Zodiackillersite.com

My overriding theory is that police generally tell the truth unless they have a good motivation to lie and serial killers (we'll count Z among them for the sake of argument) generally lie unless they have a good motivation to tell the truth. The encounter between Fouke, Zelms and Zodiac challenges that theory. I would still peg Zodiac as more likely to lie about fundamental issues like what he looked like at the time and how he got away from the crime scene.

"Say - the two of them are in a patrol car looking for a BMA - but both "speak to "The Zodiac" Face To Face". That doesn't sound fishy to you?"

No, I said months ago that I don't believe the 'incorrect suspect description by dispatcher' story. My own opinion is that that story of a black suspect given as the description incorrectly was just something they had to come up with afterwards to exscuse/explain away why it was they didn't apprehend the White guy on Jackson. Why do I think the story is crap? Well let's assume then that the BLack Male description was broadcast by mistake and give them the benefit of the doubt, then we have this scenario....

Armond P: "It was at that point that I retook the suspects description and that's when I was told it was a White guy. I couldn't get to my radio fast enough to let everyone else know."

Then A.P walks down Cherry, turns right and descends the Jackson hill and arrives at Maple where he see's a 'man walking his dog'. He then turns and ascends the hill and it's around this time, while he's somewhere on Jackson or just turning onto Cherry, that Don and Eric pull up to Maple. Keep in mind now mind that Armond has stated he broadcast the update in description a good 5 to 10 minutes ago before he even left the scene itself. Fouke now see's the white male on Jackson. See, even if the story of the BMA was true, that still couldn't account for why Don did not stop the white guy because A.P claims to have broadcast the amended description several minutes before Don rolls up on the white guy.

And the way it's worded in Diana's interview seems to suggest that Fouke made it up when she says...

"She was told, in all confidence, that Fouke made the final decision to say they only drove by a WMA and he was not stopped because they were looking for a BMA."

"Diana Zelms statement is hearsay." Oh dear, now we are clutching at straws Mr Smith No in all seriousness I will acknowledge that that statement above is 3rd hand an therefor by the letter of the law designated as 'Hearsay'. But wouldn't you think that Diana herself would have heard this claim circulating about what she is supposed to have said? Surely if it were vicious lies shed be on the record to correct these lying people in their deceptive story telling about her late husband having told her something?

In as much as Fouke's description of the man they drove by or talked to the night of the Stine murder, is an exception to the live witnesses of the Zodiac Killer, it should be discounted. From the lack of blood on the man, to the grey hair. What ties this man to the Zodiac Killer, besides he was walking on a street of San Francisco?

onewhoknows wrote:In as much as Fouke's description of the man they drove by or talked to the night of the Stine murder, is an exception to the live witnesses of the Zodiac Killer, it should be discounted. From the lack of blood on the man, to the grey hair. What ties this man to the Zodiac Killer, besides he was walking on a street of San Francisco?

How is this man seen by Fouke an exception to the witnesses who survived? The grey hair/age you mean? If that guy Don spoke with was Zodiac, then Don was the only person to ever see Z up close, unmasked and under street lights. The witnesses and dispatcher said he 'sounded young' because, obviously, they never saw his face. Mike Mageau said he was a young guy but claims to have only seen the shooters silhouette in the dark and from a side on profile view (not from the front staring face to face) after he was shot several times. Don is the only man to see Zodiac if in fact it were him on the street that night, up close and personal under street lighting conditions.

The lack of blood on his trousers could be down to something as simple as 'Zodiac wore two pairs of trousers that night'. That's what I would do if I were going to do what he did and wanted to hide my bloodied clothes on the street. After all, He knew he was going to murder a cab driver and have to walk at least some distance on the street so the pair underneath the blood stained trousers would remain clean and not soaked in blood when the top pair would be and he simply switched them in one of the many numerous dark alcoves, alleyways or even front garden of a house. Before anyone dismisses that as 'too elaborate' I would ask them to remember who we are dealing with here. This is the same man who claims to use 2 coats of airplane cement on his finger tips as it "quite un-noticeable and very effective." The rest of us would probably settle for the slightly more mundane and boring, yet just as effective, pair of gloves!

Fascinating discussion everyone but can I just ask you all to be mindful not to drift too far off the topic of this thread. It's becoming a discussion about the events on the night of the Stine murder and there's already other threads for that.

Thank you.

GREYING HAIR

Thank you Judith lol.

Yes, back to the question of Zodiac's hair! Rite, ummmmm.... So, did Zodiac have a dandruff problem? If so, can we check each Mall's CCTV footage looking for anyone White Male buying excessive amounts of 'Head & Shoulders - Anti Dandruff' shampoo? "There he is! That one there! The one at the check-out with thirty seven bottles of anti-dandruff!"

Anyway, back to the serious points regarding his hair. If Don and Eric did see Z and if they spoke to him as Eric's Widow claims Eric described it "Face to Face" then Zodiac must have confidence that he wont be recognised if he's seen by the same two Officers from Jackson St that night.

That bit never made a whole lot of sense to me either. If i'm a notorious and wanted serial killer who, should I make the slightest error in judgement, will result in a rendezvous with the Gas Chamber in San Quentin, I wouldn't want to be all eager to let everyones, including the police who saw me themselves, that 'I was the man they stopped to speak with on the street that night.' All your doing is confirming that you are the offender that as spotted and/or possibly spoken with that night and now two SFPD Officers know what you look like unless you have one hell of a disguise! A wig would be noticeable under the street lights more than likely if he'd been seen at fairly close range and may then end up having the wig have the reverse intended effect and you draw suspicion to yourself. You know, if Fouke & Zelms were slowly accelerating up Jackson St hill, slowed down and were greeted by this man coming toward their car....

But but but, where's my reply? Before we move on (back to?) the hair? Deleted? It was just before your post, Trav. Has it gone?

I seem to recall telling naughty WC that I'm not "clutching at straws" saying that the Diana statement is hearsay. It's hearsay.
Not only is it hearsay, but it's from an unnamed party, and includes a reference (in confidence - ha ha!) from ANOTHER third party. Doh!
As for "wouldn't you think that Diana herself would have heard this claim circulating about what she is supposed to have said?" Uh no. I suspect she doesn't sign on to Zodiac web sites looking for things with which she disagrees. You think it makes it true 'cos she's not signed on here yet? Double Doh!

Back to the hair.
No, he didn't wear a skin wig (that's silly).
How's this hair thing supposed to have gone? Has anyone listed the descriptions (again - as was done on the old site) yet?
At LHR - hair, unknown.

At BRS - Mike (jeez) described the attackers hair as "brown" (it says here) http://www.zodiackiller.com/FerrinMageau.html
At BRS - MIke (jeez) described the attackers hair as "short curly hair, light brown almost blond" (it says here) http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm

At Berryessa, Bryan said that under the hood, where he could see through the eye-holes, (jeez), "It looked kinda greasy" (it says here)
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm
It also says "brown" there - but only, perhaps, because Graysmith says "dark brown", on page 67. Police reports, anyone? Will that help? Maybe not.
The "other guy" scoping the girls out at the lake - dark brown or black hair.

Presidio - well, it's on this thread - pick a card. The kids description? Foukes? Widows peak? Brownish? Red-ish, with some grey?

So.
"Short curly hair, light brown almost blond, kinda greasy, brown, dark brown (or black), widows peak, crew cut, red-ish with some gray."
How. Very. Odd.

smithy wrote:But but but, where's my reply? Before we move on (back to?) the hair? Deleted? It was just before your post, Trav. Has it gone?

Bottom of page 5 Smithy? is that the one?