dark ink lining the inside of each letter.
Under the ammo can was a very old dictionary dated 1937 NY.London. Funk & Wagnalls and company.

On the cover I saw what looked like small drops of blood and some black ink drops next to them. I know that this has to be like a smoking gun ! I have to keep it in a safety deposit box,in hopes that some day LE will check it for either the Victims or the Zodiac's blood. Heat could destroy the DNA so in a vault at a bank it is pretty cool. I did ask my husband if he gave someone a ride because I found all these strange things in the back seat of our car. He had no idea where they came from, and he didn't give anyone a ride. They had to be put in the car while it was parked at the Soscal House, because my husband would have smelled this odor that came from the paper sack, and he hadn't noticed any smell.

I look back on that day and wondered if the windows being down in the car was why the killer chose that car ? But then when you add the clothes line to the mix, it had to be connected or one hell of a coincidence! I had forgotten about the missing clothes line but the thief wanted me to remember. Someone and I assume it was my poi, many yrs and many moves later about 15yrs or so. I found a brand new white hollow core clothes line 50 ft of it to be exact, still in its package , sitting on my front porch. It was then that I recalled the missing clothes line from Napa. The thief bought me a new one to replace the one he took yrs before. I hope some day I will have the chance to thank him. (To be continued)
sandy betts

[morf13]

Maybe this belongs in the Sandy thread?? I personally do not believe the Hood or other evidence found by Sandy belonged to Zodiac. The hood that Sandy found was definitely NOT the hood described by Hartnell. So,if anything,I think Sandy had a joke played on her, or a stalker was trying to scare her, etc.There are a couple threads here already detailing the Berryessa attack,and specifically, the hood.

[Quicktrader]

Maybe this belongs in the Sandy thread?? I personally do not believe the Hood or other evidence found by Sandy belonged to Zodiac. The hood that Sandy found was definitely NOT the hood described by Hartnell. So,if anything,I think Sandy had a joke played on her, or a stalker was trying to scare her, etc.There are a couple threads here already detailing the Berryessa attack,and specifically, the hood.

I decided to put it here because I don't focus on her POI, nor on the hood.

What I do think is that we actually got a clue regarding the LB attack..at least if those items were from Z. Regarding the hood, as far as I can say, it fits the Z sketch perfectly: Flat on the top, square-like, papersack - exactly like an dyed/inked shopping paperbag. In combination with an overhang, we got exactly what is shown and described in the sketch. Please let me know if there is any essential difference between the hood of Sandy and the hood in the sketch?

Sandy's POI I can't say very much about. Only that if I was a suspect in a homicide case, I might find it to be a good idea to frighten and distract someone close to me from getting closer to the idea that it I was responsible for a murder. Also, if I was a killer, I would better not tell my friends nor my family members about it, not even in 40 years. A death penalty or life term is not so much fun, especially if you don't expect to be caught. Never would I blame anybody, but what if the driver actually had gone into the Scocal House shortly after the killing and actually got surprised by Sandy, showing up unexpectedly? Finding 95% of the evidence inside her own car? This could indeed cause some stress..and the shortest way to a.) take or b.) put some clothesline from/to her house is known to all of us - from the street's side, from the neighbor's side - or from the inside. Again, we don't know anything in detail. But if i had to make a guess, however, on which side of the car the ammo box was standing, my guess would be that it stood rather behind the passenger's instead of the driver's seat. With the black clothes lying on the passenger seat, too. However, Sandy is the one who knows about these details (and possibly her neighbor).

Even if we ignore the brown car, Sandy had ties to the Coronado Inn and therefore was presumably close to Darlene Ferrin, too, and so was her husband (and e.g. his friends).

Someone obviously had tried to frighten Sandy..but why? Why her? Why now and over multiple years? Nobody actually would know that Sandy had started with investigations in the homicide, ain't that true? And, in fact, she is still frightened of Z like hell, isn't she? Is someone trying to distract her from getting the idea that the 'bad' doesn't look like the guys in CSI Miami?

I am curious. I am curious about the model of her car, its tire distance and about possible differences between the hood described by her and the one described by Hartnell. Curious about how her car had gotten to the Scocal House, and if she had seen the windows already being pulled down or not. And about the Scocal House itself. Also I am curious about the clothesline - the one which had disappeared from Sandy's place, and the other one that was brought 'back'. I am curious about the car keys, her husband's alibi and his shoe size and about what Hartnell had said about the mask ('ingeniously devised' - meaning it to be wadded inside?). I am curious about the windbreaker, which fits the Stine scene and that Harnell had described. And if Sandy had ever seen clip-on sunglasses before (Hartnell didn't think that he had worn glasses, btw). And whom the earrings and the girls wrist watch had belonged to (Susan Nason?). And about the 'drawl' Hartnell had described and which he had heard before ('almost as if I'd heard it before..couldn't think where'). About him describing the hood as having 'four corners on the top, like the top of a papersack'. And about the 'kind of a thing that came over the shoulders' (black clothes) and about the same thing 'down the back, straight down'.

QT

[sandy betts]

The tiny Bible was actually a prayer book, it was at the bottom inside of the ammo and not at the bottom of the pile of things left behind the driver’s seat. The plastic heart with the name Cecilia on the front of it and a poem on the back, may not have been found that day? I would think that would have gotten my attention to the crime, unless I didn't know what their names were, only that a boy and girl had been stabbed at the lake, and that the killer wore a mask.I really don't remember when I found the heart or where. All of the car windows were down when I got to the car, I rolled them up when I got in because I had my baby with me and wouldn't want him to get an ear ache from the wind. That is when the smell became intense with the windows closed. My husband was the one who drove the car to the Soscal House and was there probably a hour or so before I went there. Back then, leaving your car unlocked and windows down was common. (I wouldn't do that today)

My husband didn't have a mean bone in his body, he never raised his voice at me or our children, he just spent way too much time in bars and wasn't home a lot, is why I divorced him. We are still good friends to this day.
July 1st 69 my father died unexpectedly /mysteriously. So My husband and myself went to console my mother in Walnut creek and planned the burial, which was on July 5th. He could not have killed Darlene and on Sept 27th we both worked in Vallejo ,our shifts started at 6pm and ended at 2am. So He wasn't at Lake Berryessa or Blue Rock on those dates. We can exclude him as being Zodiac. I am very sure that the man who followed me from Vallejo in 68 and who I took the picture of in 1990, are one and the same and that he is the man I believe is Zodiac.His friend RH is the other one who needs to be looked at.( That is the one with the shaved head who talks like Zodiac was known to talk like )

QT, our car was a dark brown Pontiac Bonneville 1961-63 ? It had 4 doors and all of the windows were down that day. The clothes line that was taken in Napa Sept 69, was a bit thicker than the one put on my porch some 15 or 16 yrs later, in another town and many moves later. That tells me that this person kept his eyes on me where ever I moved . Many things did happen to me over the yrs, like phone calls and my cars being tampered with. Some older man tried to run me down in Pleasant hill early 70's when I got off of work at Rick's lounge. He drove a station wagon with a rack on top and the sides were wooden panels. He had light hair in a crew cut , but it didn't look dark brown.

[sandy betts]

Maybe this belongs in the Sandy thread?? I personally do not believe the Hood or other evidence found by Sandy belonged to Zodiac. The hood that Sandy found was definitely NOT the hood described by Hartnell. So,if anything,I think Sandy had a joke played on her, or a stalker was trying to scare her, etc.There are a couple threads here already detailing the Berryessa attack,and specifically, the hood.

It is what Hartnell described to the police according to what the artist drew of the costume, saying it looked like a "paper sack". And how would someone figure out a costume that looked even remotely close to what it actually looked like before anyone read about it in any paper ? They were stabbed on the 27th, I found it on the 28th or 29th before the news was out about it. Are you saying that who ever did this predicted that Zodiac would be killing at Lake Berryessa on the 27th and would ware a black costume? I could believe it was a sick joke if it were weeks later but not with in hours, come on ! Plus he would have to know before hand that the killer would be using the same sort of clothes line I had ?

You are still thinking that the costume was in one piece, when Hartnell said himself he was able to see the killers jacket collar under the hood ? That could not have been seen under the hood, if it was in one piece,only if it was in two parts like what I found. You can bury this under my thread if you want, but this is about solving the "Zodiac" case and not just about my suspect.

[Tahoe27]

I always took it as Hartnell stating it was shaped like a paper bag.

It would seem to me a paper bag painted black would have simply been stated by Hartnell as being a black paper bag. There would be no mistaking a paper bag.

I too believe that stuff was put in your car Sandy--I just doubt the guy/Zodiac at LB donned a paper bag.

[Quagmire]

Yes, it does seem weird that he would go to the effort of elaborately stitching together a bib with his super villain insignia on the front to then finish it all off with a paper bag on his head...

[Time traveler]

Bryan never said he smelled any ink like odor on Zodiac.He was for sure the hood was cloth not a colored up paper bag.

[Quicktrader]

Bryan never said he smelled any ink like odor on Zodiac.He was for sure the hood was cloth not a colored up paper bag.

IMO this is incorrect. He might have smelled it or not, but in any case he mentioned it had been like a 'papersack'.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html

BTW, do we have any hint at all that something was sewn? Or that the mask, not the buldge, was out of textile? Although it might be comfortable to imagine (actually both is), I wouldn't even bet 50 cents on it if Hartnell hadn't mentioned it..

QT

[Tahoe27]

He stated it had four corners "like" a paper bag. Not that it WAS a paper bag.