Zodiackillersite.com

[quote][/quote]by smithy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Ah! A couple of things to reply to.



1) Who said Zodiac chased her? Not me - I said she ran away from him, quite possibly toward an approaching car. It's actually interesting that he DIDN'T chase her, no? He must have had a clear view and some confidence in his accuracy, eh? (Which wasn't fabulous, but neither was it poor. IMO).
2) Yes, she left "a trail in blood", but that's some "momentum". Nope, she was a young woman being shot with a relatively small-calibre gun who was trying to get away and enjoying some adrenaline-fuelled assistance, trying to do so, I suspect. Having seen her boyfriend shot in the head seconds earlier may have helped. Her assailant he had to keep shooting her, I think, (the bastard), since she wasn't stopping.
3) We have no idea how many minutes after the murder Stella Borges saw the murders. If the assailant was on foot, then it could indeed have been a matter of seconds. That's the point of the "he wasn't driving a car" perspective. He ducked back behind the Rambler - eh voila.
4) Yes, one of the roads he may have used, possibly. But not if he wasn't driving. Maybe he was driving. But that invisible car's a clew, I think. * shrug *

I've not read a report which states someone was hiding in the bushes, only the heel-print one, and since there's no way to date that, it's unhelpful.
The "lying-in-wait" idea's possible. But then, there are many explanations we might fit around LHR, are there not?


1. I wans't referring to you when posting Smithy...someone else back there spoke about the possibility of Zodiac running after her...I just responded as to why that wasn't the case.

2. Again someone was wondering about the distance the shots were fired from and the distance she was found from the car. My point was that (due to the trail of blood) Z began firing when she was much closer to where she was found....Momentum...adrenaline! I prefer your explanation.

3. No we do not know how many minutes after the murder Stella Borges came upon the bodies. However the car Owen claimed was there was not when she arrived. The point I was responding to was Welsh chappie's who was wondering about the road being locked down at both sides. If the driver of that car was Zodiac , then he was gone before she arrived ( regardless of how many minutes later Stella arrived) and before the police could have been informed, so the point was moot.

4. If he was driving, he could have headed east and turned on Reservoir road or (as the exit to the east was only two miles away) could have been far enough ahead of Borges to not be seen. If he wasn't driving, he wasn't driving! It's possible but I do not think there's a lack of evidence elsewhere to suggest he must not have been. That does not imply that I dismiss the idea, I'd just need to be convinced

Wier - did I sound like I thought you were picking on me? That number 1? You could pick on me if you liked, I'm here to be picked on and I don't mind it.
Do you like the idea she was "shot when backlit", btw? I'm quite fond of the idea. (If that doesn't sound too weird, please excuse me if it does.)
I can figure no other way her assailant could have reliably shot her so many times from that distance in the dark. (Electric gunsight... pshaw!)

Tahoe27 wrote:

Welsh Chappie wrote: 3. Initial reports stated that police believed that the shooter had been hid in the bushes and undergroath behind the gate, waiting for a couple to pull into the well known lovers lane spot.

Where did you see these reports?

We know a print was found off the road, but if it was too cold for any cars to leave tire tracks, I think the same might be said for a shoe print found.

I too think Zodiac could have very well been on foot. I don't think he would have been parked on the other side of David's Rambler, then, driven around both bodies with no tire tracks in blood...

The first reports of the incident published by the press were not only that a footprint had been found sunken into the mud behind the gate and bushes where the couple were shot that night, but initial reports also stated that 'A high calibre weapon was used to fire into or at the vehicle initially and that a 'High calibre shell casing' has been found. What happened to this initial story in order for it to change so drastically I do not know. Ok I would accept that someone possibly mis-identified the shell as a rifle casing, when it was not (I'd have to push myself to believe that, considering we are dealing with experienced homicide detectives, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt as it was dark that night). That doesn't explain why the fresh footprint discovered in the area behind the gate and David's vehicle seem's to have been lost and forgotten over time.

And as for an earlier comment of "Lake Herman isn't that long a road, Zodiac could have gotten off in just 5 miles." Well, I respect your opinion and comment, but when you've just murdered two innocent teenagers in the middle of nowhere, 5 miles is a heck of a long way to travel without being able to get off the road and escape should you see flashing red & blue lights in the distance....you'd be a sitting duck with nowhere to go other than foreward toward the oncoming army of police. After Shooting Stine in Presidio Heights, Zodiac knew exactly what his escape route was and gave himself a good chance to escape capture by turning into Julius Kahn Playground and the vast area of the Presidio (I believe Z's intention was to murder Paul at Washington & Maple as the location in Paul book suggested, and had that been the case, Zodiac would simply have to walk a few seconds down Maple and into the darkness of J K Playground. As it happens, he had to go 1 extra bloack (probably due to there being activity/people in and around Washington & Maple).

The original Newspaper report on the Jensen and Faraday murders I found on Google Archive several weeks ago and I think, if memory serves me correctly, I posted it at the old site. I will look for the article on Google Archive when I get 5 mins later, but if ayone wants to check the old site i'm almost sure I posted about it there and with the article.

by smithy » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:37 pm

Wier - did I sound like I thought you were picking on me? That number 1? You could pick on me if you liked, I'm here to be picked on and I don't mind it.
Do you like the idea she was "shot when backlit", btw? I'm quite fond of the idea. (If that doesn't sound too weird, please excuse me if it does.)
I can figure no other way her assailant could have reliably shot her so many times from that distance in the dark. (Electric gunsight... pshaw!)

"You had wrote in response to my post:- "Who said Zodiac chased her. Not me". That did sound like you thought I was picking on you. I wasn't and wouldn't like you to think that I was, so I explained my position.

I'm assuming when you say " shot when backlit" that you mean, Zodiac did what he said and shot Betty using his gunsight. I can only go on my own experiments.
I got a small pencil flashlight and aimed it at the Wall, there is indeed a small dark area in the centre, but only at close range. That disappears quickly the further distance you move from the target area. So unless Z had some stronger type of light, or Betty was really close, I would have to say no. At distance you would have to have one of those laser ones I think..not available then. That said, I think he probably did have such a light. Again though I still believe she was much closer when hit by most of those shots. So "distance in the dark" is relative.

Welsh Chappie wrote:

Tahoe27 wrote:

Welsh Chappie wrote: 3. Initial reports stated that police believed that the shooter had been hid in the bushes and undergroath behind the gate, waiting for a couple to pull into the well known lovers lane spot.

Where did you see these reports?

We know a print was found off the road, but if it was too cold for any cars to leave tire tracks, I think the same might be said for a shoe print found.

I too think Zodiac could have very well been on foot. I don't think he would have been parked on the other side of David's Rambler, then, driven around both bodies with no tire tracks in blood...

The first reports of the incident published by the press were not only that a footprint had been found sunken into the mud behind the gate and bushes where the couple were shot that night, but initial reports also stated that 'A high calibre weapon was used to fire into or at the vehicle initially and that a 'High calibre shell casing' has been found. What happened to this initial story in order for it to change so drastically I do not know. Ok I would accept that someone possibly mis-identified the shell as a rifle casing, when it was not (I'd have to push myself to believe that, considering we are dealing with experienced homicide detectives, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt as it was dark that night). That doesn't explain why the fresh footprint discovered in the area behind the gate and David's vehicle seem's to have been lost and forgotten over time.

And as for an earlier comment of "Lake Herman isn't that long a road, Zodiac could have gotten off in just 5 miles." Well, I respect your opinion and comment, but when you've just murdered two innocent teenagers in the middle of nowhere, 5 miles is a heck of a long way to travel without being able to get off the road and escape should you see flashing red & blue lights in the distance....you'd be a sitting duck with nowhere to go other than foreward toward the oncoming army of police. After Shooting Stine in Presidio Heights, Zodiac knew exactly what his escape route was and gave himself a good chance to escape capture by turning into Julius Kahn Playground and the vast area of the Presidio (I believe Z's intention was to murder Paul at Washington & Maple as the location in Paul book suggested, and had that been the case, Zodiac would simply have to walk a few seconds down Maple and into the darkness of J K Playground. As it happens, he had to go 1 extra bloack (probably due to there being activity/people in and around Washington & Maple).

The original Newspaper report on the Jensen and Faraday murders I found on Google Archive several weeks ago and I think, if memory serves me correctly, I posted it at the old site. I will look for the article on Google Archive when I get 5 mins later, but if ayone wants to check the old site i'm almost sure I posted about it there and with the article.

--For the record...that wasn't me mentioned LHR not being long.

As for reports of LE thinking the guy was hiding behind the fence....I thought you meant PD reports. Newspapers tend to put a different spin on things. As in "fresh". If the ground was frozen, it wasn't fresh. And was the person one-legged? lol

Wier wrote:I'm assuming when you say " shot when backlit" that you mean, Zodiac did what he said and shot Betty using his gunsight. I can only go on my own experiments....

No, I meant she was running toward a car's headlights when shot by the one-legged man.

Personally (did I not mention?) I think the idea of shooting a .22 pistol at a running target over 20+ feet using a torch as some sort of funky night-sight is a load of crap. Always have.

Found the article which mentions the rifle, the foorprint in the bushes behind the gate and that police believe the shooter was hid in the bushes waiting to ambush his victims. Heres the link....

http://www.sfgate.com/gate/graphics/200 ... 1_1968.pdf

Let's go back to Patinsky's post just one up from AJ's, which is on page 1...............

Patinsky mentions Ms Ferrin........doesn't he mean Ms Jensen?

It appears as some folks have been trying to reconstruct the scene....such as,
was the killer on foot? Did he approach the kids with the same tactics as were used
at LB?

No one will ever know..........there are no witnesses who survived. LB would have been a mystery is Bryan didn't make it - fortunately, he did.

We can try and rationalize and speculate all we want, but the details will never be known
as there was no one else around to hear or see the shootings, and both victims were killed.

trainmaster wrote:Let's go back to Patinsky's post just one up from AJ's, which is on page 1...............

Patinsky mentions Ms Ferrin........doesn't he mean Ms Jensen?

It appears as some folks have been trying to reconstruct the scene....such as,
was the killer on foot? Did he approach the kids with the same tactics as were used
at LB?

No one will ever know..........there are no witnesses who survived. LB would have been a mystery is Bryan didn't make it - fortunately, he did.

We can try and rationalize and speculate all we want, but the details will never be known
as there was no one else around to hear or see the shootings, and both victims were killed.

Your sentence i've outlined as it obviously is directed at me. In regards to LHR and Zodiac on foot vs Zodiac in vehicle...

I wasn't trying to 'reconstruct the scene', but suggesting that because of the known facts and evidence discovered at the scene, Zodiac may well have been on foot. For example, the shot fired from, and into, the rear of the vehicle. The fresh foot imprint found in the bushes behind the gate where David & Betty were parked, possibly suggesting the attacker lay in wait concealed from view. And then finally, the fact that police responded quickly to the scene, and reported passing no vehicle's after they turned onto Lake Herman Rd.

So, I would argue that based on the above facts alone, the theory of Zodiac on foot should be relevant and discussed because if he were on foot, then that would probably suggest that he lives/lived in the immediate area.

trainmaster wrote:We can try and rationalize and speculate all we want, but the details will never be known
as there was no one else around to hear or see the shootings, and both victims were killed.

Hiya TM, where've you been?
You're right about this, of course. But then if we weren't going to speculate, we may as well all log off!
Personally I enjoy the wilder areas of speculation. I've got a space aliens theory which I'm going to launch soon.

WC - I happen to agree with you, that the "on foot" theory makes some sense.
What about the "Betty Lou clearly visible as she ran toward the headlights of an approaching (Mrs Jensen's?) car" theory.
Any takers?