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You know, I might could see the turnout as a hangout/party spot but I dont think i have ever accepted that this location was a lover's lane. Its hard to say for certain because i use to think that the Zodiac killed or was after couples. I don't believe that any more. I think he was only after the females.

As far as. James Owen, I think he and Stella Medeiros, are the best witnesses in terms of narrowing down when the crime occurred. I buy into his seeing another car at the scene and do believe he stopped that morning because of what he heard from coworkers. I do have strong issues with him not reporting that he heard a gun shot when he stopped that morning. I would think that, had he heard a shot, he might not have given much thought to it at the time of passing because of the likelihood of hunters in the area. However, the second his coworkers started talking about what they saw, he should have been like "oh damn. That shot I heard must have been the attacker" and then thought about that all night. It should have been fresh on his mind the next morning but it wasn't. Not believing that Owen was a possible Zodiac, I suspect Owen, was trying to make himself look more important as a witness simply to impress those he worked around.

Soze

Norse wrote:
To pursue the on-foot angle further: Is it conceivable at all that Z could have been on foot without us ending up with having to label a certain witness either a liar or a...Zodiac?

I'm thinking about the times here - how accurate are these? Could it be that the car which was observed by said witness, and which seemingly had to belong to Z, did in fact belong to someone else who just happened to swing by briefly - and who for some reason never came forward afterwards? Clearly a stretch - but is it entirely out of the question?

As much as I dislike saying it, I do think its conceivable that the Zodiac, could have been on foot. But there are a limited number of places he could have lived or parked.

The accuracy of times is why I said earlier that James Owen and Stella Medeiros are the best witnesses. We know how far each lived, how off their clocks were and can judge fairly accurately how long it would have taken them to go from A to B. The only question is each assement of the time they left. I think, in addition to Owens clock being 6 minutes off, he also rounded his time. I cant tell you the number of times I will look at a clock and say "oh. Its 10:00" when its really 10 till. I think Owen left at approximately 10:53 pm and said 11:00 due to his rounding. This would mean, according to the police giving a 6 minute difference between their time and his, that he actually left at 10:47 pm intending to be at work at approximately 11:15 pm. Approximayely 15 minutes early for work.

The same can be said about Stella Madeiros. She claims to arrive at home at approximately 10:50, talks with her mother on phone until 11:10, when she hangs up to go pick up her son. In this 20 minute conversation she never takes her coat off. Perhaps it was cold in her home. Perhaps they needed to build a fire. Perhaps the conversation never took as long as 20 minutes. In this case she might have actually arrived later or left earlier than she stated. I actually think she she arrived later than she stated. I think a possibility exists that she is the person Owen passes on the road to work.

Soze

i think it's likely that all involved lhr witnesses have times that aren't perfect. you're talking about people trying to remember a small detail from a day (or more) earlier that they had no idea they'd have to remember. i think what we're left with is a few important pieces of information:

1) z had at LEAST six minutes with no witnesses, however if the times are off there could have been a larger window. additionally some of the witness statements, such as james owen stating he saw two cars, could indicate that some part of the crime was actually witnessed although unbeknownst to the witness thus not making it the case of perfect "luck" that some seem to believe.

2) more importantly, imo, z had no idea how much time he'd have without witnesses and by all accounts there were a LOT of folks out and about that night. hunters, workers, drivers, etc all have story lines that involve this supposedly desolate area. that says to me that z either had a leg up that we don't know about (surveillance, someone helping him as a look out, etc) or he didn't care if he was witnessed. the latter seems to the be the case in the stine killing so it might not be too farfetched to believe he didn't care.

This is doing my head in, as they say.

But I just realized something. Borges states that she thinks she left home at ten minutes past. It is then noted (in the report) that her watch was a minute off - too fast). But what is incontestable here - and beyond any reasonable doubt - is that she reached the cops (Pitta) at 23:25. The cops then proceeded immediately to the crime scene and arrived there three minutes later, at 23:28. These were cops - they made note of the exact time, there can be no doubt about that.

From what I can gather the drive - and she wasn't driving leisurely, obviously - from the crime scene to where she encountered the cops, would not have taken more than a couple of minutes. Which means that she can't have passed by the crime at a quarter past - that would mean it took her ten minutes to reach the cops, and that is not possible. So, she must have departed later than she thought, or driven more slowly - or whatever. But she can't have discovered the bodies at quarter past.

Borges would have passed the crime scene and discovered the bodies at 23:20 at the earliest. That is my take on it anyway.

So, bringing James Owen into it, he might conceivably have driven past some five minutes prior to Borges and observed Z (who had then just pulled up) before the latter struck.

Z sees Owen driving by, then proceeds immediately to attack the poor kids, then drives off. Borges drives past at roughly 23:20, which could actually have been several minutes (three? four?) after Z had departed. The shooting itself didn't take long.

Owen claimed to have heard gunshots - a detail he remembered by and by, but that is another story - which is in keeping with this sequence of events: Again, Z pulls up, Owen passes, Z strikes soon after Owen has passed. Owen then hears the shots, but has proceeded far enough for this sound to be less than immediately alarming to him.

It makes sense. Almost. The one thing which stands out as not making sense - to me - is that Z goes to work immediately after Owen has passed (which he must have done). Did Z think that the road was pretty much deserted and that Owen was just an anomaly, a random driver after whom nobody was likely to appear? The fact is that the road was anything but deserted - people drove by all the damn time, as evidenced by Borges appearing shortly after.

It was a very risky move on Z's part, all things said and done. And one which may even be described as reckless. Had Borges delayed her departure by just a few minutes, she would have witnessed the whole thing. Cars flew by all evening, it would seem - and it doesn't seem like an exceptional frequency either. Poor research on Z's part? Or just recklessness?

Norse, Stella thought she left her home at that very specific time, that's right. She found the bodies, and raced off for help. According to her estimate, she would have been there on top of Owen, which is not possible, but based on the time she reached the cops, that is how they arrived at a 6 minute window. I think the window may be closer to 3 or 4 minutes. Either way a couple things trouble m about the scenario.

Z is parked next to the kids. Owen drives by and sees no people in or around the cars, yet a 1/4 mile down the road, claims he hears a shot,so i am guessing, a leisurely 35mph or 45mph, seems like it would take no more than 20 seconds to drive for Owen before he hears a shot. So, where was Z and the victims when Owen passed by? Some have argued that Z may have already ordered them out and made them duck down out of view, but this does not meet the physical evidence, and I also think the kids would have raised hell to get Owen's attention, so this seems unlikely to me. The other alternative is, Z was ducked down in his car and the Victims ducked down in their car. Here's what's troubling with that, Z sees headlights coming , and jumps down in his seat to hide, and after the car passes springs out and starts shooting? He wouldn't know what the passing car had seen, or if his car was witnessed,or whether or not it even may have been a cop, that's a very big chance to take. Also, previous witnesses that saw the Victims that night saw them sitting up in the car, so that does not fit them possibly laying down.

If Owen really heard a shot a 1/4 mile down the road, that would leave no time for Z to check if the coast was clear, or to try talking to the kids to order them out, he would have had to spring out immediately from his hiding spot, and started shooting.

The whole argument of Z being on foot just simply can not be,'IF' Owen is being truthful, since the shooting started right after he passed, no time for the car to pull out and Z to arrive on foot. That 2nd car, if there was one, must have belonged to the shooter. Some people would dismiss the possibility of Owen lying being due to the possibility of him wanting some sort of attention, but not many consider the other possible reason for him to lie.

You are forgetting she had a son to pick up at the movies. What was he, something like, 13. Thought I read that someplace. I don't know. Think maybe she might have thought about getting her kid and hoped she found a cop along the way? Just come across a crime scene. Close to home. Doesn't know if they are alive or dead. Mother instinct kicks in. She goes there first.

Soze

Faraday's seat was in a reclined position when cops arrived to scene. So they were reclined and possibly in that position when Owen and/or Z come on the scene.

Soze

Soze wrote:Faraday's seat was in a reclined position when cops arrived to scene. So they were reclined and possibly in that position when Owen and/or Z come on the scene.

Soze

Trust me, a couple horny young teens necking, I would not rule out them reclining back in the seat, but it just doesn't match what other witnesses reported. And even if they were reclined, where was Z? It still does not change the fact he took major risks beginning to shoot 20 seconds after a witness just went by.

Call me a prude, but I don't see this couple going on a first date, lying to her parents and then sneaking away to a lover's lane. There was a curfew and I'm sure they didn't want to do anything to upset her parents. I'm thinking Zodiac could have hijacked this couple somewhere away from the scene and then ordered them to the spot and to lower the seat. There is just something about this whole scenario that does not make sense to me for a young couple on their first date unless they had gotten quite familiar with each other at school perhaps.

It was a first date as far as the parents were concerned, but they had been seeing each other.

David's sister mentioned David told her they would be out on LHR that night because some friends were going out there, so they were probably just looking for their friends.

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