A real good article on shell casing evidence, and ejection patterns here:
http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/200 ... -location/
I still think if you see a whole bunch of shots grouped together, and then 2 stray casings 14 or 20 ft away, it's likely due to shots coming from two different areas.
BULLETS
Re: BULLETS
by morf13 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:55 am
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
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Re: BULLETS
by BuckwheatFlowers » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:02 pm
morf13 wrote:BuckwheatFlowers wrote:One is 20 ft. Another one is 14 ft, although in the police sketch it's drawn bunched close to the main group of shells(obviously out of scale). The rest are close to the car. I've never personally had a shell travel 14 ft. Although I've never done any shooting in a gravel parking area.
Two shots fired from further away,14&20ft away warning shots if you will,into the air, or into their car,etc.....then all of the grouped shell casings fired at the victims once they are out of the car. That scenario makes sense to me
Most likely explanation in my opinion.
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Re: BULLETS
by Quicktrader » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:25 pm
Royce:
A Royce mentions that a Mrs. Jean (?) had mentioned that she knows about who did the killing (p. 60).
Mrs. Jean:
Mrs. Jean states that her children had named a 'Gary' having committed the crime. A 'Gary' with almost identical name had been stopped at the BRS scene only a few months later (p. 61).
Mrs. Peggie Your:
Her clock was about seven minutes fast. They got off Highway #21, which is probably meant to be the former California State Route 21 with an exit to Lake Herman Road, at approximately 11:00 PM. So in fact they arrived there at 10:53 PM, passing the scene probably EARLIER than 11:00 PM. Nevertheless, she saw the Rambler parked towards the fence. This might but must not be contradictory to the statement of the two racoon hunters as they insisted that the car was on the 'bank' when they passed by. If the racoon hunters left the Marshall Ranch gate earlier, too, the time of the Yours as well as Connely and Gasser passing by could actually have been before 11:10 PM. Only a few minutes later, the two racoon hunters pass the scene. It further is possible that Owen drove from his home in less than 20 minutes, e.g. 17 instead of 19, and would then have passed the scene at 11:12 PM to 11:13 PM, hearing the shot. Only one or two minutes later, Mrs. Borges passes by and finds the Jensen and Faraday lying on the ground. Overall, Owen can be placed at the scene rather in a two minute window than in a six minute window. If actually Owen or the racoon hunters did pass the scene first is a question that still remains to be open. Mrs. Your further stated a few days later, that she talked to three juveniles at Mr. Ed's who actually had claimed to having seen a car speeding with 90 mph towards Vallejo. This possibly was Mrs. Borges on her way to the police station. So according to Mrs. Your, there were three more kids in the area of Lake Herman during that night (possibly Darlene Ferrin?; p. 64). This is interesting as there obviously have been three additional witnesses at LHR that night (p. 63, 64, 75, 76).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California ... oute_21#21)
Mr. Othis:
According to him, Mr. & Mrs. Burton, Ricky, Donald & Jewel as well their children Diane and Larry and Larry's wife Jannette were - including him and his son Ricky - at the Burton's house. When he left at around 10:45 PM to 10:55 PM, Mr. Othis mentions that only Mrs. Burton, Ricky, Larry, Jannette and Diane were still there. So the party started with 10 (!) people and ended with five people. According to him, the parents of Larry and Jannette had left earlier or are at least not mentioned in his police report.
Conclusion:
- Mr. Owen was at the crime scene at about the time the shooting happened
- Mr. & Mrs. Your as well as the racoon hunters passed the scene earlier than Mrs. Borges
- Mrs. Your states that there were possibly three additional witnesses in the area of Lake Herman Road
- A 'Pete' as well as a 'Gary' as well as a 'Rat' (Vallejo High school) might be possible persons of interest
- Multiple cars have been at LHR road, still to be analyzed, e.g. the brand new, foreign brand car
- The Faraday/Jensen Rampler possibly had moved before they got killed. Also they might have left the car and is there one sketch with a phone booth drawn in)
- Mrs. Yours statement is not necessarily contradictory to the racoon hunters' statement if 'on the bank' could mean 'towards the field'
- Helen's statement is coinciding with the statement of Mrs. Yours, regarding that she saw the car parked to the gate at around 10:15 PM. Bingo Wesher had not seen the Rambler at 10:00 PM (same gate?)
- Ricky Allen and especially his brother-in-law possibly had a motive (drugs, love & rock'n'roll) as well as access to various cars
- It remains unclear if Mr. Owen or the racoon hunters had passed the scene first.
There is no proof, even regarding the two minute time gap, that either Ricky, Owen, the Yours or one of the racoon hunters had committed the crime. Persons of interest however are:
Ricky - Contradictory statements (compared to his mother!), possibly a prowler, threatening Betty Lou, not having a water-tight but still an alibi, locker note of Betty Lou
Pete - Having access to both, a blue and a maroon car, similar to those seen at the scene. Further he owned a knife as well as a weapon.
Racoon Hunters - Possibly the last persons at the crime scene, had fired a shot shortly to or around the time of the murder
Rat - Tried to sell Larry a weapon and actually had fired a shot into a residence, too.
Owen - Possibly the last person at the crime scene but actually had no motive (not even hunting) and was willing to help the police although he was not required to
Ricky's brother-in-law - Possibly not only brother-in-law but also brother-in-crime, had access to a blue car with its paint coming off
Mr. & Mrs. Your - Different statements regarding the racoon hunters, weapon on their backseat although driving with their children, had no reason to stop at Marshall Ranch
Actually the Yours I'd rather rule out to having committed the crime (at least alone). The racoon hunters had definitely passed the scene later than the Yours, so they would have already seen the bodies, or actually were a.) involved in the crime or b.) passed by similar to the Yours without having seen something. Another point, however, is that in one of the police reports it is mentioned that Mrs. Yours did not tell the racoon hunters that the Yours' gun is bigger than theirs. So this might have been stated by one of the racoon hunters.
It furthermore is unclear if the blue car standing by the 'guard' with its driver actually being talking to him is either
a.) uninvolved
b.) the car of the Yours, taking the racoon hunter as a guard
c.) Pete's blue
d.) the Ricky's brother-in-law's blue car with the paint coming off
e.) the Olds' 2-door, blue H.T. 88 (Don) car that Stan had mentioned with two people inside, heading off to BRS at 10:30 PM
f.) the Robert Compls blue car of the prowler
Only if 'Pete' is identical with Ricky's brother-in-law (and possibly even the ex friend of Mrs. Compl), it would in fact create a rock-solid suspect.
And now here comes the most interesting part of all:
If most of the statements made by the witnesses are true, then we should look at the Yours statements again. Because if they had seen two people inside the red pick-up, one (the younger, exiting and seconds later standing by the pick-up) and another one (the older, exiting and possibly him shining to the Yours' car), Mrs. Yours statement - if true - becomes very important:
She mentioned a man in dark clothing standing next to the your's car. It is possible that her statement was made as good as she could - seeing two men AND a man in dark clothing. This man, she said, did not move nor talk nor point the gun at them - he just kept staring at her. This man must not necessarily be one of the hunters. She then mentioned to her husband to leave, which he actually did. It is therefore possible, that neither one of the hunters nor her husband had seen this man.
Also it is not stated that Mrs. Your meant this man to be one of the two hunters. Also a number of people she had seen is not mentioned in the police report. Although still some speculation in it, I think it therefore is absolutely possible that Mrs. Your saw this man and even gave it to protocol. With a blue car standing nearby, the driver waiting, it is therefore possible that a man (e.g. Zodiac) was walking from exactly this car to the crime scene, with the intention to keep the car away from the scene.
This person eventually was irritated by the confrontation with the Yours and therefore walked back to the car. However the crime was committed and therefore both supects (Pete and Rat? Brother-in-law and Ricky?) drove with their (dark) car to the scene instead of one person walking there alone. The passengers of the car then confronted David & Betty Lou, who possibly had waited for them to come (phone booth, call at Ricky's house) and had exited their Rambler.
It is unknown if they all had left, e.g. for a fight, drug deal or prostitution, over the fence or if they had hidden behind the cars.
The passenger of the dark/blue car, however, having already exited on the passengers' side or coming back from the fence, then fired his first shot, two more shots to come into the car to stop David and Betty Lou from fleeing. After talking to David at gunpoint, he shoots him at point-blank. Betty Lou, freaking out completely and trying to run away, gets five more bullets into her back.
It's not the easiest stuff, but according to the police reports it appears to me to be the most feasible version of what had happened during that night.
QT
A Royce mentions that a Mrs. Jean (?) had mentioned that she knows about who did the killing (p. 60).
Mrs. Jean:
Mrs. Jean states that her children had named a 'Gary' having committed the crime. A 'Gary' with almost identical name had been stopped at the BRS scene only a few months later (p. 61).
Mrs. Peggie Your:
Her clock was about seven minutes fast. They got off Highway #21, which is probably meant to be the former California State Route 21 with an exit to Lake Herman Road, at approximately 11:00 PM. So in fact they arrived there at 10:53 PM, passing the scene probably EARLIER than 11:00 PM. Nevertheless, she saw the Rambler parked towards the fence. This might but must not be contradictory to the statement of the two racoon hunters as they insisted that the car was on the 'bank' when they passed by. If the racoon hunters left the Marshall Ranch gate earlier, too, the time of the Yours as well as Connely and Gasser passing by could actually have been before 11:10 PM. Only a few minutes later, the two racoon hunters pass the scene. It further is possible that Owen drove from his home in less than 20 minutes, e.g. 17 instead of 19, and would then have passed the scene at 11:12 PM to 11:13 PM, hearing the shot. Only one or two minutes later, Mrs. Borges passes by and finds the Jensen and Faraday lying on the ground. Overall, Owen can be placed at the scene rather in a two minute window than in a six minute window. If actually Owen or the racoon hunters did pass the scene first is a question that still remains to be open. Mrs. Your further stated a few days later, that she talked to three juveniles at Mr. Ed's who actually had claimed to having seen a car speeding with 90 mph towards Vallejo. This possibly was Mrs. Borges on her way to the police station. So according to Mrs. Your, there were three more kids in the area of Lake Herman during that night (possibly Darlene Ferrin?; p. 64). This is interesting as there obviously have been three additional witnesses at LHR that night (p. 63, 64, 75, 76).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California ... oute_21#21)
Mr. Othis:
According to him, Mr. & Mrs. Burton, Ricky, Donald & Jewel as well their children Diane and Larry and Larry's wife Jannette were - including him and his son Ricky - at the Burton's house. When he left at around 10:45 PM to 10:55 PM, Mr. Othis mentions that only Mrs. Burton, Ricky, Larry, Jannette and Diane were still there. So the party started with 10 (!) people and ended with five people. According to him, the parents of Larry and Jannette had left earlier or are at least not mentioned in his police report.
Conclusion:
- Mr. Owen was at the crime scene at about the time the shooting happened
- Mr. & Mrs. Your as well as the racoon hunters passed the scene earlier than Mrs. Borges
- Mrs. Your states that there were possibly three additional witnesses in the area of Lake Herman Road
- A 'Pete' as well as a 'Gary' as well as a 'Rat' (Vallejo High school) might be possible persons of interest
- Multiple cars have been at LHR road, still to be analyzed, e.g. the brand new, foreign brand car
- The Faraday/Jensen Rampler possibly had moved before they got killed. Also they might have left the car and is there one sketch with a phone booth drawn in)
- Mrs. Yours statement is not necessarily contradictory to the racoon hunters' statement if 'on the bank' could mean 'towards the field'
- Helen's statement is coinciding with the statement of Mrs. Yours, regarding that she saw the car parked to the gate at around 10:15 PM. Bingo Wesher had not seen the Rambler at 10:00 PM (same gate?)
- Ricky Allen and especially his brother-in-law possibly had a motive (drugs, love & rock'n'roll) as well as access to various cars
- It remains unclear if Mr. Owen or the racoon hunters had passed the scene first.
There is no proof, even regarding the two minute time gap, that either Ricky, Owen, the Yours or one of the racoon hunters had committed the crime. Persons of interest however are:
Ricky - Contradictory statements (compared to his mother!), possibly a prowler, threatening Betty Lou, not having a water-tight but still an alibi, locker note of Betty Lou
Pete - Having access to both, a blue and a maroon car, similar to those seen at the scene. Further he owned a knife as well as a weapon.
Racoon Hunters - Possibly the last persons at the crime scene, had fired a shot shortly to or around the time of the murder
Rat - Tried to sell Larry a weapon and actually had fired a shot into a residence, too.
Owen - Possibly the last person at the crime scene but actually had no motive (not even hunting) and was willing to help the police although he was not required to
Ricky's brother-in-law - Possibly not only brother-in-law but also brother-in-crime, had access to a blue car with its paint coming off
Mr. & Mrs. Your - Different statements regarding the racoon hunters, weapon on their backseat although driving with their children, had no reason to stop at Marshall Ranch
Actually the Yours I'd rather rule out to having committed the crime (at least alone). The racoon hunters had definitely passed the scene later than the Yours, so they would have already seen the bodies, or actually were a.) involved in the crime or b.) passed by similar to the Yours without having seen something. Another point, however, is that in one of the police reports it is mentioned that Mrs. Yours did not tell the racoon hunters that the Yours' gun is bigger than theirs. So this might have been stated by one of the racoon hunters.
It furthermore is unclear if the blue car standing by the 'guard' with its driver actually being talking to him is either
a.) uninvolved
b.) the car of the Yours, taking the racoon hunter as a guard
c.) Pete's blue
d.) the Ricky's brother-in-law's blue car with the paint coming off
e.) the Olds' 2-door, blue H.T. 88 (Don) car that Stan had mentioned with two people inside, heading off to BRS at 10:30 PM
f.) the Robert Compls blue car of the prowler
Only if 'Pete' is identical with Ricky's brother-in-law (and possibly even the ex friend of Mrs. Compl), it would in fact create a rock-solid suspect.
And now here comes the most interesting part of all:
If most of the statements made by the witnesses are true, then we should look at the Yours statements again. Because if they had seen two people inside the red pick-up, one (the younger, exiting and seconds later standing by the pick-up) and another one (the older, exiting and possibly him shining to the Yours' car), Mrs. Yours statement - if true - becomes very important:
She mentioned a man in dark clothing standing next to the your's car. It is possible that her statement was made as good as she could - seeing two men AND a man in dark clothing. This man, she said, did not move nor talk nor point the gun at them - he just kept staring at her. This man must not necessarily be one of the hunters. She then mentioned to her husband to leave, which he actually did. It is therefore possible, that neither one of the hunters nor her husband had seen this man.
Also it is not stated that Mrs. Your meant this man to be one of the two hunters. Also a number of people she had seen is not mentioned in the police report. Although still some speculation in it, I think it therefore is absolutely possible that Mrs. Your saw this man and even gave it to protocol. With a blue car standing nearby, the driver waiting, it is therefore possible that a man (e.g. Zodiac) was walking from exactly this car to the crime scene, with the intention to keep the car away from the scene.
This person eventually was irritated by the confrontation with the Yours and therefore walked back to the car. However the crime was committed and therefore both supects (Pete and Rat? Brother-in-law and Ricky?) drove with their (dark) car to the scene instead of one person walking there alone. The passengers of the car then confronted David & Betty Lou, who possibly had waited for them to come (phone booth, call at Ricky's house) and had exited their Rambler.
It is unknown if they all had left, e.g. for a fight, drug deal or prostitution, over the fence or if they had hidden behind the cars.
The passenger of the dark/blue car, however, having already exited on the passengers' side or coming back from the fence, then fired his first shot, two more shots to come into the car to stop David and Betty Lou from fleeing. After talking to David at gunpoint, he shoots him at point-blank. Betty Lou, freaking out completely and trying to run away, gets five more bullets into her back.
It's not the easiest stuff, but according to the police reports it appears to me to be the most feasible version of what had happened during that night.
QT
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Re: BULLETS
by Quicktrader » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:27 pm
morf13 wrote:Quicktrader wrote:Mr. Owen:
It was found out that Mr. Owen's clock went about 5 minutes fast. He therefore arrived at the scene at approximately 11:15 PM, narrowing the time for Zodiac to commit the crime actually to -2 minutes instead of +6 or 7 minutes. This makes him a suspect or at least a POI. It takes him about 19 minutes to drive from his home to the scene, so if his cuckoo clock was at 11:00 PM (actually 10:55 PM) when he actually had left, he even was there at 11:14 PM. Stella Borges arrived at about 11:12 PM and already found the bodies. However there are still two scenarios: First we don't know when Stella Borges did really arrive..somewhere it is written that she had arrived at the police station at 11:25 PM and possibly it takes her only five minutes to get there. It therefore is possible that she took longer than expected as we don't know if she had phoned before or after she had looked at her clock. The second scenario is that Owen had actually seen the bodies and passed by because he was afraid of reporting it to the police. The next day, realizing what he had done and reading about it in the newspaper, he decided to go to police telling them that he had heard a shot. It is even possible that he saw Zodiac committing the crime and is or was fearing for his life (p. 23).
QT
What site is this from???
Which part do you actually mean? 11:25 PM arrival time as well as the 19 minutes as well as the cuckoo clock going five minutes fast is actually from he police reports. Parts of it can be found on zodiackiller, but more stuff available on zodiackillerfacts as well as other sites I guess.
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Re: BULLETS
by morf13 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:06 pm
I was curious what you were referring to such as p.23,looks like you are referencing a page#, etc
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
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Re: BULLETS
by Quicktrader » Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:39 am
Yes, indeed on Zodiackillerfacts the files are numbered but not necessarily in an order? If you move with your mouse above the thumb pics, it'll show the numbers I think. It was the second page of James A. Owen's police report on 12/24/68. Owen, btw, did see a car driving to the opposite direction (possibly the racoon hunters?).
Could anybody help with a map or sort of something where the Borges, the Dotta and the Marshall Ranch is actually located?
And do we know for sure if the attack site was the entrance to the pumping station or rather the entrance to the police shooting range? Because the sketches show a U-type Lake Herman Road which actually would be the police shooting range entrance rather than Reservoir Road/Pumping station..
http://www.devilshopyard.com/lakeherman.html
http://zodiacrevisited.com/lake-herman- ... ime-scene/
As a non-Vallejoian I got no idea where those placese actually are..actually Dotta Ranch and the ways of Owen drove is a bit unclear (now). Also the Gasser ranch..the red pick-up truck could have been driving West, therefore been seen by Owen.
It should also be mentioned that Owen I think saw the Rambler at the 'gravel pull-off', however the gravel pull-off is not identical to the crime scene, imo.
Updated: The refinery was later bought by Valero and is East of Lake Herman Road and old Hwy 21
http://www.ci.benicia.ca.us/vertical/si ... 3D6%7D.PDF
Think we should also discuss the possibility that the assailant(s) came from either the Benicia police shooting range (exiting the gate) or the Dotta ranch..and another point: How is it possible to hunt racoons at night, without having a flashlight attached to the gun? Robert Connely is named 'Bob' in one of the police reports and I think it was Brenda who had mentioned that Betty Lou went with a 'Bob' before she hang around with Rick and later dated David..so if he is the same 'Bob', he even might have had a motive..
QT
Could anybody help with a map or sort of something where the Borges, the Dotta and the Marshall Ranch is actually located?
And do we know for sure if the attack site was the entrance to the pumping station or rather the entrance to the police shooting range? Because the sketches show a U-type Lake Herman Road which actually would be the police shooting range entrance rather than Reservoir Road/Pumping station..
http://www.devilshopyard.com/lakeherman.html
http://zodiacrevisited.com/lake-herman- ... ime-scene/
As a non-Vallejoian I got no idea where those placese actually are..actually Dotta Ranch and the ways of Owen drove is a bit unclear (now). Also the Gasser ranch..the red pick-up truck could have been driving West, therefore been seen by Owen.
It should also be mentioned that Owen I think saw the Rambler at the 'gravel pull-off', however the gravel pull-off is not identical to the crime scene, imo.
Updated: The refinery was later bought by Valero and is East of Lake Herman Road and old Hwy 21
http://www.ci.benicia.ca.us/vertical/si ... 3D6%7D.PDF
Think we should also discuss the possibility that the assailant(s) came from either the Benicia police shooting range (exiting the gate) or the Dotta ranch..and another point: How is it possible to hunt racoons at night, without having a flashlight attached to the gun? Robert Connely is named 'Bob' in one of the police reports and I think it was Brenda who had mentioned that Betty Lou went with a 'Bob' before she hang around with Rick and later dated David..so if he is the same 'Bob', he even might have had a motive..
QT
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Last edited by Quicktrader on Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:43 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: BULLETS
by BuckwheatFlowers » Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:26 am
Entrance to the pump station is the same as the crime scene. I'm not sure about Dotta Ranch, but figured it to be slightly west of crime scene on south side of road (speculation) and "Old Borgess Ranch" (Bingo Wesher) to be the area you have marked "dotta ranch". This should have been done (and probably has) by someone long ago and should be easily accessible on every zodiac site on the internet. I think you have the right spot marked for the Marshall ranch.
Owen was driving west to east on his way to work. Direction shown on first few pages of police report in sketch. Ranchers should have been heading west to east as Gassers ranch was on rt. 21 on the east end of LHR. Stella was heading west to east to Benicia, as well.
Hope that helps, some.
Owen was driving west to east on his way to work. Direction shown on first few pages of police report in sketch. Ranchers should have been heading west to east as Gassers ranch was on rt. 21 on the east end of LHR. Stella was heading west to east to Benicia, as well.
Hope that helps, some.
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Re: BULLETS
by Quicktrader » Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:16 am
BuckwheatFlowers wrote:Entrance to the pump station is the same as the crime scene. I'm not sure about Dotta Ranch, but figured it to be slightly west of crime scene on south side of road (speculation) and "Old Borgess Ranch" (Bingo Wesher) to be the area you have marked "dotta ranch". This should have been done (and probably has) by someone long ago and should be easily accessible on every zodiac site on the internet. I think you have the right spot marked for the Marshall ranch.
Owen was driving west to east on his way to work. Direction shown on first few pages of police report in sketch. Ranchers should have been heading west to east as Gassers ranch was on rt. 21 on the east end of LHR. Stella was heading west to east to Benicia, as well.
Hope that helps, some.
Hm...but didn't she have a call at home just before she found the bodies? Is the Borges ranch correct in the map? Thanks for the hint regarding Gassers ranch..
QT
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Re: BULLETS
by BuckwheatFlowers » Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:31 am
Quicktrader wrote:Hm...but didn't she have a call at home just before she found the bodies? Is the Borges ranch correct in the map? Thanks for the hint regarding Gassers ranch..
QT
No, it's not in the correct loactaion. It was supposed to be located 2.7 miles from the scene on LHR. She had to drive to pick up her son in Benicia. The only way to do that is if she lived West of the crime scene. 2.7 miles puts its location by the quarry at the western end of LHR. There are no houses in that exact vicinity. However, if you read my post on page 5 of this thread, there is a picture of a man standing in front of what he says is his Aunt Stella Borgess' ranch house.... the problem with that is that the house is 1.6 or 1.7 miles west of the crime scene, not 2.7 miles that is stated in the police report.
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Re: BULLETS
by Quicktrader » Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:45 pm
Ok, so I updated the direction that Mrs. Borges/Medeiros had driven to..the scene and some of the ranches are therefore still not located 100% yet. Maybe any Vallejoan can help with it?
This one could've been one of the hunters..however in 1967, two years earlier.
QT
This one could've been one of the hunters..however in 1967, two years earlier.
QT
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