Today's visit to Lake Herman Road

[Tahoe27]

First, in my opinion I see no way the second car (possible zodiac) was only four feet away. For a few reasons but one being where the David was laying. There would not have been enough room for him to fall the way the chalk outline indicated if parked that close. And very little room to Manuever. Ten feet makes much more sense.

Secondly, if the Zodiac was really parked by the DF/BLJ car, it would have been a task to pull his car out of there without running over BLJ and to me it doesn't make sense that he would have backed in. I was shocked on how small this area is. Where her body was and being at night and having to most likely back out I'm not sure how he did it! It certainly wasn't easy. Pictures really don't show how small that area is.

Thirdly, this is my opinion but there is no way that someone could pass that area, at night or not and not see people in that car or even around it. It is so close to the road that it would be extremely difficult to NOT see someone, whether in or out if the vehicle.

So here's a feeling I got when I was there, just a hunch. I'm not sure that the zodiac pulled in there at all. I think he may have been on foot. I checked out where the Racoon hunters where and it's about a 1 minute walk. Not saying it's them but maybe he parked close and walked over. Just a thought. Of course if what I am saying is true then that opens up another can if worms.

I have expressed these same sentiments in the past. I do agree.

[sandy betts]

I can't count how many times I have been there ( Mostly daytime) , in fact I was just there on Dec 21st. It is just too creepy late at night . Yes the area is a small area, but there is plenty of room for another car to have parked 10 to 20 feet from Davids car. It has been my gut feeling ,that Betty Lou seeing David get shot as they stood next to the car , tried to run for cover . I feel she ran to the other side of the shooters car for some protection then towards the street. Her body If I remember correctly, was about 20 some feet from Davids Car .

Late at night driving from Vallejo towards Benicia , people sitting in a car where David was parked, could see headlights coming over the hill. And in a split second or two , the on coming cars lights hit that exact spot . Cars coming from the other direction , you could hear before seeing them. It wouldn't take much to miss seeing a car parked in that spot if you were talking to someone or reaching for a cigarette lighter, glancing away for whatever reason. You past it in the blink of an eye, so yes you could miss seeing people parked at that spot.That has to be true, because Benicia PD drove past and did not remember seeing a car there. According to the time ,David's car had to be there.
I am still thinking that Zodiac could have worked at either Humble oil or at Syar. It happened around the time of a shift change. My guess is that Zodiac had just gotten off work and knew that there would not be much traffic,that he could do his thing with less chance of anyone driving by at that time. As it turned out very few saw anything.
For fresh foot prints to be found behind the pump house, it could be that the Zodiac was watching them for a while, like he did later at Lake Berryessa. If that was the case , then did he park close by or next to them and then walk to the pump house? I doubt he was there before they got there and waited for a couple to park .

[Craigfitzer]

He could have parked there but backing out would have been extremely difficult considering where the body was. This is something we looked at while there. And I'm just not buying that someone wouldn't have noticed a car there. Possibly he noticed them, parked a bit down the road and walked back. He had time to do that and would do it at Berryessa.

[morf13]

This is the second time I've been to the MH site. The first time was years ago before I knew anything about the case. My wife was born and raised in Vallejo and her mother worked at the news paper when the letters were coming in so I've heard much about the case. But no real specifics. Going to this site this time I was a bit more armed with information. A few thoughts after my visit. And I'd love your feedback.

First, in my opinion I see no way the second car (possible zodiac) was only four feet away. For a few reasons but one being where the David was laying. There would not have been enough room for him to fall the way the chalk outline indicated if parked that close. And very little room to Manuever. Ten feet makes much more sense.

Secondly, if the Zodiac was really parked by the DF/BLJ car, it would have been a task to pull his car out of there without running over BLJ and to me it doesn't make sense that he would have backed in. I was shocked on how small this area is. Where her body was and being at night and having to most likely back out I'm not sure how he did it! It certainly wasn't easy. Pictures really don't show how small that area is.

Thirdly, this is my opinion but there is no way that someone could pass that area, at night or not and not see people in that car or even around it. It is so close to the road that it would be extremely difficult to NOT see someone, whether in or out if the vehicle.

So here's a feeling I got when I was there, just a hunch. I'm not sure that the zodiac pulled in there at all. I think he may have been on foot. I checked out where the Racoon hunters where and it's about a 1 minute walk. Not saying it's them but maybe he parked close and walked over. Just a thought. Of course if what I am saying is true then that opens up another can if worms.

Its very highly unlikely Zodiac was on foot. Owen passed that scene at 11:14 & said he saw no people or bodies, just the car parked next to Faraday's,and a 1/4 mile down the road,heard the shooting start. No time for that car to pull out & leave, and somebody to walk up on foot all within 30 seconds. That 2nd car(if it was really there)had to belong to z

[Craigfitzer]

Morf - If Owen is being truthful. Which I believe you question.

[sandy betts]

Morf - If Owen is being truthful. Which I believe you question.

Even if Owen wasn't telling the trurth or was mistaken about the time. There is plenty of room for the Z car to not only back out, but he could make a turn and pull out without running over either body.
I noticed in the picture you took of where you thought David had parked, that you were parked about 5 feet from the metal railing ? I am pretty sure David was very close to that railing. I would be willing to meet you there and check out just how much room there is with two cars there , we could put blankets in place of where the body's were and I will show you how it could have been done without a problem. I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, I have been there with others who had the crime scene drawing, so I could see just how much room there really was for the z car to pull out.

[Welsh Chappie]

I Really can't see why people have such difficulty with the possibility that Zodiac was out on Lake Herman Rd on foot? There are several points to note if Z was in a vehicle that night:

1. Parking there in that space would leave Zodiac and his vehicle completely exposed to any passers by both in his vehicle being identified as well as possibility of being seen in the act of shooting David and/or Betty.

2. Escape via vehicle on such a dark, desolate and quiet country lane road would see any vehicle stand out and would be so easy to detect.

3. Assuming the common assumption is correct and Zodiac fired one shot into the Rambler, why didn't David pull away that instant?

4. Zodiac murdered Paul Stine in the middle or an affluent neighbourhood on a street corner at 10pm, then walked off down the street heading, as many believe, for the dark and open expanse of the Prisidio Grounds on foot. Yet it's illogical to believe he did similar on Lake Herman Rd?

5. Zodiac doesn't phone the crime in and alert them to Stine's murder as he had done with his two previous attacks. When we know Zodiac was driving, ie, Blue Rock & Lake B, he phoned to report his own handiwork. Yet, in Presidio Heights he was on foot, and no call was made by him. Nor did he phone it in after the Lake Herman attack.

6. Even though the ground was reported frozen that night, this area is a gravel parking area and no tyre tracks were found from a second vehicle.

7. No witnesses, nor responding Police Officers, recall passing a vehicle heading away from the scene as they were making their way toward the scene.

I don't know why the report claims frozen ground was a factor in not leaving trye impressions behind because this pic seems to suggest otherwise...

LHR Trye arrow edit.jpg

[morf13]

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac's,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave's,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

[Welsh Chappie]

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac's,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave's,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

"Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw."

Well we've discussed it before and Owen doesn't seem to know what he saw and where it was in relation to a second vehicle. Owen can clearly recall that there were two vehicles. He also is able to observe, and recall, that one of these vehicles was "a 1955 or 56 Station Waggon, the boxy type, and neutral in colour." Very good observation skills on Mr Owen's part, as well as memory recollection. And what was his description of this 2nd vehicle that nobody else saw either parked there or on Lake Herman Itself? Cannot give a make, model, colour, or even general description! Bit convenient. But, James may not have been able to see any features or shape f the second vehicle, but at least he is sure he knows where it was when he saw this mysterious vehicle except for the bit where he clearly doesn't seem to know. One minute it 3 ft away from Dave's Rambler, then it's jumped to 10 ft away!

So for me, he can describe and remember the detail of the vehicle we all know without question was there, but the second one and a description? Didn't see the make, model, colour or any details that would be of use. I'm not surprised nobody else saw Zodiac escaping as his vehicle seems to teleport from point A to Point B.
In all seriousness though Morf, I just don't believe him and his account of a second vehicle. Other witnesses drove past within minutes of Owen and none report seeing a second vehicle there and maybe more importantly, not passing one as they approached the scene on Lake Herman either.

[Tahoe27]

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac's,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave's,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

"Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw."

Well we've discussed it before and Owen doesn't seem to know what he saw and where it was in relation to a second vehicle. Owen can clearly recall that there were two vehicles. He also is able to observe, and recall, that one of these vehicles was "a 1955 or 56 Station Waggon, the boxy type, and neutral in colour." Very good observation skills on Mr Owen's part, as well as memory recollection. And what was his description of this 2nd vehicle that nobody else saw either parked there or on Lake Herman Itself? Cannot give a make, model, colour, or even general description! Bit convenient. But, James may not have been able to see any features or shape f the second vehicle, but at least he is sure he knows where it was when he saw this mysterious vehicle except for the bit where he clearly doesn't seem to know. One minute it 3 ft away from Dave's Rambler, then it's jumped to 10 ft away!

So for me, he can describe and remember the detail of the vehicle we all know without question was there, but the second one and a description? Didn't see the make, model, colour or any details that would be of use. I'm not surprised nobody else saw Zodiac escaping as his vehicle seems to teleport from point A to Point B.
In all seriousness though Morf, I just don't believe him and his account of a second vehicle. Other witnesses drove past within minutes of Owen and none report seeing a second vehicle there and maybe more importantly, not passing one as they approached the scene on Lake Herman either.

It does make one wonder if this is a case of someone wanting to be more "in the know" than they actually were.

He mentions nothing of passing another car going in the opposite direction of him and nothing of hearing a shot until a few days later. Seems like he would have heard more than one shot too.