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AMENDED: James Owen in his statement on the 24th December 1968 stated "just before he approached the scene a vehicle passed him in the opposite direction towards Vallejo. This occurred near the Borges Ranch". It has been widely calculated that he passed the turnout at 11.14 pm. The police report has the Borges Ranch 2.7 miles from the turnout, but it is actually 1.5 miles and therefore it took Stella Borges 3 minutes to reach the Lake Herman Road turnout, therefore James Owen, on his way to Humble Oil in Benicia, must have passed the Borges Ranch at approximately 11.11 pm. This is when he passed this unknown car heading to Vallejo ie: 11.11 pm. The latest point this car could have entered Lake Herman Road was on Old Lake Herman Road, which is 1 minute or 0.6 miles journey time to the turnout and a further 1.5 miles or 3 minutes to the Borges Ranch. That is a total of 4 minutes it had been on Lake Herman Road when James Owen spotted it. So if it had joined Lake Herman Road at Old Lake Herman Road, it did this at 11.07 pm.
The following witnesses were present at the Marshall Ranch on 12.20.68, which is located about 30 seconds journey time past the Lake Herman Road turnout en route to Vallejo.
Frank Gasser, Robert Connelly and the Your's never reported passing this vehicle on their way to Benicia, after leaving the Marshall Ranch. The only way they could avoid passing this car (if James Owen passed the turnout at 11.14 pm), is if Gasser, Connelly and the Your's had left the Marshall Ranch at approx 11.05 pm at the earliest, to avoid passing this vehicle as it entered Lake Herman Road at 11.07 pm. This vehicle would have reached the Marshall Ranch approx 1 minute 30 seconds after entering Lake Herman Road, putting it passing the Marshall Ranch at 11.08 pm and 30 seconds. So conversely Gasser, Connelly and the Your's would have had to have left after approx 11.09 pm to avoid passing it on the road. Therefore they all had to leave the Marshall Ranch at 11.05 pm or earlier or after 11.09 pm. However I do not recollect any other eyewitnesses other than James Owen mentioning this vehicle and nobody recollects this mystery vehicle driving by the entrance to the Marshall Ranch at just past 11.08 pm, meaning there was nobody present at the Marshall Ranch at this time or they failed to notice it. If this is correct Frank Gasser, Robert Connelly and the Your's must have left the Marshall Ranch at 11.05 pm or earlier, to avoid ever seeing or hearing this unknown vehicle.
The raccoon hunters Robert Connelly and Frank Gasser drove out in their red Ford pick up to Marshall Ranch, located just beyond gate #10 of the Lake Herman pumping station. The pair spent most of the evening near the pump house, approximately 25 feet into the ranch land. The Your's drove to the Marshall Ranch gate, before turning around and heading back to Benicia. Neither party ever mentioned this vehicle.
We know from Officer Daniel Pitta's police report that Stella Borges, who discovered the victims in the turnout, flagged him down about 11.25 pm in Benicia, so calculated the five minute journey back to the crime scene, meant she must have passed the turnout at 11.20 pm. Since James Owen claimed in his statement he saw two cars side by side in the turnout and no bodies, common sense tells us he must have passed the turnout slightly earlier or at the very least several minutes earlier to allow enough time for the Zodiac to have committed the double murder and escaped before the arrival of Stella Borges. This window of opportunity was calculated at six minutes or less. More importantly it would rule out the mystery car and driver as our killer, or would it.
On the morning of December 21st 1968, less than ten hours after the murders James Owen gave a statement, indicating that he saw two cars alongside each other in the gravel turnout 10 feet apart, yet despite the gravity of such a major event "likely with chalk outlines on the ground, he failed to mention hearing any shots 9 hours before, when he passed the scene, yet 3 days later on the 24th, Owen suddenly mentions that he heard a shot after he passed the scene, about a quarter mile up the road. His second statement also brought the cars into closer proximity, now only 3-4 feet apart.
Peggy Your stated "As they were driving west on Lake Herman Road at the turn off to the Benicia Water Pumping Station, she observed a Rambler station wagon parked with front end heading east, there were two Caucasians in the front seat, male and female, when the lights from the car came upon the station wagon, the male sat up in the seat. Mrs Your said it was a cold night and she noticed no frost on the station wagon". A very detailed description. She also stated " the girl was resting her head against his shoulder. When the lights of the car flashed on the Rambler, the subject in the car put his hands on the wheel". However despite James Owen describing the murder victims car as a "1955 or 1956 station wagon, boxy type, neutral color", he could not describe the other car at all, not even the color, even though he purported it was only 3-4 feet away in his second statement. What if these were not the only things James Owen failed to notice. He furthermore told the police "He definitely saw two cars, a station wagon and another vehicle". But how definite was he. For all we know he may well have already passed the Zodiac Killer by the Borges Ranch, heading towards Vallejo.
The unknown driver of this car never came forward as a material witness to the crime, one has to ask why.

imo the timeline and memories of witnesses at lhr has always had too much faith put into it. who did you pass on the way to work this morning? there's no way anyone would reliably remember something like that after the fact. i give le a lot of credit for going back and trying to make a timeline using the offsets of various clocks, but at the end of the day you're still relying on someone saying "i left for work at x:xx". even if you know their clock at home is five minutes fast, you still don't know whether they literally left at the moment they recall leaving, simply because no one remembers stuff like that.

i bring this up because i think there was more time at lhr then has been accounted. i think there is enough variance in the many timelines of that night to allow for more than three or four minutes.

masootz wrote:imo the timeline and memories of witnesses at lhr has always had too much faith put into it. who did you pass on the way to work this morning? there's no way anyone would reliably remember something like that after the fact.

Totally agree with Masootz.

When I think of the LHR witnesses, I often try to recall a car I have passed on a journey in the last 24 hours on a country lane or quiet road, parked or otherwise. Or even if I passed a car at all on really quiet lane.

I never can really recall one enough to identify even the colour, let alone the make and model or describe the occupants. And LHR was on a dark December night, too.

And yeah, the times of the hunters' and the Your's comings and goings could easily be several minutes earlier than estimated.

Officer Daniel Pitta I would rely on however who we based his contact with Stella Borges to give us her timeline of passing the scene at 11.20 pm and therefore James Owen's slightly earlier. The question still remains, why didn't the other eyewitnesses recall this car. They remember each other, along with Wesher, and details of the young couple in great detail but this car must have passed by, if they all claim to be at the Marshall Ranch. One of the hunters even recollected looking at his watch. Therefore if they all left the Marshall Ranch before 11.03 pm, the timelines are way off.
Furthermore this car may have been the killer heading to Vallejo. This driver never became a material witness or volunteered himself and puts into further question James Owen's claim to have seen two cars only 3-4 feet apart and couldn't describe the second vehicle at all. What he then claims to have seen in the turnout as he passed becomes even more dubious.

UKSpycatcher wrote:...We know the Borges Ranch is 2.7 miles from the turnout and it took Stella Borges 4-5 minutes to reach the Lake Herman Road turnout, therefore James Owen, on his way to Humble Oil in Benicia, must have passed the Borges Ranch at approximately 11.10 pm.

Actually, The Borgess Ranch was not 2.7 miles away. It was only 1.5 miles away.

This is one of the things that has bothered my about the police report since the officers measured the distance twice. For the life of me, I cannot figure out the location of which they marked the distance.

So, it would seem, Stella's timeline would be affected.


POST #63 HERE: http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/1 ... SwZx9zF-So

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Thanks Tahoe27. So the Marshall Ranch is I have calculated just past the turnout 20-30 secs on the right side.

Yes. I believe you are correct. That would be the Marshall Ranch.

The problem here is that we don't have anything which can be positively trusted other than the times recorded by the police – the first of which being when they were alerted by Stella Borges. Everything prior to this – is a matter of recollection and approximation. And the minutest variance may make a world of difference.

The way I see it, Z struck in a window which could be either incredibly narrow – or quite comfortably large, given the circumstances.

Basing anything on what the Yours or Owen or anyone else have to say about approximately when they did what – is a fool's game. If their accounts are off with a minute or two (and they probably are, and there are multiple witnesses involved here, not just one), that's all it takes to open for a radically different chain of events.

In short, we don't actually have a time frame. Just a very wide and vague one. For some purposes the latter is good enough – for other purposes it is perfectly useless.

for anyone who has been to the scene, can you give an estimate of what kind of window of time you'd have to see cars coming from either direction (keep in mind we're talking seeing headlights since this happened at night)? what i'm getting at is did zodiac scope out this location because you'd see headlights a minute before a car comes around the curve, or was he relying on random luck? if it was a strategically sound location from the standpoint of having a chance to duck and cover if a car is coming, then it might explain some of the weirdness surrounding the timeline.

masootz wrote:for anyone who has been to the scene, can you give an estimate of what kind of window of time you'd have to see cars coming from either direction (keep in mind we're talking seeing headlights since this happened at night)? what i'm getting at is did zodiac scope out this location because you'd see headlights a minute before a car comes around the curve, or was he relying on random luck? if it was a strategically sound location from the standpoint of having a chance to duck and cover if a car is coming, then it might explain some of the weirdness surrounding the timeline.

With headlights, you'd have pretty good notice someone was coming--in either direction, but imo, you'd want to be ready to high-tail it out of there easily in either direction...by backing in.

Really, what happened to David and Betty Lou could have happened in under a minute.