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Interesting note on James Owen, according to his obit he has a son name Kenneth.

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/fea ... e-19790405

Guessing there weren't too many Kenny Owens in Vallejo back then....

Itsapuzzle wrote:I think you've done a great job of distilling all the various police reports/interviews into a cohesive timeline Morf. One of my fascinations with the Zodiac case is--how did he do it? The mechanics of his actions. In the case of Lake Herman Road, where was he in the 20 minutes before the shooting? I think he must have been aware of David and Betty Lou and the Yours and the hunters, and if he's not Owens, I think he must have seen his headlights approaching. I've not been to Lake Herman road, but from google maps it appears to be lined with trees, narrow, maybe even a bit twisty in places. Was he off the side of the road, watching? Did he drive with his headlights off when approaching and leaving the scene so no one saw his car? It was a moonless night--he could use that to his advantage. It seems everyone has their area of interest and mine is on how did he do this--such a quick hit, really. I also tend to think Z was a hunter, and my understanding is that some hunters stalk prey while others hunt an area. I think z was the later. So I believe he had an awareness of many of the people out there--but where was he?

If Zodiac was parked out of sight for the entirety of the attack and approached the Rambler on foot, are there any favoured theories about where such a hidden parking location may be? The idea of Zodiac on foot at Lake Herman Rd has possibly been discounted by the short window timeline or because it was very cold but I'm not sure that convinces me. If anyone has any thoughts on this matter I would be interested to know.

I am of the opinion Druzer the timeline indicates the window available was likely 12 minutes not 6, although I'm probably in the minority. http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR6.html
This police report names Stella Medeiros and states the time as 11.14-11.20 pm. The reason is because they had already worked out James Owen's time he passed the turnout was 11.14 pm on the fact he had stated he left the house at 11.00 pm, and they know she passed the turnout afterwards. This report is dated 23rd December 1968.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR15.html This report is dated 24th December 1968, asking him to check the accuracy of cuckoo clock by phoning the time. It revealed it was 6 minutes fast. So the 11.14 pm estimate must be corrected to 11.08 pm. There too is debate on Stella's time, but if we backtrack from Daniel Pitta's police report stating she flagged him down at 11.25 pm, then she passed the turnout at 11.20 pm. http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/galler ... fullsize=1
This would give Zodiac a 11.08-11.20 pm window, rather than 6 minutes.
Zodiac parked approximately 10 feet to the right of the Faraday Rambler, visible to James Owen. I doubt he was on foot that night, as we would have to assume the vehicle observed by James Owen had nothing to do with the crime. Plus he believed he heard a shot 30 seconds after passing the turnout. Here is an overlay.

"I am of the opinion Druzer the timeline indicates the window available was likely 12 minutes not 6, although I'm probably in the minority."
I think you have proven this Richard! You shouldn't be in the minority. The timeline battles should be over in my opinion. The Owen testimony about the gunshot is the only vital claim that still sounds slippery to me. If I was sporting man I would bet on the Impala theory, and the method in the Blue Rock Springs attack definitely supports this. However, I'm gonna take a swing at it anyway because it is possible that the car parked next the Rambler identified by Owen was not involved.

The small window between Owen passing the Rambler and hearing the gunshot 30 seconds later is crucial, obviously. If Owen was substantially off in his estimate and heard the shot a minute or two later, the car he saw may well have driven off in the other direction just after he passed. The two cars were just sitting there with the lights off at least for a spell, so we know the Impala didn't attempt to block the Rambler or attack immediately.

Impala Zodiac or otherwise, I think that David or Betty Lou did manage to start the car so that they could back away from the attack but were caught off guard and their opportunity quickly disappeared. The possibility of their surprise increases if they were not seated upright. A waiting gunman parked out of sight away from the turnout approaching on foot from the darkness would have been able to get the jump on them, do the deed and escape unseen. The advantage in this alternate and admittedly less likely scenario is that it seems like a safer plan for Zodiac. If he is in the Impala and has already been spotted in the area he is taking a big risk disregarding Owen, especially if he is local.

Anyways thanks for reading my newbie theory!

Richard Grinell wrote:I am of the opinion Druzer the timeline indicates the window available was likely 12 minutes not 6, although I'm probably in the minority. http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR6.html
This police report names Stella Medeiros and states the time as 11.14-11.20 pm. The reason is because they had already worked out James Owen's time he passed the turnout was 11.14 pm on the fact he had stated he left the house at 11.00 pm, and they know she passed the turnout afterwards. This report is dated 23rd December 1968.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR15.html This report is dated 24th December 1968, asking him to check the accuracy of cuckoo clock by phoning the time. It revealed it was 6 minutes fast. So the 11.14 pm estimate must be corrected to 11.08 pm. There too is debate on Stella's time, but if we backtrack from Daniel Pitta's police report stating she flagged him down at 11.25 pm, then she passed the turnout at 11.20 pm. http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/galler ... fullsize=1
This would give Zodiac a 11.08-11.20 pm window, rather than 6 minutes.
Zodiac parked approximately 10 feet to the right of the Faraday Rambler, visible to James Owen. I doubt he was on foot that night, as we would have to assume the vehicle observed by James Owen had nothing to do with the crime. Plus he believed he heard a shot 30 seconds after passing the turnout. Here is an overlay.

Or 3-4 feet apart(depends which account by Owen is to be believed since he mentioned both distances). The difference is huge, because 3-4 feet apart vs 10 feet apart, effects what the crime scene tells us. One of his two statements would not match the evidence.

Thanks for the shell casings graphic Richard. One possibility of the shell casing far away from the others is that when the gun ejected the casing, it struck Dave's car,off the hood etc. and ricocheted over to that spot. There's no way to explain why that shell was way over there. Then again, if Zodiac got out of his driver's seat, and walked up to Betty's door who would be right next to Zodiac's door, then shot into the roof of their car before ordering them out thru Betty's side, then all of the shots would have happened between the two cars on the right pass side of Dave's car. I can't see any angles which would land that casing so far away.

Richard, I'd like your opinion... Evidence suggests that Betty & Dave were ordered out of their car on Betty's side and that Dave was shot once in the head as Betty ran off where she was shot in the back. How can we explain Owen passing by and seeing no people in or around the cars, yet hearing a shot a quarter mile up the road. We've previously estimated that we are talking less than 30 seconds after passing by. What do you think happened? Where were Zodiac & the kids in this scenario? No wheres in sight, but just seconds later the shooting starts. One scenario is that both Zodiac, and the kids were ducked down in their own cars and when Owen passed, Zodiac sprang into action. Is there enough time for the shooting to start within say 20 seconds? Also, what's your take on the shell casing found so far from the others?

Hi, I apologize if this question has been answered years ago: Isn't there room to question Owen's days late recollection of hearing a single presumed warning shot only 20-30 seconds after passing if he did not also hear the multiple shots that soon followed before clearing the area? If he is correct we know the culprit is in the Impala and exactly when the attack started, but if he is incorrect then we have upwards of 12 minutes to allow an innocent narrative to unfold regarding the Impala. Sorry again if this question is old news! Thanks

Richard has a great way of laying it out there...nice visualizations.

morf13 wrote:

Richard Grinell wrote:I am of the opinion Druzer the timeline indicates the window available was likely 12 minutes not 6, although I'm probably in the minority. http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR6.html
This police report names Stella Medeiros and states the time as 11.14-11.20 pm. The reason is because they had already worked out James Owen's time he passed the turnout was 11.14 pm on the fact he had stated he left the house at 11.00 pm, and they know she passed the turnout afterwards. This report is dated 23rd December 1968.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR15.html This report is dated 24th December 1968, asking him to check the accuracy of cuckoo clock by phoning the time. It revealed it was 6 minutes fast. So the 11.14 pm estimate must be corrected to 11.08 pm. There too is debate on Stella's time, but if we backtrack from Daniel Pitta's police report stating she flagged him down at 11.25 pm, then she passed the turnout at 11.20 pm. http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/galler ... fullsize=1
This would give Zodiac a 11.08-11.20 pm window, rather than 6 minutes.
Zodiac parked approximately 10 feet to the right of the Faraday Rambler, visible to James Owen. I doubt he was on foot that night, as we would have to assume the vehicle observed by James Owen had nothing to do with the crime. Plus he believed he heard a shot 30 seconds after passing the turnout. Here is an overlay.

Or 3-4 feet apart(depends which account by Owen is to be believed since he mentioned both distances). The difference is huge, because 3-4 feet apart vs 10 feet apart, effects what the crime scene tells us. One of his two statements would not match the evidence.

Thanks for the shell casings graphic Richard. One possibility of the shell casing far away from the others is that when the gun ejected the casing, it struck Dave's car,off the hood etc. and ricocheted over to that spot. There's no way to explain why that shell was way over there. Then again, if Zodiac got out of his driver's seat, and walked up to Betty's door who would be right next to Zodiac's door, then shot into the roof of their car before ordering them out thru Betty's side, then all of the shots would have happened between the two cars on the right pass side of Dave's car. I can't see any angles which would land that casing so far away.

Richard, I'd like your opinion... Evidence suggests that Betty & Dave were ordered out of their car on Betty's side and that Dave was shot once in the head as Betty ran off where she was shot in the back. How can we explain Owen passing by and seeing no people in or around the cars, yet hearing a shot a quarter mile up the road. We've previously estimated that we are talking less than 30 seconds after passing by. What do you think happened? Where were Zodiac & the kids in this scenario? No wheres in sight, but just seconds later the shooting starts. One scenario is that both Zodiac, and the kids were ducked down in their own cars and when Owen passed, Zodiac sprang into action. Is there enough time for the shooting to start within say 20 seconds? Also, what's your take on the shell casing found so far from the others?

I think it more likely Mike the vehicles were 10 feet apart because had David Faraday been shot with the vehicles only 3-4 feet apart, he almost certainly would have struck the assailant's vehicle as he fell, drastically altering his eventual position in the turnout. David Faraday was over 5 1/2 feet in height. To lie almost perpendicular to the rear wheel, as he was discovered, he would have to have been lying under the assailants vehicle, which isn't very likely. Also at least four casings would have landed level or under the assailants vehicle, if you take the casing distances recorded, and yet none were flattened on his exit.
Regarding the 'stray' bullet I have heard many plausible explanations, but let us say the assailant's vehicle was 10-14 feet away. The shot into the headliner had a straight trajectory, embedding in the upper section of the Rambler lining on the left side. Imagine the shooter firing this shot the immediate second he exits his driver side, then the expended cartridge ejects to his rear striking the roof of his vehicle. If his vehicle is say 13 feet away, then we add the width of his vehicle of 5-6 feet, then the casing may possibly land 20 feet from the Rambler. You will notice this stray casing is in line with the driver side door of the assailant's vehicle, having just likely ejected across his vehicle. Ricocheting off it, if you will.
I think the couple and the killer were likely still in their respective vehicles. James Owen stated he didn't see anybody in the vehicles, but that doesn't mean they weren't. I know he stated 'dark car,' but he didn't recall anything about the second vehicle, not the make or model, or the color. So it's probably no great leap of faith that he didn't spot the occupant, who was likely going out of his way not to be spotted. I think James Owen was just being honest, he simply saw nobody in or around the vehicles, but he likely just didn't notice. It was pitch black with only a fleeting glimpse of his headlights.
Even the 10 feet statement Owen gave is only an estimate, it could have been 11, 12, 13, 14 feet. The bigger the distance between the two vehicles, the less stray the 'stray' casing becomes. Likewise James Owen said "he thought he heard a shot". That doesn't mean he did hear a shot. The bullet fired into the window was likely fired from a gun approximately 2-3 feet away, in order to create the 17-18 degree angle with the horizontal, indicating the suspect was about 4.5 feet away when he opened fire. This certainly negates a second vehicle 3-4 feet away, as he would be unable to perform this trajectory. At least not with a normal shooting position, with a straight arm.
I am with Ray on ruling out the couple and Zodiac hiding behind or in between the vehicles, as James Owen never stated anything about the Rambler door being open. We know by all accounts, as he passed the turnout, the door on the Rambler was shut. Had he then passed and Zodiac began the murders, why would he then re-open the Rambler door before he left the scene. From all we know he didn't take anything that night and wasn't regarded a thief.
This is a depiction of the window shot.

Thanks for the visual tools Richard. I have suspected Owen in the past based on some of his inconsistencies from one account to the next, 3-4 feet vs 10 feet, not hearing a shot vs hearing a shot,etc. I still can't imagine how somebody standing at the scene of a double shooting giving a statement to police 9 hours after the crime doesn't remember to mention a gun shot but suddenly remembers it 3 days later. But besides that, he doesn't fit the profile or physical description.

In some aspects, the police did a good job investigating this crime as far as carefully trying to align all of the witnesses timelines etc. In other respects, they allowed Owen to question a co worker about what the co worker may have witnessed. They tested rifles belonging to the hunters & Owen, but when they later found the gun that was used was a handgun, did they ask those men for their hand guns? And I know for a fact that one of the investigators at that crime scene, whose name I won't mention, took evidence from that crime, and kept it for decades!

I'd also like to point out, I don't know if we have seen every report about this case. I know that I have been long interested in this timeline and that Richard has been spending a lot of time on it lately, but we don't know if we have all the reports to form the right opinions. The official police timeline is that Zodiac had a 6 minute window. Richard thinks it may be longer, but again, maybe the police have other info that makes them confident in the 6 minute window. One example is, when I interviewed Owen, he told me that the police had him drive the route at different speeds from his home to the crime scene. That is not mentioned in any reports. What else are we missing?

morf13 wrote:Thanks for the visual tools Richard. I have suspected Owen in the past based on some of his inconsistencies from one account to the next, 3-4 feet vs 10 feet, not hearing a shot vs hearing a shot,etc. I still can't imagine how somebody standing at the scene of a double shooting giving a statement to police 9 hours after the crime doesn't remember to mention a gun shot but suddenly remembers it 3 days later. But besides that, he doesn't fit the profile or physical description.

In some aspects, the police did a good job investigating this crime as far as carefully trying to align all of the witnesses timelines etc. In other respects, they allowed Owen to question a co worker about what the co worker may have witnessed. They tested rifles belonging to the hunters & Owen, but when they later found the gun that was used was a handgun, did they ask those men for their hand guns? And I know for a fact that one of the investigators at that crime scene, whose name I won't mention, took evidence from that crime, and kept it for decades!

I'd also like to point out, I don't know if we have seen every report about this case. I know that I have been long interested in this timeline and that Richard has been spending a lot of time on it lately, but we don't know if we have all the reports to form the right opinions. The official police timeline is that Zodiac had a 6 minute window. Richard thinks it may be longer, but again, maybe the police have other info that makes them confident in the 6 minute window. One example is, when I interviewed Owen, he told me that the police had him drive the route at different speeds from his home to the crime scene. That is not mentioned in any reports. What else are we missing?

Mike, are you talking about what Mike Rodelli mentioned, that **** ********** took the 10th shell casing home. The one I believe was discovered on the front floorboard of the Rambler and towed away. If so it would be crucial to retrieve this casing.