Ross Sullivan Dissenters thread

[1doctor]

The initial thread was starting to turn into a madhouse and I agree with morf that it can evolve off topic real quick. I don't wish to ruffle any feathers in that thread either, so I figure a thread dedicated to dissent would be better than an all out argument in a general thread.

That being said, there seems to be fervent belief that Ross either was Z or wasn't Z. This is for those who believe he wasn't Z, and the rational why.


My analysis is that Ross was too big to be the same man the many other witnesses saw and toomentally ill to function in the same capacity Z did. I also don't believe Ross has any link to Vallejo, that none will ever be found because he was simply never there. I think Z must have some sort of link to Vallejo to know where the lover's lane's were located, as these wouldn't be spots out-of-towners would probably known. While this is a speculative conclusion, I believe it is even more speculative to believe otherwise, that Ross does have a Vallejo connection that we just haven't found yet, or that Ross didn't need a Vallejo connection and somehow randomly found two victims at two separate lover's lane's spots.

I reached my conclusion on Ross being too big by taking the accounts of the witnesses who knew Ross in person. These account's (and more specifically, the information regarding only his weight) are as follows:

1) An unidentified individual interviewed by a private investigator stated the following:

"She did not think it likely that Ross could execute a plan: 'he was so fat as to be passive, and to plan and execute anything seems unlikely' "

(Source: http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... 662#p40038)

2) An unidentified individual interviewed by Mike stated the following:

"'Physically, he said, he thought Ross was less than 300 pounds, maybe more like 250-260, but he said that Ross definitely had a belly or gut."

(Source: http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... =20#p40301)

3) Gerald Kats, who knew Ross Sullivan, stated the following:

"Ross was in his mid 20s and was very big, well over 6 feet tall and more than 250 pounds"

(Source: http://www.servimg.com/view/14945813/3004)

[morf13]

The initial thread was starting to turn into a madhouse and I agree with morf that it can evolve off topic real quick. I don't wish to ruffle any feathers in that thread either, so I figure a thread dedicated to dissent would be better than an all out argument in a general thread.

That being said, there seems to be fervent belief that Ross either was Z or wasn't Z. This is for those who believe he wasn't Z, and the rational why.


My analysis is that Ross was too big to be the same man the many other witnesses saw and toomentally ill to function in the same capacity Z did. I also don't believe Ross has any link to Vallejo, that none will ever be found because he was simply never there. I think Z must have some sort of link to Vallejo to know where the lover's lane's were located, as these wouldn't be spots out-of-towners would probably known. While this is a speculative conclusion, I believe it is even more speculative to believe otherwise, that Ross does have a Vallejo connection that we just haven't found yet, or that Ross didn't need a Vallejo connection and somehow randomly found two victims at two separate lover's lane's spots.

I reached my conclusion on Ross being too big by taking the accounts of the witnesses who knew Ross in person. These account's (and more specifically, the information regarding only his weight) are as follows:

1) An unidentified individual interviewed by a private investigator stated the following:

"She did not think it likely that Ross could execute a plan: 'he was so fat as to be passive, and to plan and execute anything seems unlikely' "

(Source: http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... 662#p40038)

2) An unidentified individual interviewed by Mike stated the following:

"'Physically, he said, he thought Ross was less than 300 pounds, maybe more like 250-260, but he said that Ross definitely had a belly or gut."

(Source: http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtop ... =20#p40301)

3) Gerald Kats, who knew Ross Sullivan, stated the following:

"Ross was in his mid 20s and was very big, well over 6 feet tall and more than 250 pounds"

(Source: http://www.servimg.com/view/14945813/3004)

I'm going to give some thought as to leave this thread up or not. The only reason for a 'PRO' Ross/Zodiac thread, was a place where people wanted to discuss him as a suspect without people sidetracking with their naysaying. However, that doesn't mean there should be an 'anti' Ross thread, as I've never seen an anti Suspect thread on any zodiac site,with the exception of somebody like Stewart & Van Best who are capitalizing on false info, and selling lies to people for profit, those people will be called out.

And for the record, you mentioned some People think Ross is Either Z,or he's not. There are many like myself that think he could be, but I'm not saying he is, and I never will unless evidence dictates it or he can be placed in Riverside.

[Paul_Averly]

My analysis is that Ross was too big to be the same man the many other witnesses saw

Quick question, and I'm looking for a yes or no answer.

If a suspect, who was a large man the same size as Ross, was arrested and found to have in his possession Paul Stines keys, wallet and drivers license, should that suspect be investigated as a possible Zodiac suspect?

YES or NO?

[1doctor]

I'm going to give some thought as to leave this thread up or not. The only reason for a 'PRO' Ross/Zodiac thread, was a place where people wanted to discuss him as a suspect without people sidetracking with their naysaying. However, that doesn't mean there should be an 'anti' Ross thread, as I've never seen an anti Suspect thread on any zodiac site,with the exception of somebody like Stewart & Van Best who are capitalizing on false info, and selling lies to people for profit, those people will be called out.

And for the record, you mentioned some People think Ross is Either Z,or he's not. There are many like myself that think he could be, but I'm not saying he is, and I never will unless evidence dictates it or he can be placed in Riverside.

I only created the thread so the dissent in the general thread can be corralled off here. I agree that there's a lot of arguments in that thread, but I think there's a lot of evidence against Ross that needs to be accounted for, but I don't want folks to say that I'm bringing up stuff to "troll" or whatnot. I would still prefer to dissent in the general thread, but I can see why that's rubbed some folks the wrong way.

Quick question, and I'm looking for a yes or no answer.

If a suspect, who was a large man the same size as Ross, was arrested and found to have in his possession Paul Stines keys, wallet and drivers license, should that suspect be investigated as a possible Zodiac suspect?

YES or NO?

I would say that not only would it warrant investigation, it would be a quick investigation because I figure you would have the Zodiac if that individual had those possessions. I can't figure out why you ask, though. Ross doesn't meet that criteria at all, obviously.


Now here's my yes or no question for you: Do you believe the same witnesses who created the Z composite managed to get all that information but was way off on his weight, assuming it was Ross? If so, why do all Ross's known associates say he was 250lbs, but officer Fouke said the man he saw was 180lbs?

[billbrasky]

Im for one not anti ross sullivan as zodiac just want to look at the evidence as a whole what matches and what does not.
great job digging up tye suspect morf.

[Paul_Averly]

Quick question, and I'm looking for a yes or no answer.

If a suspect, who was a large man the same size as Ross, was arrested and found to have in his possession Paul Stines keys, wallet and drivers license, should that suspect be investigated as a possible Zodiac suspect?

YES or NO?

I would say that not only would it warrant investigation, it would be a quick investigation because I figure you would have the Zodiac if that individual had those possessions. I can't figure out why you ask, though. Ross doesn't meet that criteria at all, obviously.

You just admitted Zodiac could have been as large as Ross. If a strong case of evidence is presented, you are willing to overlook the witness description.

I do believe the witnesses can be accurate with facial features and in-accurate with measurements because they are two different things. Shapes and lines vs volume and weight. You can recognize a triangle in a split second, widows peak, vs a square line head of hair. If you look at a bucket of water for a split second you tell the color the shape, the surface.

But look at that same bucket of water all day. Can you really tell me the weight and the measurements?

[1doctor]

Quick question, and I'm looking for a yes or no answer.

If a suspect, who was a large man the same size as Ross, was arrested and found to have in his possession Paul Stines keys, wallet and drivers license, should that suspect be investigated as a possible Zodiac suspect?

YES or NO?

I would say that not only would it warrant investigation, it would be a quick investigation because I figure you would have the Zodiac if that individual had those possessions. I can't figure out why you ask, though. Ross doesn't meet that criteria at all, obviously.

You just admitted Zodiac could have been as large as Ross. If a strong case of evidence is presented, you are willing to overlook the witness description.

I do believe the witnesses can be accurate with facial features and in-accurate with measurements because they are two different things. Shapes and lines vs volume and weight. You can recognize a triangle in a split second, widows peak, vs a square line head of hair. If you look at a bucket of water for a split second you tell the color the shape, the surface.

But look at that same bucket of water all day. Can you really tell me the weight and the measurements?

I'm sorry bud, but that's not how investigations and evidence work at all. In your hypothetical, there was one piece of evidence that is certifying the individual must be the killer.

In that case, let me ask you an equally ridiculous hypothetical. Let's use your exact same scenario, but the guy is black. Do you bother to investigate?

[Quicktrader]

I think this thread is ok. Couldn't find any solid hint that Ross links to any of the Z victims. Nevertheless he gets way too much attention on this board. I did stop following the Ross discussion for that reason. Meanwhile other candidates are rare or not even looked into at all, e.g. Leonard Bates who had ties to one of the victims father AND lived close to a second victim, even had her last name.

To me it still seems that Ross's last name reminding the Mikado is the only reason why he should have been discussed..nothing solid imo.

QT

[duckking2001]

LOL at this thread.

I've never seen an anti Suspect thread on any zodiac site

Weren't we members of a site that pretty much existed soley for that reason?

There was a thread for Pros and Cons against Sullivan. I didn't like that people were trying to debate and argue against other members items, as I feel that goes against the whole point of such a thread... if every point is going to be inversely argued then you are effectively saying there are no pros or cons, which is obviously not true.

I'm a pessimist, so I would rather hear all the reason why someone makes a bad suspect first. If those are not compelling enough to dismiss them, then I'll listen to why he's a good one.

So in other words I think this kind of thread is OK in general, but not so OK as we maybe don't need even more Ross threads saying what has already been said.

Here's my problem with Ross. He makes a very good Bates suspect. Because of the Zodiac Riverside Connection he is by inference a Zodiac suspect.

Take away Bates and does he still make a good Zodiac suspect? Not at all, IMO. Take away Zodiac and how certain are we that he killed Bates? A good chance, but most would agree that it could have been someone else. So if he didn't kill Bates, but he was still Zodiac...we are back to square one.

I would accept someone who looked very good for Zodiac, less so for Bates. But not the other way around. I think Sullivan needs to be just as strong for Bates AND Zodiac. The total picture doesn't add up for me.

[snooter]

One thing in regards to ross that interests me greatly is his proximity to bates...you all can argue for the next 10 years if bates was at the hands of zodiac...its all circumstantial at this point until further evidence comes to light...morf did a great job on ross..that cant be under stated...we just need more to tie ross to vallejo.....its not going to be easy to find that link..people are gone..memories have faded and records have probably been shredded..still he hold interest for me until riverside pd tosses a bone as to why not...i guess it come down to wether you think bates would have walked into a dark alley with ross..but would that make ross z..i just want her killer found..dont really care if that solves the z or not...she deserves that somebody care at riverside pd even after all these years