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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:28 pm
by Tahoe27
Paul_Averly...in another thread you mentioned you thought the 3 girls saw Zodiac and you were going to create a thread showing this.

Why do you think they were the same person?

Paul_Averly wrote:
Israelite Wolfman wrote:The mysterious guy (who was probably just a weirdo pervert "watcher") from Lake Berryessa may have been there on the same day by coincidence, and he was described as 6 foot tall not 6'2". I can't imagine a person's height can be so misjudged that he will go from being 6'2" in real life to being mistaken for a short guy.


You wrote: viewtopic.php?f=106&t=3138&p=53888#p53888

Your points have major flaws.

The mysterious guy (who was probably just a weirdo pervert "watcher")
"*Dismiss any and all possibility that this person could very well be Zodiac".

and he was described as 6 foot tall not 6'2".
"There were multiple descriptions, some that say over 6'. So you are also incorrect in this point."

I can't imagine a person's height can be so misjudged...
"Odds are this was the same person, so yes, witness descriptions have a normal thing called inconsistencies."

*"If I ever get around to it, I'm going to start a new thread that lists out very clearly why the evidence suggests the person seen at the lake was Zodiac."

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:40 pm
by Paul_Averly
Paul_Averly wrote:
Tahoe27 wrote:I have my (strong) doubts the person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia was the Zodiac.


So he was the worlds greatest copy-cat?

Lets see, he :
-Correctly copied Zodiac's handwriting, including special traits that had not been established in the few letters mailed up to that point.
-Correctly imitated Zodiac's monotone voice.
-Correctly copied Zodiac's monotone voice and script in his call to police.
-Correctly guessed that Zodiac would be seen wearing pleated pants and engineering boots at the later PH crime scene.
-Knew to use the "candy cane F" on the car door, even though that trait had not been clearly established.
-Knew that Z would later send a letter to Paul Avery, containing "By Knife" and wrote it on the car door.

And even though he correctly copied all that, he didn't copy the standard Z MO of gunning down people in a parked car and made up his own MO.
(strong) doubts?


Tahoe27 wrote:The voices did not match. Nancy Slover thought the voice was similar to Gaikowski's,
:roll:

Tahoe27 wrote:And because Zodiac in S.F. wore BROWN, pleated pants..(no mention of engineering shoes) we have a match?


So the PH Zodiac copied the outdated pleated pants from LB Zodiac? Probably just another coincidence they BOTH wore pleated pants.
(Different colors clearly point to a different suspect)

*Fouke mentioned the "engineering type boots" in an interview years later, probably just another coincidence.

Tahoe27 wrote:I think someone wanted to commit murder and make it look like Zodiac did it.
:roll: :roll:

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:41 pm
by Paul_Averly
Pettibon Junction wrote:It may probably be time for me to step away from the case for a while, if not permanently, because it's been overrun once again with a level of magical thinking that I've not seen since Maury Terry's heyday: all this talk of copycats and the prevalence Horan's asinine "Zodiac didn't exist!" circus barking, last year's nihilistic Ted Cruz meme, and the continued flood of "daddy did it" books crowding the true crime shelf at Barnes & Noble have led us hopelessly, hopelessly astray.

I love this board but y'all are fishing in the wrong pool with this multiple Z thing and by doubting that Berryessa was the work of someone else based on M.O. alone. M..O. changes but signature doesn't and the signature here was EXACTLY THE SAME as what we saw in Vallejo. By casting doubt upon the identity of the murderer as well as maintaining that the eyewitness descriptions were of someone else, we're blowing the best lead we have. It's so frustrating.

The Zodiac was a real guy, he existed, he hurt people, and he may well be still out there somewhere collecting social security. I'm just of the opinion that what's simple about this case (i.e., the crime scenes) is where the truth will be found and that by needlessly complicating things, we're feeding into exactly the sense of grandeur this creep coveted for himself.


I'm with you PJ.

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:28 pm
by Tahoe27
Feel free to go with the first part, Paul.

Thanks for rolling eye replies though and lack of reply to my question. That is really informative.

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:52 pm
by Paul_Averly
I listed several reasons as to why Zodiac was the LB suspect above. And it all follows the evidence.

You are making the very flawed claim that LB was a hoax/copy cat.
I continue to point out information that wasn't available to copy at the time of the crime.

Your logic continues as follows:
If info was published = clearly copied.
If info was not published = coincidence.

I'll let Michael Butterfield speak to your "hoax theory" and you might want to listen to what he has to say about it.

@ 41:11
https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/hous ... 9_41-07_00

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:45 pm
by Tahoe27
I don't care what Michael Butterfield has to say.

I don't think LB was a hoax. It was very much, real. But, thanks for calling it my "hoax theory". ..Oh wait. :roll: :roll:

I don't think anything was a coincidence, and yes, nut-jobs copied Zodiac. Hundreds in fact. One even wrote his "name" in blood on a wall after a murder.

But my question wasn't about why Zodiac was the LB suspect. You mentioned you were going to start a "new thread that lists out very clearly why the evidence suggests the person seen at the lake was Zodiac." ---So, what is your reasoning that the guy the girls saw, and the guy who attacked Bryan and Cecelia were the same man?

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:01 am
by StitchMallone
Here is the thing and don't agree with Tahoe! But makes some sense and only time Zodiac truly proved himself after sending pieces of Stine's shirt. Why did he feel he needed to show full proof ? Insecure because LB wasn't him ? Again still think that was Zodiac but always keep a open mind! Anyone feels they need a break understandably but please come back. None of of us knows the answers! I like this board that a open mind can be cherished!

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:59 am
by Dag MacLugh
Re the engineer boots. Might they have been Wing Walkers, known in the Navy as boondockers? That would tie in with the Bates murder. Incidentally, what type of shoe prints were found at other Zodiac murder sites?

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:41 am
by Tahoe27
Dag--Wing Walkers prints were only found at the LB site.

As far as Fouke, in his (very) descriptive memo, all he mentions is "may have been wearing low cut shoes". I'm not too keen on the (40 year later) revelations.

Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:05 pm
by Seagull
Where do the engineer boots come in?

The DOJ report states that the heel print at the CJB crime scene was like the heels that were on "low quarter military type shoes" that were seen on black dress shoes. These heels were prison made.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DOJ33.html

Wing walkers had a different heel.

Fouke's memo says that the person he saw "may have been wearing low cut shoes".

http://www.zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

Wing walkers were higher than low cut shoes, not what I would consider a full fledged boot but came up over the ankle bone.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&aut ... jzEEDnWLow


I did a Google image search for engineer boots and the results were all full fledged boots that had a strap and buckle around the ankle area.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&aut ... F1EovM8mg8