Zodiackillersite.com

Thanks T.

Good points but I'm still not sure. Maybe it was him and for some backwards reason broad daylight made him think he was invisible? Now if he'd had the hood on I'd be more convinced lol.

"Assuming it actually was Z it's not beyond a possibility but why didn't he then? He changed his mind? sure, lets allow him that but that's my point, why then drive just down the road and attack someone. If he absolutely had to kill that day why further compound his recklessness doing it so close to being observed for an extended length of time?"

Because, with all due respect, that is his MO! A suspicious vehicle (very likely the Zodiac) was seen intimidating motorists along Lake Herman Road in the hours before the Faraday/Jensen double-murder of December 20, 1968. Similarly, Mike Mageau reported his attacker as having pulled in beside him and Darlene Ferrin at Blue Rock Springs, left, and returned before opening fire. Spending any amount of time, however substantial or insignificant, lurking and sizing up potential victims at Lake Berryessa before settling on Hartnell and Shepherd is entirely within character given what we know about the Zodiac and to speculate about some unknown second creep in the park that day is, in my opinion, a fool's errand.

I've no problem with it being Z I'm just trying to get my head around the behavior and what we know of Z's confirmed actions in all the attacks. Whilst I'm thinking about it does anyone know if the model of this guy's car had a wheelbase that would have been compatible with the treads found at the attack site?

It's the being observed bit that I can't quite understand. Maybe it is what it is and there's no real logic to it. It's just that he didn't really like to be seen, did he? Or is there something else going on there? As I listed earlier, attacks at night, blinds his targets with a flashlight, wears a hood during a day attack. I mean he takes these steps apparently to stop his victims seeing his face so why be so observable to three potential victims in daylight? And why did it take so long and again why did he change his mind? He knew it was 3 girls so I'm assuming it wasn't that. After all he left his car and, assuming it was Z why didn't he attack? Why did he have to follow them and watch them for 20 mins or so to change his mind?

Then he attacks just down the road. Why did he not change his mind then? What was more acceptable? Just two victims, one male, one female. Certainly fits his previous attacks regarding that aspect of MO. It's also more isolated. And he commits. So it's perfect for him, right? How come he couldn't figure that out if it was him watching the girls? Why did he have to leave his car to figure it out? And why did it take so long to then decide nah, this isn't going to work?

I know he's allowed to change his mind, assess a situation, account for potential problems and pick his moment etc but to dilly dally about apparently trying to make up his mind. What's going on there?

If we accept that it was him that terrorized KJ then we do have an example of just that behavior but I guess you could argue that the baby and being pregnant was the stumbling block there although he certainly took a long time to think about it. So what changed his mind about the 3 girls? What did he have to watch them for to make up his mind? He sure as hell didn't have that problem with Bryan and Ceclia. He sees the 2 seater and off he goes. Hood, knife, gun, holster, clothesline. He knows it's 2 people and it's go time. Quite possibly he knew the terrain and the location as well. And he writes on the car (again something he presumably came prepared to do)

He came prepared, he planned it as best he could allow. There were certain things he wanted to achieve so he had, as best he could, ran the scenario and acceptable variations through his head. So why then on the day suddenly have a potential major rethink involving the number of potential victims and the location?

It's not that I don't buy or accept it being him. I just don't understand what he was doing. It's not like going shopping for coffee and deciding you suddenly want tea instead. He came prepared so he must have thought it through. I don't understand how that couldn't have included the number of victims. That's a pretty big thing to leave out of your planning or to attempt to plan for on the fly on the day at the location. 2 victims were manageable, 2 victims were what he got, isolated location and the car to write on.

If it was Z I find it difficult to assume he was considering (for 20 mins) an attack on 3 victims. What was he doing? Hanging around, undecided as to who or how many to attack? Waiting for the right amount at the wrong location and having a dry run sans holster, scabbard, knife and gun (presumably)? Ok, they were in the car. Why doesn't he commit? What is it he has to decide? Why does he have to leave his car to do it? and why are Bryan and Cecelia so perfect that he parks up, dons all his gear, makes a beeline straight for them, even calculating the best best spot to don the hood so as not to spook them.

Seems like he knew what he was looking for so again, what was he doing if it was him the 3 girls saw?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

It is my contention that the various irregularities and idiosyncracies in Z's behavior can be chalked up to the fact that he's not a particularly organized killer (despite the airs of practiced supervillainy flouted in his communiques). Rather, Zodiac fits a mixed organized/disorganized model. Ironically, his spending time at the crime scenes prior to his attacks is in line with the organized model, as he was likely establishing the level of comfort necessary to facilitate carrying them out, in essence casing the joint. (Which indicates we wouldn't necessarily be looking for a suspect who was intimately familiar with Lake Berryessa.) But, as you said, he did this in broad daylight and in a manner that was blatant and menacing (as evidenced by the number of witnesses who felt uncomfortable enough with his presence to come forward after the fact). He also thought ahead to bring the adequate supplies (i.e., weapons) as well as the lengths of pre-cut rope he used to bind his victims.

He waited until it was nearly dark and the park had cleared out before approaching Bryan and Cecelia. On the surface, this is organized behavior but again, he hung around ALL AFTERNOON and was seen by half a dozen different people. At this point, it's important to acknowledge that on a basic level this is a disorganized crime simply by its nature. He attacked TWO victims simultaneously, outdoors, in a fairly accessible public place, and in broad daylight. He left plenty of witnesses, which is significant as he did not bother staging an abduction or hiding the bodies of his victims once he was finished with them, thus buying lead time or, in the event the murder went undiscovered, disguising that a crime had even been committed. Zodiac brought the knife, ostensibly because it was quieter, but didn't bother to ensure that Bryan or Cecelia were dead before fleeing the scene.

A hallmark of the psychopathic personality, and one that many of us with working consciences can't rationally comprehend, is compulsion. Serial killers are inherently compulsive personalities. For them, the normal urges toward petty violence that the rest of us suppress, sublimate, or brush off on a daily basis, simply MUST be indulged, though a pure organized offender is careful to the extent that it allows him to remain at large. Zodiac took some precautions, but he was also stunningly sloppy and, more than likely, not nearly as smart as he'd have us believe he was.

There is also the element of ritual. The hood, the bindings, the need to take credit indicate that this murder was ceremonial and highly personal to the killer. To deviate from the plan would have upset the ritual but, because he was sloppy, the plan he was adhering to was deeply flawed from the outset and this carelessness culminated weeks later with the events of Presidio Heights that, in my very humble opinion, effectively spooked the Zodiac into cutting short his career as a killer.

We must remember this person was watching these girls from above, lurking behind trees. He wasn't sunbathing with them. He was accessing the situation, imo.

Who knows why he didn't carry it out--if that was his intention. He did end up down by them, but turned away--didn't say "hello"...he avoided them.

We also don't know how long he may have been watching Bryan and Cecelia.

I was going to do that thing where you re-post parts of someone's post and then answer underneath but I'm being lazy lol so forgive me for attempting to paraphrase to ask my questions and/or offer my thoughts.

First of all the only confirmed witnesses after the fact were Bryan and Cecelia (tragically briefly) and neither saw his face. To say that he was seen by many witnesses is not conclusively verifiable. Hence this thread and discussion.

As to the model I can agree on principle but I'm not sure it's so set in stone. Compulsion yes, I can go for that and I can even accept that by it's very nature it can add a lot of uncertainties to a situation or plan. The thing about compulsion though is that it doesn't negate planning. If anything it actually focuses it because you HAVE to have what you want but you can still be aware that it is not the right thing and therefore to avoid guilt (which is more of a game spoiler) you are also compelled to cover all eventualities in your head. One such eventuality in this scenario is getting caught so in that respect Z's behavior, assuming it was him the girls saw, does not tally with compulsive behavior.

Even if we are to allow for compulsion that suddenly strikes him while he happens to just be at the location it still doesn't tally because he came prepared. So if he was 'compelled' for days then he was planning for days and I don't see, especially with compulsion, how the incident with the girls fits in. It doesn't make sense.

Further more the inclusion of the hood supports this. The pre-fantasizing. Suggesting quite strongly that it had to be as close to what he wanted it to be, in fact I don't doubt that he played it in his head so strongly that he would almost have no choice but to carry it out the way it happened. If anything it was the time after the attack that would have been less controlled because his need was fulfilled and therefore his drive would start to subside. This might be why his hands were shaking prior to it but after he was able to write on the car with no apparent problem.

The only thing I can think of, in this scenario, that might explain him being who the girls saw would be that he was having second thoughts about doing his thing. I can't quite tally that either though because given the amount of elements involved in the event, any doubt or even deviation would have ruined it for him. He had to remain compelled to get there, with all of his prepared kill kit, find his perfect victims at the perfect spot, write his message (most likely pre-practiced and decided on), leave and complete with the phone call. Nothing less would satisfy. So again, the 3 girls incident doesn't make sense, to me. If it had taken place a day or a week before then yes I could go for that but not on the day it happened.

Now. That's the compulsion side of things and given what we do know about this attack and his writings it does 'seem' that it could have played a big part. This was his fantasy and his alone. It was so personal to him that even his victims weren't allowed to share in it. And it was personal "even better than getting your rocks off with a girl". He didn't want anything to spoil it, so much so that he didn't even want his victims to see him whilst he did it. Secret, hidden, private.

He wasn't that sloppy if you ask me. Reckless, risky, absolutely but that comes with the compulsion. He would have known that though so in some ways he was probably and paradoxically even more careful.

Soooooo ... I've probably confused myself even more lol but I still don't see, or can't reconcile the 3 girls incident.

traveller1st wrote:Whilst I'm thinking about it does anyone know if the model of this guy's car had a wheelbase that would have been compatible with the treads found at the attack site?

Reading back is a wonderful thing lol. Thanks Bay.

Bayarea60s wrote:If the person the 3 gals saw was Z. And the car Z was driving was found to be the one the cops think was parked behind Bryan's car. Then we have 2 different cars. The wheelbase the cops measured, does not match the car, '66-67 Chevy the 3 gals got a very good look at.

That is a compelling point - about the cars, I mean.

The question is how much weight we can put on the girls' testimony here - a Chevrolet, fairly recent model, quite "conservative" car (I think that's what they said)...precisely what model do we think he drove and is that absolutely incompatible with the tracks behind BH's car?

..and how is there proof the car 20' behind Bryan's was their attacker's?

No prints to and from Bryan's car, or from the path to the attacker's car. Those tire tracks could simply be from another vehicle.

Would he park there and stab people risking someone else pulling in while he was doing his deed? Another man was seen walking the trail just north of there...same description.

Tahoe27 wrote:..and how is there proof the car 20' behind Bryan's was their attacker's?

No prints to and from Bryan's car, or from the path to the attacker's car. Those tire tracks could simply be from another vehicle.

Would he park there and stab people risking someone else pulling in while he was doing his deed? Another man was seen walking the trail just north of there...same description.

To reply in reverse order. I would surmise that having his car parked there would be of potential cover value whilst writing on Bryan's car. As to the prints there weren't a continuous trail of prints anyway so it's no guarantee that prints would be left at the car/cars.

The other thing I'm thinking as well is that he carrying his 'gear' so I wouldn't imagine he would want to be walking around with that for too long considering what he had just done so not only carrying stuff but having to get back to his car after having expended a reasonable amount of energy. Also, assuming he didn't park there, where would be the closest place he could have parked and been able to make it into Napa to make the phonecall? It wouldn't have been too far surely so why not where we think it was.?