BULLETS

[BuckwheatFlowers]

What about Pierre Bidou? Did he pass the crime scene like he claims, and see nothing on the way back from a drug bust?

Anyone have any newspaper clippings on the drug bust?

There was a drug bust that night, right? One with a whole bunch of weed, for that point in time?

Surely (don't call me Shirley) that would have made the papers.

[BuckwheatFlowers]

Was the Borges house 2.7 miles from the crime scene?

I thought maybe I cleared that up. Maybe that guy I posted about was a liar and that wasn't where the houses were located.

[BuckwheatFlowers]

Let's assume that none of this witnesses is lying: Then either the time of Stella Borges or the time of Peggie and Homer Your is simply wrong. This could have happened accidentially or by purpose.

They were both off. Their clocks were wrong. Peggy was off by 7 minutes(page 27 of police report on TV's site). Stella by 1minute(page 19 of police report on TV's site).

[Quicktrader]

I will check the times and accuracy of the clocks later tonight. Off the top of my head, Owen assumed he left at 11:00, but really left at 10:55 since the clock he was going by was 5 minutes fast. Borges clock was found to be 1 or 3 minutes fast(forget off the top of my head),so she left 1-3 minutes sooner than she thought. The hunters, I agree, likely left at about 11:08-11:12, remember, they sat in their truck for a few minutes waiting for it to warm up before they left. I tend to think it was likely 11:08-11:10

Break these times down:

11:08-11:10, Hunters leave

11:14(if Owen is telling the truth)he passes the scene

11:14-11:20,Borges find the bodies.

For these times above, that's why Owen is such an interesting person of interest. Zodiac would have had to miracled his way next to the Rambler just after the hunters left,and before Owen got there. Then,he miracled his way out of there just after Owen left,and Borges found the bodies. The timing is so,so tight,andZ would have had to be extremely lucky. Again,it's a wonder that either Owen(if he was not zodiac)or Borges did not happen to pass by as Zodiac was shooting the couple.

Borges is the most interesting of all witnesses perhaps, because she was confident what time she left her house. The crime scene is 2&7/10 miles from her house,so at the speed she was driving, she knew what time she would have passed the scene. On top of that, her clock was fast, and she really got there earlier. I think it's possible,she just missed, within seconds, Zodiac exiting. The reason they think she must have really got to the scene a full 5-6 minutes later than she thought,was because she supposedly made contact with Pitta at 11:25,after driving at high speed, and when police went back to the scene driving at high speed,it took 5 minutes,so they assumed she had found the bodies 5 minutes before at 11:20. That's where some of the confusion came in. But I wonder, cops racing back to the scene may have driven faster back to the scene then Borges drove away from the scene to find them.

She said that Betty was ON HER SIDE when she saw her. Zodiac said that Betty was ON HER SIDE in his letter. When cops got back to the scene, Betty was FACE DOWN. I am no forensic or medical expert, but the only thing I can think of is that after she was shot,she wound up lying on her side, and she died after Borges went for help,falling over face down.

Those police reports really have a huge potential to find suspects..

Peggie Your about the red pick-up truck (racoon hunters):
'When they turned around into the Marshall Ranch, Mrs. Your reports they saw a red pick-up truck with wooden board sides parked in the field about twentyfive feet in. At this time the car was facing out to the road. She stated there were two white male adults in the car, one of them was twenty-five to thirty years old, and had a stocking type hat or cap over his head, a three-cell flashlight and a hunting jacket. Mrs. Your reports that they did not pass any other car at the area and only the station wagon was parked at the Pumping Station entrance.'
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR12.html

Then she states to having seen Jensen/Faraday's Rambler with the front end heading East. This, btw, is not the crime scene, imo. The pump station should be near Water Way, east of Reservoir Road, while the U-type road on the scene sketch, with its fence, looks rather to be going towards the police shooting range. But anyway, she states that she saw two Caucasians, one starting to sit upright / putting his hands on the steering wheel as they drove by. But now:

'She states her husband drove on to the bottom of the hill and turned into the road way on the right side, going into the Marshall Ranch. She states as the car got to the gate, she saw a tall WMA approximately 28 years dressed in dark clothing, standing by the gate on her husbands side of the car (the left side) approximately six feet from the car. He had a gun in his hand, it had a long barrel. A red pick-up truck with white wooden sides was parked about 40 feet ahead of their car. She stated a WMA who appeared to be an old man got out of the truck and shined a flash light into their car.'
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR16.html

Can you see?

In one statement, she claims that two men were sitting in the car. And in the other one, he is standing 40 feet away from his red pick-up truck, right next to their car.

This certainly doesn't fit together.

QT

[morf13]

The reports are written in a confusing way. The two caucasions she saw in the car were Faraday & Jensen. The guys with the guns,the two man,were Gasser & Connelly, the racoon hunters

[Quicktrader]

The 'two Caucasians' are mentioned twice. Once by William about the passengers of the blue Valiant (or similar), and a second time by Peggie Your about Jensen Faraday. In her police reports, however, she refers twice to the red pick-up truck. It is only in the last sentence of the previously posted (first) passage that no other cars had passed and that the Jensen/Faraday Rambler was still at the same spot.

But with regard to the red pick-up truck she obviously stated:

'When they turned around into the Marshall Ranch, Mrs. Your reports they (!) saw a red pick-up truck... She stated there were two white male adults in the car.'

In the car. And in the second part of the police report:

'She states her husband drove...into the road way on the right side, going into the Marshall Ranch. She states as the car got to the gate, she saw a tall WMA approximately 28 years dressed in dark clothing, standing by the gate on her husbands side of the car (the left side) approximately six feet from the car... A red pick-up truck...was parked about 40 feet ahead of their car...'

40 feet ahead. This is a discrepancy.

Either Gassner/Connoly were in the car, 40 feet ahead, or one of them was standing next to her husband, only six feet away, 'as the car got to the gate'. Both together doesn't match.

Except if there was a third person, but she did not mention them to be three. So either she is lying or the police officer made an error. But actually I think he did not, because Peggie Your states that only one (!) person had left the car:

'She stated a WMA who appeared to be an old man got out of the truck and shined a flash light into their car.'

It could be that there was just a misunderstanding ('in' or 'at' the car). The first one mentions only briefly that the two men were in the car. Nevertheless she was able to give a description of his clothing etc..so I rather believe the second story is what actually happened.

It appears as if the racoon hunter was still at his car when Homer saw him and was already close to the gate when Peggie saw him. The older one then got out of his truck.

Homer Your in fact might have seen it right:
'...a red pick up truck that had wooden sides. A man was by the truck, he shined his flashlight into the Your car.'

He did not mention the second man leaving the car. Or did he not differ between the two racoon hunters? But he sees a man standing by the car. The second hunter exits the car, but Homer does not mention it or at least it is not written in the report. According to him, the man standing by the car shines his flashlight into their car.

Again, a discrepancy: He sees only one man by the truck. This man had a flashlight and did Peggie describe the younger racoon hunter having a flashlight and a gun.

Wild west games. Racoon hunter walk to the gate to open it. The Yours arrive, both see the truck. The younger racoon hunter exits or has already exited the pick-up truck, stands with the gun and shines his flash light into the car.

Another discrepancy:
In the report on page 16, she mentions that the younger racoon hunter (28 yrs.) stood next to her husbands side of the car. 'He had a gun'. Later she states that an old man got out of the truck and shined a flash light into their car.

In the report on page 12, she mentions that one of them was 25-30 years old and had a ... three cell flashlight and a hunting jacket.

So the only possibility is that both were inside the truck, then the younger left the truck with his gun but gave the flash light to his older hunting companion. He gets out of the car (therefore Peggie Your's statement is still FALSE as she was the one who mentioned that there was already a man standing with his gun close to the gate!) and walks with his gun towards the gate. The older racoon hunter exits the car, shines into the car, and the Yours leave the scene.

It is impossible to combine: The younger man was standing with his flashlight close by the gate or he was inside the car with the possibility to give the flashlight to his companion.

The older man did have a flashlight to shine into their car or he did not. Or both of them had flashlights, but then the Yours did not mention.

Or according to Homer, the man standing by the car had a flashlight, but then he was not close to the gate when the Yours arrived.

Discrepancies. Or one of them has never been at the scene. But the flashlight cannot be with the younger hunter (Peggie Your) standing next to the gate and with the older hunter who exited the car (Peggie Your) at the same time.

And if the younger hunter had the flashlight, he was not sitting in the car when Homer saw him shining the flashlight into their car.

Not to forget that the Yours were connected to Mr. Ed's diner, too.

She mentions to leave, the racoon hunters just stare at them. Only 1-5 minutes later, after driving the car out of Marshall's property, they close the gate and leave the scene.

I don't know what's going on there, but Peggie Your's statement can impossibly be correct. A reason could be that there were three months between the two police reports (one made in March 69', the other one in December '68).

But I think there is enough inaccuracies to reinvestigate the Yours as well as Ricky Allen Burton to get additional information. 'Checking the pipes', by the way, is the most suspicious part of it (dirrty, dirrty..and they even had their children with them..).

QT

[traveller1st]

Ok enough.

You don't think that Zodiac couldn't operate within such a small window? Then I'm sorry, you just don't get what we are capable of. Look at the san diego bank robberies in the early 90's concerning the suspect 'Hollywood'. Right to the bitter end this guy was a ghost. Even escaping the FBI when they were sure they had him, during a shootout.

It's not always so cut and dried. And you have to remember that Zodiac most likely knew that. He was operating on a level where he felt secure. In regard the san diego crimes. At one point LE were suspecting that it was one of their own. In the end he turned out to be an actor. Complete with stage makeup.

[Quicktrader]

Ok enough.

You don't think that Zodiac couldn't operate within such a small window? Then I'm sorry, you just don't get what we are capable of. Look at the san diego bank robberies in the early 90's concerning the suspect 'Hollywood'. Right to the bitter end this guy was a ghost. Even escaping the FBI when they were sure they had him, during a shootout.

It's not always so cut and dried. And you have to remember that Zodiac most likely knew that. He was operating on a level where he felt secure. In regard the san diego crimes. At one point LE were suspecting that it was one of their own. In the end he turned out to be an actor. Complete with stage makeup.

Personally I do think Z did stop there for only 2-4 minutes. Enough to get out of the car, start shooting, walk around his car, force them to get out (why passenger side??), shoot David and Betty Lou (why Owen hearing only one shot?) and getting the hell out of there. Then driving Lake Herman, turning right to the North or heading towards Benicia. The times are inaccurate and at least two police reports include lies or inaccuracies for sure (Ricky Burton and Peggy Your).

Without additional reports (e.g. as mention in the list), for example from the guard of Humble Oil company, or additional witness information (re-investigation) this crime will not be solved only by those reports, imo.

And finally we got at least 2-3 people carrying weapons up there during that night (Yours, Gasser/Connely) and or including them - Zodiac. Possibly also Owen had a gun. Unsolvable without additional information, imo.

QT

[traveller1st]

Soz,

I don't mean to be disrespectful to the opinions offered. I just wanted to sound dramatic lol. I'm a fool , I admit it, Still, look into the process that the Hollywood crimes offer. I found them insightful and candid and possibly relevant?

[Quicktrader]

Huhuuh...and I got another question:

Why did Peggie and Homer Your actually stop at the gate of Marshall's ranch at all?

Checking the pipes you wouldn't do there, would you? With the kids in the car, there is no reason to stop for lovers' lane issues..so why did they stop there? No pipes there either..

QT