Ross Sullivan Dissenters thread

[Marshall]

Read the eyewitness descriptions below and tell me who says Z had a crew cut, widows peak, and was 6' 2" and 260+ pounds. Nobody did.

I stand corrected. It would be completely impossible for a human to grow out his hair and apply grease to it.

The girls who helped to produce this sketch described this man to investigators as a white male, between 28-30 years of age, with dark hair that was parted on the left side, at least six feet tall, stocky build, approx. 200 to 225 lbs., with a round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, a medium nose, straight eyebrows and small ears.

How does this eliminate Ross as a possibility?

1. The PH sketch is supposedly a dead-ringer for Ross, right? It is not a sketch of a 28-30 year old man with a round face. Even morf, in the post I quoted, agrees the LB and PH sketches are dissimilar.

2. I suppose we can disagree whether the PH sketch, with a wig or grown-out hair, would be considered "good looking" by two of the girls. If girls would find something like that attractive enough to mention... maybe there's hope for me yet.

3. If Zodiac was going to come up with a disguise for one of his crimes, why do it for LB, when he was going to be wearing a mask anyway? A disguise at Presidio Heights would've made a lot more sense... but that's the facial sketch that you're saying is spot-on to your preferred suspect, meaning, you're not thinking there was disguise in it.

4. Even at 200-225 pounds, you're still about 40 pounds too light, but that's been discussed to death already.

Comparing PH to LB we have one guy had long dark hair, the other had short, light hair. One was at least 6' tall, the other was described as a shorter than average man, at 5' 8 or 5' 9" (which Mike also relates at BRS.) One was 200-225, the other under 200 (with Ross documented as being 260 or better.) At PH Z wore glasses, as did Ross; the girls and Hartnell said the guy at LB did not. The guy at LB was described as being younger than at PH and the sketches also bear that out, as do the voice descriptions from the people who took the phone calls.

Frankly, there is virtually nothing in common between the descriptions that came out of LB and PH.

Paul, can we at least agree that the descriptions and sketch at LB are different enough from PH and BRS that we're probably looking at two different suspects here? Or are you still of the opinion that the suspect described by everyone at LB is the same guy as PH?

[1doctor]

I stand corrected. It would be completely impossible for a human to grow out his hair and apply grease to it.

The girls who helped to produce this sketch described this man to investigators as a white male, between 28-30 years of age, with dark hair that was parted on the left side, at least six feet tall, stocky build, approx. 200 to 225 lbs., with a round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, a medium nose, straight eyebrows and small ears.

How does this eliminate Ross as a possibility?

No one is saying it eliminates him, we're saying it doesn't match him at all.


Here's the parts that don't match

white male, between 28-30 years of age with dark hair that was parted on the left side, at least six feet tall, stocky build, approx. 200 to 225 lbs., with a round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, a medium nose, straight eyebrows and small ears.

[Paul_Averly]

Frankly, there is virtually nothing in common between the descriptions that came out of LB and PH.

Paul, can we at least agree that the descriptions and sketch at LB are different enough from PH and BRS that we're probably looking at two different suspects here? Or are you still of the opinion that the suspect described by everyone at LB is the same guy as PH?

I'm of the opinion that the two suspects are the same person. I agree there are differences in descriptions, but there are also differences in the descriptions of the BRS suspect. Overall the LB and PH (and BRS) share enough similarities: stocky build, round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, medium nose. Really, I'm looking at "stocky white male." There will always be inconsistencies.

So when you go with stocky white male at both PH and LB, and you have writing that matches up very well, I just go with logic and error to the side that it was the same guy.

Was it Ross, I don't know. But I'm not going to eliminate him based on few inch height discrepancy.

[Marshall]

Frankly, there is virtually nothing in common between the descriptions that came out of LB and PH.

Paul, can we at least agree that the descriptions and sketch at LB are different enough from PH and BRS that we're probably looking at two different suspects here? Or are you still of the opinion that the suspect described by everyone at LB is the same guy as PH?

I'm of the opinion that the two suspects are the same person. I agree there are differences in descriptions, but there are also differences in the descriptions of the BRS suspect. Overall the LB and PH (and BRS) share enough similarities: stocky build, round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, medium nose. Really, I'm looking at "stocky white male." There will always be inconsistencies.

The PH sketch does not define a round face or round eyes (I mean... technically everybody has generally round eyes, but I don't think that would describe the PH sketch.) So what you have in common would be: stocky, thin lips, medium nose. Now, does this look like a pair of thin lips? Because if not, you're saying these two suspects are the same based on being stocky with a medium nose. Is that really enough, with everything else being different?

Ross Sullivan 5.jpg

Ross Sullivan 6.jpg

So when you go with stocky white male at both PH and LB, and you have writing that matches up very well, I just go with logic and error to the side that it was the same guy.

You and I certainly define "logic" differently. And as far as writing matching up, I think Manalli's writing has far more similarities than that of any other POI, including the usage of unusual words and phrases. Besides, how much of Ross' writing do we actually have to compare? It's pure speculation to ascribe the Riverside writings inc. desktop to Ross, if that's what you're inferring.

Was it Ross, I don't know. But I'm not going to eliminate him based on few inch height discrepancy.

Well, it's a lot more than that.

[Paul_Averly]

I was referring to the LB car door writing matching the PH writing, meaning the letters with bloody shirt. It doesn't hold any weight to you that it simply could be the same suspect at both scenes?

[Marshall]

I was referring to the LB car door writing matching the PH writing, meaning the letters with bloody shirt. It doesn't hold any weight to you that it simply could be the same suspect at both scenes?

That car door is a tiny writing sample... is that enough to outweigh all the discrepancies in the descriptions? Furthermore, as Tahoe and maybe others have pointed out, the content is wrong. The Dripping Pen card, 11/8/69, says "Dec July Aug Sept Oct = 7" The Bus Bomb letter, mailed a day later, confirms the meaning: "Up to the end of October I have killed 7 people." But the car door, which lists his kills, doesn't mention August... So the letter writer claims August, but the car door writer does not. Why? Well, there was never a kill associated with Z in August, so the LB imposter would not have known the real Z was going to claim August as a kill month. Point is, these two writers were saying very different things just 6 weeks apart, and what, to Z, was more important than his kill count and the effect it had on the public?

Furthermore, the letter writer reminds LE of his Bay Area activities in the Stine letter, but noticeably does not mention LB. Why not claim it, if it was his? What a great opportunity to gloat, to taunt, about his kill in the middle of the day, expanding his territorial reign of terror, etc. Yet... not a peep from letter writer Z. How is this explained?

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Looking at the pictures of Ross, would you describe his lips as "thin?"

[Tahoe27]

Something that has always bothered me about the PH composite is that it looks like skinny, gaunt man. Seems like if one was stocky, with a heavy build, the artist would reflect that.

On a side note, Mike's description and the kids/Fouke in S.F. are almost identical. Not LB.

[Paul_Averly]

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Looking at the pictures of Ross, would you describe his lips as "thin?"

How thin do you need them to be? Have fun trying to clear Ross with lip forensics.

[1doctor]

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Looking at the pictures of Ross, would you describe his lips as "thin?"

How thin do you need them to be? Have fun trying to clear Ross with lip forensics.

So is that a no?

[Marshall]

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Looking at the pictures of Ross, would you describe his lips as "thin?"

How thin do you need them to be? Have fun trying to clear Ross with lip forensics.

Paul, you listed thin lips as one of the ways Ross fit the description. I was, again, pointing out an inaccuracy in your statement.

You said:

The girls who helped to produce this sketch described this man to investigators as a white male, between 28-30 years of age, with dark hair that was parted on the left side, at least six feet tall, stocky build, approx. 200 to 225 lbs., with a round face, rounded eyes, thin lips, a medium nose, straight eyebrows and small ears.

How does this eliminate Ross as a possibility?

Ross did not have long dark hair, he weighed considerably more than 200-225, he did not (in the PH sketch which you think is a good likeness of him) have a round face, round eyes, and he did not have thin lips. We can't tell whether his eyebrows were straight since Ross wore glasses in the pictures we have of him, and the LB suspect did not. So you are left with:

1. White male, right age range
2. At least 6 feet tall
3. Medium nose
4. Small ears

What you don't have is:

1. Wrong hair color and length
2. Wrong weight
3. Wrong facial structure
4. Squinty vs. round eyes
5. Full rather than thin lips
6. A guy who wore glasses vs. one who didn't

The fact you can dismiss all this and continue to believe it's the same guy is... perplexing. I'm going to drop this conversation now. I think you are emotionally attached to your POI here and not willing to admit that a guy cannot change his appearance, from facial structure to eyes to height to weight to lip thickness all within two short weeks. For me to continue to try and reason with you is pointless for me and my intent is not to piss you off, so let's just let it go. I'm into objective reason, you're into defending Ross' viability.

Frankly I'm beginning to see why Jon Sullivan has become non-responsive. He can look at the PH wanted poster, see the description, understand it quite obviously wasn't Ross, and yet, there will be people who will continue to insist it was his brother, seemingly no matter what, dragging his name through the mud possibly indefinitely.