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Tahoe27 wrote: Also, one casing was found on what would looks to be the opposite side of the other car parked there....the side closest to the fence. That would make it appear as if it was fired from the passenger side of the other car. COULD there have been two people?

See these two link:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR4.html

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR5.html

OR,as I have wondered, could Zodiac's car have been backed in? If it was backed in and zodiac got out of his Driver's side, and fired a shot in the air(or in any direction),that shell casing would have landed right around where it was found.

Could the casing that was 20 feet away have been the last shot and not first? Z is getting back into his vehicle and notices BL rollover on her side or hears her and decides to take one last shot for good measure.

Craigfitzer wrote:Traveller - You said "I was pitch black wasn't it?" As we know it can be almost as light as day when the moon is full and fairly light on a half moon, which really could change how we look at everything if that were the case on December 20th 1968. But if you check out the chart below you'll see that you are right it would have been "pitch" black, almost no moon.

Sorry, if this is old news.

Probably for some but not for me. By that I mean I hadn't previously checked if it had been the case. Thanks, nice illustration to include too. Certainly corroborates Z's claims in his second letter of Aug 4th '69 about it being 'dark'.

The police report reads there was a "blood splattered path on her attempted escape route".

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR9.html

Had Zodiac driven in between the Rambler and Betty Lou, wouldn't there have been evidence of that in the blood?

Tahoe27 wrote:The police report reads there was a "blood splattered path on her attempted escape route".

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR9.html

Had Zodiac driven in between the Rambler and Betty Lou, wouldn't there have been evidence of that in the blood?

Wow,that's a good point, so maybe Zodiac parked behind them like at BRS. If so, this would cast doubt on Owen's statement. He saw two cars side by side, and 30 seconds later,claims he heard that shot. There is no time for Z to suddenly jump in his car, back it up, get out and shoot in 30 seconds, which is what he would have had to do to avoid backing thru the blood. I wonder if any cops asked the question Tahoe did?? Wonder if they have better quality in depth photos?

What are we talking about ?
in the Cold Case files #1 ( which is hard to find taken off most video web sites now ) the Detective states David's Rambler station wagon was pulled in head first -it is still parked there in the video. The killers car said to be parked to the right of it .
David is led out of the driver side and taken to the R side of the rambler behind the RR door and shot in the head . which causes Betty to then try to escape out the drivers door unless she wanted to run into Z . Doing so gave Z time to get around to the other side to shoot her running away to the left of the Rambler .

ace ventura wrote:What are we talking about ?
in the Cold Case files #1 ( which is hard to find taken off most video web sites now ) the Detective states David's Rambler station wagon was pulled in head first -it is still parked there in the video. The killers car said to be parked to the right of it .
David is led out of the driver side and taken to the R side of the rambler behind the RR door and shot in the head . which causes Betty to then try to escape out the drivers door unless she wanted to run into Z . Doing so gave Z time to get around to the other side to shoot her running away to the left of the Rambler .

The Rambler WAS pulled in head first. Owen claims that Zodiac's car was parked to the right of it either 3-4 feet to the right, or 10 feet (depending on which of Owen's two statements you believe, as he stated both 3-4 & 10). Police worked out a scenario in which Zodiac ordered them out thru the passenger side door,shot Dave immediately, and then as Betty ran towards the main road (away from the Rambler),zodiac shot her in the back, and she fell. Zodiac would then have needed to backed his car out, avoiding the bodies, and presumably somehow, not driving thru a puddle or stream of blood. That is what Tahoe & I were talking about,the report mentioned a line of blood from Betty's wounds as she ran, and indeed, if you look very closely at the police sketch, there is a faintly drawn blood trail on the sketch.I am including a comparison of the sketches, witness views, etc, and hopefully it wont be too confusing.

A couple questions come to mind,first off, if Betty was shot all those times in the back and fell to the ground, how fast would that blood puddle/stream have formed? Assuming Z got right back in his car, and backed out, would there be a blood puddle there already for him to drive thru? What Tahoe and I were wondering, (at least I am wondering)is what if Zodiac parked directly behind the couple as he did at BRS? He could have walked up to the couple on the passenger side, just at BRS. Betty rolls down her window, and Z orders them out. Maybe Dave makes a move, starts the car, or whatever, and Zodiac facing the passenger side door and facing LHR, fires a warning shot to get them out, that shell casing would eject to the right,and maybe slightly back but not likely over towards where that stray casing was found. Once the couple slid out of the pass side, Zodiac would have turned around now to get behind them, and his right side would now be facing LHR. If he shoots at this point Dave immediately, and Betty as she ran, all the casings would wind up in a tight group as the evidence shows they did, but they likely would have ejected to the right of the gun, perhaps towards the hood of Dave's car, which didnt seem to be the case. The problem with this entire scenario is, it completely would clash with Owen's story. He flat out says the car was on the right of Dave's car, and 30 seconds after he went by the scene, he heard the shot. Z couldnt have been parked behind the Rambler IF Owen is being honest, and if Owen is not being honest,he likely is Zodiac.

My next question, based on the tight area between the gate and the road, Dave's car would be easy to see,but what about Zodiac's if it was 3-4 ft from Dave's or 10 feet from Dave's? How hard would it be for Zodiac to back out of that spot avoiding blood & bodies if he was either 3-4 ft away from Dave's car or 10 ft?
And lastly, if Zodiac really was parked behind Faraday's, how close to the road would he have been? Hanging out in the road? What if Z parked paralell to LHR, instead of pulling directly behind Dave? This scenario would block Dave in, but not blind him with headlights, then zodiac could jump in his car and get out quick with no danger of running over bodies, blood, etc, but again, if Zodiac was parked anyplace but to the right of Dave's Rambler, Owen is lying, and again, if he is lying, he is likely zodiac. In the end, maybe Zodiac attacked at BRS, the same way he attacked at LHR, pulled up behind, got out, walked up to the pass side of the victim's car. This merits further research & discussion

I don't see how the car could have been only 3-4 feet away from the rambler. David's body was laying perpendicular to the rambler. How tall was he? Another car would have to have been farther away than David was tall in my opinion. Or else he would have ran over Faraday's head backing (or pulling) out.

traveller1st wrote:

Craigfitzer wrote:Traveller - You said "I was pitch black wasn't it?" As we know it can be almost as light as day when the moon is full and fairly light on a half moon, which really could change how we look at everything if that were the case on December 20th 1968. But if you check out the chart below you'll see that you are right it would have been "pitch" black, almost no moon.

Sorry, if this is old news.

Probably for some but not for me. By that I mean I hadn't previously checked if it had been the case. Thanks, nice illustration to include too. Certainly corroborates Z's claims in his second letter of Aug 4th '69 about it being 'dark'.

And could this account for Owen not having a better description of the second car?

Looking at the layout of the road and the parking area where the murders occurred, let's imagine you're approaching in your vehicle. Faraday's car was parked relatively close to the road. An oncoming car's headlights would illuminate Faraday's car quite brightly, if even for just a few moments until the oncoming car followed the path of LHR and veered left on toward Benicia. A second car, parked to the right of Faraday's and nearer the gate, would not come into view of the headlights of the oncoming car, at least not as brightly, anyway. The line-of-sight of car headlights on that leftward veer would not allow for a completely illuminated view of a second car, especially if that second car was farther away from Faraday's than the 3-4 or even 10 feet that James Owen estimated. Owen's lack of clarity in describing the second car might be genuine. The car simply would have been out of view for the few seconds he was driving by the parking area, and since Dec. 20 was only one night after a New Moon, that second car would have been sitting in near-total blackness.

This assumes, of course, that the shooter parked to the right of Faraday's Rambler. At BRS, Zodiac pulled in behind Ferrin's car. Maybe this was a lesson learned at LHR. Maybe he parked too far away from Faraday's car and made a mental note to himself not to make the same mistake again. Maybe he had a few seconds worth of trouble getting out of LHR after the bodies fell where they did, and he took all this into consideration. (All just speculation on my part...) Serial killers do improve their efficiency over time, and with practice, no? (At least up to a point of arrogance, when the pendulum begins to swing in favor of the law and the killer gets egotistically sloppy. But I digress....)

BuckwheatFlowers wrote:I don't see how the car could have been only 3-4 feet away from the rambler. David's body was laying perpendicular to the rambler. How tall was he? Another car would have to have been farther away than David was tall in my opinion. Or else he would have ran over Faraday's head backing (or pulling) out.

If you look at the original photo posted on this feed. My sons right foot is exactly 4 feet away from the vehicle. Our immediate thought was that David's body would not have had room to lay where it was unless he fell and was leaning against Z's vehicle. This seems a bit unlikely. We pretty much eliminated the idea that Z was parked 4 feet away - even more so if he was park 3 feet away.

On a side note but connected. I am in the process of reading Lafferty's book "Zodiac Killer Cover up" He mentions his first encounter with his suspect as having pulled up next to him "5 inches" away. Please don't take this as me agreeing with his suspect, just a thought.