BULLETS

Discussion of Zodiac Victims David Faraday & Betty Lou Jensen

BULLETS

Postby Quicktrader » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:04 pm

I wonder about some issues relating the bullets..

One shell was found as if it had been fired from a second car's passenger side, or IF STANDING A BIT MORE AWAY from the driver's side (shot WHILE ASSAILANT WAS standing as it went downwards)..so far...however two bullets had entered the Rambler: One into the roof above the Rambler's passenger door, the other one into the rear window. So one bullet must have been shot at closer range, likely the one closer to where Faraday was killed just seconds later.

Another point: On http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/galler ... p?album=66
you clearly can see deep tracks in the earth, while there is another pic without such tracks. Was one pic made after it had rained? Or on a different day?

Killer was quite close to his victims..why did he kill Faraday at close range..why didn't he simply continue to fire into the car? Was he communicating with his victims and if so - why? Did he know them? Or at least one of them?

Who was shot first, if it may be assumed that David stood and died at the passenger's side of the Rambler? Why did Z force them to get out of the car? And, finally, did Jensen first walk around the Rambler before ending up on the floor? The shots fired into her body indicate close range but the shells were found close to David, so did he die first? Had Z to drive around Jensen's body? If so, how did the deeper tracks get into the ground..?

And, wheather must have been quite cold on that day, with Faraday being prepared for it - nit so Jensen with her short dress. Was drugs or prostitution involved, without blaming anybody for it?

A last point: The bullet above the passenger door did not enter horizontally, rather seems to have entered from top or downside.. why? If Z stood next to Faraday, later shooting him there...did he aim from head's level? Forcing David to talk about something?

I just wonder.

QT
Last edited by Quicktrader on Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby Nachtsider » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:26 am

The way I see things unfold is as follows.

Zodiac pulls up, gets out of his car and starts firing at the Rambler in an attempt to force Betty and David out. They scramble out of the car through the passenger side door. Zodiac runs around the Rambler to get at them, at which point David tries to rush him. Zodiac overpowers David, grabs him in a headlock and fires at Betty as she flees. He misses initially due to David's struggling, but his next few shots hit Betty in the back and she falls, wounded. Zodiac shoots David through the head, drops him on the ground and fires at Betty several more times before fleeing.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby Tahoe27 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:40 am

Considering the way David fell, I always assumed he was shot first with his back towards the perp. This made Betty Lou run and most of the shot were fired while the killer was right there. This being why at least one shot penetrated Betty Lou.

The cops say the ground was frozen and there were no fresh tires tracks. Those tracks shown in the photos must have been old. ?
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Re: BULLETS

Postby Welsh Chappie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:39 pm

Zodiac pulling up in his vehicle, exiting and opening fire. Shots fired from within Zodiac's vehicle.

What amazes me about this incident is how everyone seems to just accept as if it were undeniable fact that Zodiac was even in a car at Lake Herman Road. Now I am not criticising anyone for suggesting theories of Zodiac in relation to his vehicle, like did he fire the first shot from his vehicle, did he get out first then fire one shot etc. Believe me, as a person who has himself put many theories to thread I would not, and could not, be here to criticise.
To use one example then in order to make what I am intending to point out a bit more clear.

When it comes to the Pacific Heights murder of Paul Stine and Don Fouke's encounter, if I were to say something like "Well when Don Fouke encountered Zodiac on Jackson St, he described him as having a receding hair line" I can guarantee that at least two replies would be "How do we know that was even Zodiac? Where is the evidence? Could have been anyone"

Yet, when the subject of Lake Herman Road is brought up, it seems Universally accepted that Z was in a car. Why? Nobody saw a second car pulled up in the entrance to the pumping station except one witness, and he gave two statements in a short period of time and in the first he says a second vehicle was parked almost parallel along side the first, then by the second statement it had moved to being parked almost down the other end of the turn in area.

No vehicles were reported heading away from the scene as approaching police drove the long winding lanes toward it. And we have, in one report, the finding of a boot's imprint in the Earth on the other side of the pumping station fence/barrier.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby Seagull » Tue Nov 19, 2013 7:09 pm

I think it's because of the remoteness of the location that most believe Zodiac had a vehicle. It is not an area that is in close walking distance to anything. It's not an area where you would be taking a midnight stroll. No one was seen walking in the area either.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby Welsh Chappie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:49 pm

Seagull wrote:I think it's because of the remoteness of the location that most believe Zodiac had a vehicle. It is not an area that is in close walking distance to anything. It's not an area where you would be taking a midnight stroll. No one was seen walking in the area either.


Well if he was on foot I doubt he'd walk the actual road, that kinda defeats the purpose and may as well be driving. And yes it is remote, isolated, and one long stretch of winding road... Just the sort that your car would be easily spotted miles down the road due to the dark and long winding quiet roads and the vehicles obvious headlights miles away visible. One long road that for long sections of it offers drivers no turn off roads, so if the police are racing to the scene, your boxed in with nowhere to go.

"It's not in an area close to walking distance or anything?" No? Weren't Betty Lou & David parked in a turning that had a gated section to 'The Pumping Station', the building rite on the other side? Again your assuming Zodiac thinks like you may think, and see it the way you may see it that it's too far out in no mans land and no civilisation is close by. Well, for me and you it would be out of the question to go out there on foot, but I would imagine from his perspective, that would be an ideal location due to him wishing to 'do this thing'.

"It's not an area where you would be taking a midnight stroll." That's true, I wouldn't, nor would you. But we are not psychopathic serial killers who don't think like the rest of us do. I wouldn't waltz onto a lakeshore island dressed in an executioners outfit pointing a pistol at a couple relaxing there either, but Zodiac did.

Anyway Seagull, I am not saying it's more likely he was on foot, I think he probably was in a car so I think you miss the point I am making, that being, it's simply odd that it's assumed he was in a vehicle when several passing motorists went by and only ever saw 1 car, with the exception of one witness who does claim to have seen two but his accounts are inconsistent at best. My point is, it's odd how this is just automatically assumed and accepted without evidence. To say that is isn't the kind of place one would be out walking at especially at midnight, is to assume Zodiac used the same logic and reasoning as a rational man/woman would when making decisions and that is not going to be the casse because if he did, he'd not have turned up at Berryessa like he did, nor executed Stine in the middle of a street where police patrols are likely to e higher then the average street due to where it was.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby pittsburgh_phil » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:45 pm

If I'm not mistaken, Zodiac didn't wear his disguise until hey came upon his two victims at LB. As for Lake Herman Road maybe he parked his car nearby and hoofed it to the crime scene. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=38%C2%B0 ... a&t=h&z=18 even though LHR is remote it wouldn't be that hard of a trek into town, especially if you stashed your car somewhere along the route.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby morf13 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:35 am

Welsh Chappie wrote: What amazes me about this incident is how everyone seems to just accept as if it were undeniable fact that Zodiac was even in a car at Lake Herman Road.


This is taken as Fact, because James Owen says this is what he saw, as he drove by the scene on his way to work. He saw the car pulled in forward side by side nexxt to Faraday's. A few minutes later, Borges found the bodies. Owen basically steered the entire police investigation, and as I have well documented, there are several reasons his account should be questioned and scrutinized.

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Re: BULLETS

Postby Tahoe27 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:49 pm

morf13 wrote:
Welsh Chappie wrote: What amazes me about this incident is how everyone seems to just accept as if it were undeniable fact that Zodiac was even in a car at Lake Herman Road.


This is taken as Fact, because James Owen says this is what he saw, as he drove by the scene on his way to work. He saw the car pulled in forward side by side nexxt to Faraday's. A few minutes later, Borges found the bodies. Owen basically steered the entire police investigation, and as I have well documented, there are several reasons his account should be questioned and scrutinized.


If his account should be questioned and scrutinized (and Owens wasn't their killer) then maybe he is mistaken or lying and we shouldn't take it as fact.

I have no problem thinking their killer could have been on foot. There were too many damn cars and people out there that night...on an isolated road.

I doubt the footprint came that night though. The PD report mentions the ground being too frozen for a tire print, so I think a footprint wouldn't be left either.
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Re: BULLETS

Postby morf13 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:54 pm

Tahoe27 wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Welsh Chappie wrote: What amazes me about this incident is how everyone seems to just accept as if it were undeniable fact that Zodiac was even in a car at Lake Herman Road.


This is taken as Fact, because James Owen says this is what he saw, as he drove by the scene on his way to work. He saw the car pulled in forward side by side nexxt to Faraday's. A few minutes later, Borges found the bodies. Owen basically steered the entire police investigation, and as I have well documented, there are several reasons his account should be questioned and scrutinized.


If his account should be questioned and scrutinized (and Owens wasn't their killer) then maybe he is mistaken or lying and we shouldn't take it as fact.

I have no problem thinking their killer could have been on foot. There were too many damn cars and people out there that night...on an isolated road.

I doubt the footprint came that night though. The PD report mentions the ground being too frozen for a tire print, so I think a footprint wouldn't be left either.


If he's lying, then I have a major issue with that, because one of the reasons to lie could be because he is guilty
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