Crime Scene!

[Tahoe27]

How is it though it was too frozen for tire tracks, yet there was a fresh footprint?

[Welsh Chappie]

I don't know. Maybe the guy had been stood/crouched there for some time and as he was crouched put more weight on one leg than the other? I know seens unlikely. But another question is, why would anyone's print be there in that area at all?

[smithy]

Pah, the scuffle thing was a theory? I've got 400 theories.
I'd like to know who David was supposed to have had an argument about drug-pushing with, at the Pancake place. I thought it was "that" scuffle.
Anyway:

The article states "Among the few clues was a deep heel print in the Earth. The print was in the brush grow area in rear of the fence bringing the pump house supply water to Benicia."

Which article matey? And suddenly no mention of a gate? The gate has gone? You're teasing me, right?

Tahoe - yes, it was supposedly 22 degrees, which isn't warm, is it. Yet the passenger window was down, as if for a chat.
(I think! I better go read the reports!)

[Tahoe27]

Tahoe - yes, it was supposedly 22 degrees, which isn't warm, is it. Yet the passenger window was down, as if for a chat.
(I think! I better go read the reports!)

They could have rolled the window down to respond to the guy...maybe they knew him. I have read Betty Lou smoked...so could have been for that reason too. Yes, lots of theories.

I think the print is mentioned in police reports. Why one one print? Weird.

[Welsh Chappie]

Pah, the scuffle thing was a theory? I've got 400 theories.
I'd like to know who David was supposed to have had an argument about drug-pushing with, at the Pancake place. I thought it was "that" scuffle.
Anyway:

The article states "Among the few clues was a deep heel print in the Earth. The print was in the brush grow area in rear of the fence bringing the pump house supply water to Benicia."

Which article matey? And suddenly no mention of a gate? The gate has gone? You're teasing me, right?

Tahoe - yes, it was supposedly 22 degrees, which isn't warm, is it. Yet the passenger window was down, as if for a chat.
(I think! I better go read the reports!)

Smithy you seem to think that anyone who has a theory is just pulling it out of thin air lol. The theory was based on David Faraday having a bruise/mark on his face when found. I'm not asking you to agree with that theory Smithy. If you would like every discussion on this board to be on the facts alone, then that would just see us repeat the same things over and over. This is a discussion forum to discuss the facts aswell as theories. Now I agree, a theory dreamed up from nowhere is not one that is worth considering, but when people, as I do, give theories based on some evidence or reason to support it, then I think that is plausable. As i've said before, because this case is unsolved and perpetrator unknown, that's what people will do, speculate, theorise and assume and as long as they can show their speculation, theory or assumption is based on something in the facts of the case, I personally, see nothing wrong with it.

[Wier]

Smithy wrote:-

Wier, can you expand on "they spent so much time parked alongside each other and Z decided he wanted them out of the car" please?

Again all of this is dependent on Owen's testimony....There is a long "straight" in the road as you approach the Pump station from Vallejo (about a quarter of a mile) Owen reports nothing ahead of him, no rear lights nor any car pulling into the parking area ahead of him. So we can assume that Z was already there and parked up before Owen turned that corner at the bottom of the road. So at a minumum Z is there, say 30-40 seconds ( time taken for Owen to drive from the corner to the Pump station). Owen also claims, that just before that (in the vacinity of Borges ranch) he passed a car coming from the other direction.
That means that car passed the pump station too a minute or two before that again. We can't say that Z was there then but it's all very tight and it's more likely he was. Ok a couple of minutes isn't a long period of time but I believe it is in the context.

If I was in David's shoes I'd be inclined to move if a car came in and parked so close, he didn't! From Z's perspective he's there for a period of time and isn't making his move. Then one or two cars pass and having decided to act, goes to the trouble of prolonging the event, by forcing them out of the car, that took more time. It just seems to me he had some need to want to get them out of the car as opposed to just killing them.
It's the first murder and I just wonder if it wasn't sparked by something in particular. Just thoughts!

[Welsh Chappie]

Smithy wrote:-

Wier, can you expand on "they spent so much time parked alongside each other and Z decided he wanted them out of the car" please?

Again all of this is dependent on Owen's testimony....There is a long "straight" in the road as you approach the Pump station from Vallejo (about a quarter of a mile) Owen reports nothing ahead of him, no rear lights nor any car pulling into the parking area ahead of him. So we can assume that Z was already there and parked up before Owen turned that corner at the bottom of the road. So at a minumum Z is there, say 30-40 seconds ( time taken for Owen to drive from the corner to the Pump station). Owen also claims, that just before that (in the vacinity of Borges ranch) he passed a car coming from the other direction.
That means that car passed the pump station too a minute or two before that again. We can't say that Z was there then but it's all very tight and it's more likely he was. Ok a couple of minutes isn't a long period of time but I believe it is in the context.

If I was in David's shoes I'd be inclined to move if a car came in and parked so close, he didn't! From Z's perspective he's there for a period of time and isn't making his move. Then one or two cars pass and having decided to act, goes to the trouble of prolonging the event, by forcing them out of the car, that took more time. It just seems to me he had some need to want to get them out of the car as opposed to just killing them. It's the first murder and I just wonder if it wasn't sparked by something in particular. Just thoughts!

Well, what if Zodiac were on foot, and he intended to abduct Betty Lou in David's own vehicle? He orders David out and around to his side on the passenger side of the vehicle. He shoots David in the head and runs around to the drivers side and get's in. As he gets in, Betty jumps out and attempts to run but Zodiac quickly scoots across the seats and exits after her and opens fire. If this wasn't the case, then...

Zodiac shoots David Faraday right outside her passenger door, and Betty, having the option to scoot across the seats and exit on the drivers side, appears to decide to exit and run right where Zodiac is standing. Wouldn't it be more likely that she'd only exit the vehicle there if Zodiac was the other side of the vehicle?

As you say, the only one witness to claim to see two vehicles parked there is Owens, and his statement's change from the second vehicle being 3-4 ft apart, to 10 ft apart. Also, Owens says that when passing the two vehicles he could see, and recalls, the model (Station Waggon), year (1955-56) and color (neutral color), but stated he could not give any details such as make, model or color of other vehicle. (He was coming from the direction of Vallejo, which means his view wouldn't have been obstructed by the rambler as it would be if coming from Benicia.)
Another claim he makes that I find odd, is 'He (Owens) did not see anyone in the cars or around them'. Where were they? This would suggest, if true, that Zodiac either had them both outside the vehicle and ducked down beside the rambler (which may still have allowed the driver to have seen them if they were not perfectly positioned), or, they were in their vehicle and Zodiac ordered them to duck down while he crouched beside the car. Are these scenario's likely? Would they miss their chance to wave frantically for help? Would they miss the chance of it possible being a cop, or that an average citizen would stop? I don't know.

[Wier]

WC,

Scenario 1......Would the drivers door be locked in those circumstances?
Scenario 2......same problem?

All doors were locked bar the passenger door. I think the bullet holes in the car, the position of the bodies, the trail of blood, the placings of the shell casings (except that one from 20ft away) all point to the most accepted theory. He forced them out of the car, on the one side so he could control them. There may have been so ruse, he got david to stand by the back wheel facing the car, as he went to shoot him Betty ran, she didn't get three paces before he turned and hit her for the first time.

I'm slightly confused by the last part....if Z was on foot, you have to account for Owens testimony. Owen as Z is another matter.
I believe though that the seat/seats in the rambler were tilted back ( I stand to be corrected on that score) if true, it explains why Owens didn't see them and Z ducking down is no biggie. Then again assuming Owens is an innocent passerby, I'm not sure what I'd expect him to notice one way or another. For him in that scenario it's a nothing event at the time.

[smithy]

Smithy you seem to think that anyone who has a theory is just pulling it out of thin air.... etc. etc.

I do huh?

Well then I'll have to go on record, saying that I think theories are just excellent, and I personally have some really wacky ones.

It's true that I do think implying that a theory is based on a fact or two when it's based on second-hand opinion, like some web site somewhere some guy said he thought David Faraday had been in a fight, perhaps, yes I think that's a bit of a waste of time, but hey, there's time. I just like to know, that's all.

Can you share the source of that article about the footprint please? I've been trying to find the police report that mentions it - the print - and can't.
If you don't have it or whatever, that's fine too. I'm not the Zodiac Fact Police. OK?

[smithy]

Smithy wrote:-

Wier, can you expand on "they spent so much time parked alongside each other and Z decided he wanted them out of the car" please?

Again all of this is dependent on Owen's testimony....There is a long "straight" in the road as you approach the Pump station from Vallejo (about a quarter of a mile) Owen reports nothing ahead of him, no rear lights nor any car pulling into the parking area ahead of him. So we can assume that Z was already there and parked up before Owen turned that corner at the bottom of the road. So at a minumum Z is there, say 30-40 seconds ( time taken for Owen to drive from the corner to the Pump station). Owen also claims, that just before that (in the vacinity of Borges ranch) he passed a car coming from the other direction.
That means that car passed the pump station too a minute or two before that again. We can't say that Z was there then but it's all very tight and it's more likely he was. Ok a couple of minutes isn't a long period of time but I believe it is in the context.

If I was in David's shoes I'd be inclined to move if a car came in and parked so close, he didn't! From Z's perspective he's there for a period of time and isn't making his move. Then one or two cars pass and having decided to act, goes to the trouble of prolonging the event, by forcing them out of the car, that took more time. It just seems to me he had some need to want to get them out of the car as opposed to just killing them.
It's the first murder and I just wonder if it wasn't sparked by something in particular. Just thoughts!

Good thoughts. I'll chew them over for a bit - and thanks for sharing.