The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Discussion of Zodiac Victims Shepard & Hartnell

The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:43 pm

3/18/10

The girls: 28/30/40 years old. Dark hair/black hair. Neatly combed.
Bryan: 20/30. Dark hair. Combed.


The girls: dark pants, dark pull over shirt, about 200-220lbs/black sweater shirt, BUNCHED UP IN FRONT.

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Bryan: stomach hanging over trousers, dark pants/shirt/jacket, around 225-250. (note..Bryan never actually saw his stomach.)

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One of the girls thought she saw a "white belt around his back", but it possibly was a t-shirt hanging out. (I believe this was the clothesline)

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Bryan:

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http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

**Wouldn't you wear your t-shirt UNDER your shirt/sweather? Not too many people walking around in dark trousers and dark sweater/shirts while others are sun-bathing. One description had the shirt as black with red in it. Convenient if trying to cover-up blood.

We KNOW there was a guy creeping around the shoreline who pretty much fit Bryan's description.
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:45 pm

***

Bryan Hartnell interview with LE, September 28, 1969


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http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html




The Girls Report: "Straight, dark hair, neatly combed".
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

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***
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:49 pm

Nin wrote:
morf13 wrote:Can anyone who is good with Google earth, post a photo here of the scene of the attack, and the spot where the gils saw this guy? How far apart were the two spots?


Here is a map with the app. locations of the 3 girls (A&W stand, then 2 miles North parking, they were somewhere closer to the beach), the Dr and the son (can only determine the location in relation to Knoxville road, they might have been closer to the beach), and the crime location:

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3/22/10
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:54 pm

The first girl interviewed states they arrived around 3:30. About 30 later they saw the guy and he watched them for about 45 minutes. He was seen observing them from the trees. It's mentioned he walked "from south to north"....like with Bryan & Cecelia.

So 4:45 ish.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport9.html 3/22/10
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:55 pm

3/22/10
morf13 wrote:Thanks for the thoughts everyone. The problem is that we dont know for sure if the guy they saw was zodiac. The guy they saw looked nothing like the Stine Zodiac sketch, and looked alot younger,IMO.
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:53 am

3/23/10
Nin wrote:Did he want to be seen by the 3 girls earlier in the afternoon and by the father and son at around 6:30?? Think alibi, just in case..2 cars? That might be an explanation why he was there (if it was Z) earlier in the day, then disappeared, then launched his attack, wrote down the - wrong - time, used the 2nd car..moves the car (he would be anywhere much faster with car), thinking he will be okay as park headquarter was located South of him..makes sure he is being viewed (again).

That's when the hood really kicks in, since now he has an alibi -just in case- and he would not be recognized in case of survivors. Just saying.

-Nin


3/24/10
Solar Pons wrote:The girls saw the guy at the Lake, let's be honest any guy spending 40 odd minutes and more hiding in amongst trees and in general creeping around the area is not exhibiting normal behaviour. He had on the same clothes minus jacket as described by the doctor and his son nearly two hours later, near the crime scene, walking between the road and the lake, so again he was amongst the trees.
On spotting the doctor and his son, with gun he goes in the opposite direction, he was avoiding them, given the time scale when they saw him, I believe he had already carried out the LB attack, I think he was coming away from the crime scene.

I also think that he wrote the time on the door later than the actual attack took place. 6.30 instead of say even ten minutes earlier, gives him time to place himself further away from the crime scene.

A lot of the info makes me believe that the guy the girls saw was the killer. There is a big discrepency between the ages and general description of the LB and PH attackers. The girls at LB more or less decide on 30 for the age the same as the doctor and his son. At PH we have a higher bracket as much as 45.

I used the Flashface program (not great, can't shade and what have you) to come up with a general representation of the LB attacker with and without the glasses. I tried to include the basic features as in round face, round eyes and hair. http://img156.imageshack.us/i/lbcompremakebysp.jpg/ and with glasses on http://img522.imageshack.us/i/lbcomprem ... asses.jpg/

Their not perfect and I have no witnesses to look them over but I think compared next to the Stine composite, even in basic descriptions they are very different.

The attacker of Paul Hom sounds more like the guy that the girls saw at LB , described by the cabbie as mid twenties. Thats why the PH composite to me is confusing, we are told it was done by the kids yet features drawn in like the wrinkled forehead, eyes they saw that from across a darkened street from some distance.Look at Ricardo's video on You Tube. I personally am thinking that the Stine composite is not all that reliable. The girls and the doctor got a much better look and I do believe the guy that killed Cecillia was the same guy that they saw and they got a much better look in broad daylight.

Edit: I think he was also comfortable with LB, when the doctors son David saw him he was not carrying anything, no sign of holster or scabard etc, I think he had probably been hiding them away from the attack. Poss in anticipation of the victims being discovered and poss roadblocks/car searches. I think it shows good knowledge of the area, I don't think he was the guy that ran into the store looking for the quickest route away from the lake.
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:09 am

3/28/10
morf13 wrote:Here's an article that mentions the girls witnessing the strange guy watching them. One thing I never understand....the paper mentions the girls seeing him, yet it doesnt give a description. Also, no sketch. I think there were some missed chances to get help from the public early on.
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Also of note, the article says they found footprints leading 400 yds down to the victims, and back up, and then mentions the car parked behind them. I think it is safe to say that Z was not on foot, and did pull up behind their car...at least according to the article
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:18 am

7/7/10

bentley wrote:This article answers something I had been wondering about. So at least 10 days prior to the Stine murder the LB composite was published. I've had this idea that Z, if this was indeed him, saw this and got himself an immediate crew cut, as seen at PH. Perhaps this, and the glasses were the disguise he alluded to. Doesn't explain the fatter face I know, perhaps chalked up to the varied witnesses and sketch artists?

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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Time traveler » Fri May 16, 2014 5:38 pm

I don't see why most everyone wants the presidio sketch to be zodiac.I mean what you going to believe witnesses on a foggy san Francisco night or 3 witnesses on a sunny afternoon.The lake berryessa suspect also had a full round face just like what Mike said the zodiac had.Anyone who doesn't think that the lake berryessa suspect was zodiac you all should have holes in your heads.
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Re: The 3 Girls - I Think Saw Who Attacked Bryan & Cecelia

Postby Tahoe27 » Fri May 16, 2014 6:14 pm

Time traveler wrote:I don't see why most everyone wants the presidio sketch to be zodiac.I mean what you going to believe witnesses on a foggy san Francisco night or 3 witnesses on a sunny afternoon.The lake berryessa suspect also had a full round face just like what Mike said the zodiac had.Anyone who doesn't think that the lake berryessa suspect was zodiac you all should have holes in your heads.


I guess the argument there would be the kids actually saw Zodiac.

Michael Mageau's description of a large face may end there when it comes to a match of the LB composite.

But it's nice to know you feel some of us should have holes in our heads because we don't share your opinion. ;)
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"...they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs--other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac's doorstep." L.A. Times, 1969
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